Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

[GodsGrace]

From above...


Between Jew and Gentile, yes, which is to say, then, that God's Israel will consist of all ethnicities, an innumerable multitude of folks from every tongue, tribe, and nation. Which... <smile>


That's probably a really good idea. <smile>


No, GodsGrace, I'm not. If you remember, I tried to head off such an ridiculous notion several posts ago. <smile>


Right, which is what I've tried to tell you, both here and in previous posts. Thank you for finally acknowledging it.


Yes, but you don't even realize it. <smile> Ohhhhhh, that'll getcha goin'... You know, I don't think you ever answered my question, "Do you pray for the salvation of others, and if so why?" Actually, I may have asked that of another poster aside from you, but I'd love to hear your answer to both questions there...


No, you're the one ~ and not the only one ~ who has denied it, at least up to now.


LOL!


No. He knows, but He also knows. <smile>


Yes, but only where deserved... <smile> And only a few have been... a bit, um, sarcastic... <smile>


Ohhhhh. My posts are rife with Scripture; they all have been; you cannot make such an assertion with any credibility.


Ah. <smile>


Well I could... but so could you... <smile>

Such anger. Wow.

Grace and peace to you, GG. Especially grace... <smile>

No anger PS.
Only despair at how you change the character of Almighty God with your man-made theology...
which did not exist before the year 1,500AD.

I'd question this if I were you.
The JWs also were invented recently.
The Mormons also were invented recently.
You don't seem to be in good company.

 

[JLB]

Every sick psychopath murderer confesses his sin when he's arrested and bought before the judge, but is he forgiven NO NO NO NO NO NO....... So what are you trying to make that verse say, why don't you just accept Gods Word as it is and move instead of butchering it.

Sounds like more rambling and excuses with no scripture, no have you addressed the scripture I have given.


Look, if you want to follow the teachings of man, have at it... it's your choice.


Jesus warned those who are "in Him", to remain "in Him".


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how scripture instructs us to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



Same Apostle John.
Same Jesus.
Same instructions.
Same Context.




JLB

 

[JLB]

So you turn 1 John 1:9 into "type 2 works salvation." Confess each and every sin that you commit as you commit them (keep a specific inventory) of all of your sins and if you forget a sin you are toast! You need to interpret 1 John 1:9 in contrast with 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10. BTW: All of our sins past, present and future are forgiven. (Acts 13:39)

1 John 1:9 is the truth.

1 John 1:9 illustrates the price Jesus Christ paid for us to continue in righteousness.



If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 1:8 - 2:2

• And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

OK
But I'm sure you know that Perseverance of the Saints implies that it's GOD that actually forces those chosen to persevere.
Because, in that theology, if God chose a person, then He will also irrisestably keep him saved until the end.

I am not sure I understand

Are you talking about the Calvinist persevere? I agree, A person can not persevere until the end, It is God that keeps them, they can not keep themselves.

The saints: Those chosen by God.
Which becomes necessary in the reformed theology because free will is taken away from man.
GOD will force them to persevere until the end.

No. Thats where they got it wrong.. We can not persevere to the end. That would require perfection. which no one has ever attained..

Good point.

BUT, I think they haven't read Calvin's Institutes, Book 3, Chapter 24, Paragraph 8.
I've posted it so many times I almost know it by heart.

Basically, no Calvinist can be sure of his having been chosen.

I would agree.. another major flaw in this theology..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

God HATED Esau?
So God, Who IS LOVE, has hate for some persons?
Jesus taught us LOVE even our enemy and to be PERFECT AS THE FATHER IS PERFECT
Matthew 7:47-48
47“If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

They fail on this point

God told us we must love our parents, our children and our spouses.

Yet he tells us we must hate them.

Luke 14:26
“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

So Is God telling us to sin? Or is this as many have stated a general hebrew term which means to love less. IE. we must love our parents. But we need to love God more(hate) if we want to be his disciple.

In the same taken. God never said he hated ESAU the child. That is a quote out of malichi, where it says he hated those who came from Esau (edom) or the nation. or in effect. love them less that Jacob, who he chose for a special purpose.

You believe God is asking US to do something even HE cannot do?

Common problem within reformed theology.


Jesus said we are to hate even our mother and our father:
Luke 14:26
26“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.


So your belief is that Jesus is teaching that we are to HATE our mother and our father?
Even though one commandment states we are to HONOR (which goes beyond love) our parents?

Yes. Your theology is rather confused to be sure.

lol. I see you already figured this out also. Amazing!!

 

[PinSeeker]

God HATED Esau? So God, Who IS LOVE, has hate for some persons?

Well, good question... In Romans 9:13, Paul clearly says, "As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” He's quoting the prophet Malachi, there, who quotes God as saying that very thing... "I have loved Jacob but Esau I have hated" (Malachi 1:2-3). You kind of have to do something with that...

You say God cannot hate, but that's obviously not true, according to God Himself. Maybe this hate, GodsGrace. is not actually the opposite of, or the absence of, or incompatible with, love. Maybe God ~ Who, yes, is love, and is a loving God and perfect in His love ~ can also, even in His perfect love, hate. Maybe there is a difference between the human, sinful hate that we know and the sinless, righteous, holy hate of God.

And I'll say this, too: Love and hate ~ in both Malachi's and Paul's contexts ~ are not emotions, they are actions. And they have to be perfectly compatible with His perfect justice. God does things for certain people, and he does not do those things for others, and sometimes God does things for those other people that he does not do for the certain people. Certainly, as the Creator, He is has the right to do ~ or not do ~ so.

Think about that, GodsGrace.

Jesus said we are to hate even our mother and our father... So your belief is that Jesus is teaching that we are to HATE our mother and our father?

Well, you're right about what He said, certainly, so yes, that is my belief, because He said it. If you don't, then you're denying what Jesus Himself said for some reason... which, I wouldn't recommend... Do you think Jesus was mistaken, GodsGrace? Or do you think Him to have been lying? Or... something else...? Again, maybe your understanding of this "hate" is... a bit off... See above.

You can stop with your smiling PS.

Ah, okay. <chuckles> I mean, I could, yes... <smile>

I've addressed the above.

No you haven't, and neither do you, yet again, in this very post I'm responding to. Again, which is it GodsGrace? Does our calling on the Name of the Lord depend on God's calling us? Or does God's calling us according to His purpose depend on our calling on the Name of the Lord? If God says ~ and He does ~ "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion," and Paul, citing this, then says, "So..." ~ 'so' indicates an effect or result that directly follows from what has come before ~ "...then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy"... You have to address it, GodsGrace. You can't avoid it. I mean, you can, but doing so is... it's just unavoidable.

Again, your theology causes much confusion.

Ah. <smile> Yes, your confusion... Or is it avoidance...? Or denial...? All of the above, I think. As I said, this confusion is of your own making, really...

GOD CALLS EVERYONE.

Yes, He does. The Gospel is for everyone; everyone is called to repent and believe.

WE MUST RESPOND WITH A YES.

And we ~ His elect ~ will. But yes. So I certainly don't deny what you say here...

A YES RESPONSE MEANS WE ARE CALLING ON GOD.

Absolutely. Again, I certainly don't deny what you say here...

See....simple when theology is correct.

But that's really the problem. Yes, it is very simple. But, GodsGrace, it is not so "simple." Your understanding of these things is far too simple. Not to insult your intelligence at all; I would never do such a thing. You are quite obviously very intelligent. But it is possible to be very, very intelligent and still have an overly simple understanding of certain things.

You'll have to post the scripture I used. (regarding using the word ALSO) I don't change texts..... So you'll have to show me how you THINK I changed something.

You said, GodsGrace (and I quote), "among those that call on the name of the Lord will also be those that God calls."

But the Scripture verse is (verbatim), "And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls."

There is no 'also' (or even a hint in that direction) in Joel 2:32, but you included it in what you said. Was that inadvertent? Well, maybe, but it certainly seems not to be the case. That one little added word... causes some confusion. As I said, you threw that in there, it seems, to support your position. It's really almost inconsequential that you did so, but consequential only because of your intent to change the thrust of that text into something it is obviously not. And actually, you could keep 'also' in there if ~ if ~ you are to understand that God's call on our hearts comes first... and results in the former, our calling on His Name.

And this is the answer to the "which depends on which" question I asked you for at least the second time just above. I am only repeating exactly what Paul said in Romans 9:16 ~ which Paul is able to say because he has referred directly to Joel 2:32 to support his assertion ~ that "it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."

So here you 've created yet another conflict....

No, I pointed out the conflict you've inadvertently presented.

Is it John 6:44 or is it John 12:32 Which one is correct Pinseeker? What is YOUR resolution to the problem you've caused?

Are they not both correct, GodsGrace? Are you deeming one correct and the other not correct? Because... that would be a problem... Do you not believe Jesus in both cases? Or do you think Jesus to nullify, by saying what He did in John 12:32 ~ "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself" ~ what He said in John 6:44 ~ "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day"? There is no 'problem,' unless one says one is true and the other is not, and that seems to be you, at least inadvertently. You're right, though, that a resolution is required. And I've said this many times, that Jesus, in John 12:32, is not woodenly talking about all people, but all those whom the Father has given Him, who come to Him because the Father has drawn them, and all types of people... Gentile as well as Jew. Jesus ~ in both verses ~ is talking about a select group, God's elect. This is the resolution; there is no "problem."

I've already explained more than once....

Not... well... <smile> If you did at all... <smile>

Seems you're obsessed with Joel. You must find some kind of comfort in that ONE VERSE.

I find great comfort in all of God's Word.

You state that there are TWO CALLS..... Could you please explain the two using scripture? Thanks.

Well, again, you say that as if I haven't... <smile> But sure; I'm delighted to do so.

You don't use syntax...very difficult to reply to you. If you wish replies to the above, please provide syntax.

I don't use syntax? What do you even mean by that? I mean, certainly I know what syntax is, but... Do you mean... 'context'...?

I cannot go back and forth to see what I wrote.

Ah well yes, I think you did mean 'context.' Well... you can... but I can understand why you don't want to... <smile>

I have reminded you from time to time of what you yourself have said, but I'm not going to make a habit of that. I trust you can carry your end of the conversation, and part of that is remembering what you have said. <smile> And I would not ask you to do anything that I myself don't do <smile>. That would be very, um, hypocritical of me...

BTW,,, I'd never ask the last question you posted above....

Right, I know, but in effect, you inadvertently are: By asking (and I quote), "What do Greeks have to do with OUR salvation?", then, assuming you are like me a Gentile, you're pretty much ~ in effect ~ asking here "What do I have to do with my salvation?" But this is really neither her nor there and not needing any further discussion.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

No anger PS.

Ah, well either you fooled me or you're fooling yourself, it seems. <chuckles>

Only despair at how you change the character of Almighty God with your man-made theology...

We think the very same of each other, GodsGrace. I mean, I know very well you would scoff at such a notion, but you make God's Word out to be really what man has done for God ~ and in effect man-centered ~ rather than what God has done for man and thus God-centered, which ~ again, in effect ~ is to turn the whole of God's Word upside down.

which did not exist before the year 1,500AD.

Ah, well if you're talking specifically about Calvinism, again, Calvin himelf, as I said, credits Augustine of Hippo, who lived from A.D. 354 to A.D. 430, for heavily influencing virtually everything he wrote and taught. And the whole purpose of the Reformation ~ which began in earnest on October 31, 1517 with Martin Luther's posting of his ninety-five theses on the door of the All Saints' Church in Wittenburg, Germany... although there were, even prior to Luther and the other Reformers earlier reform movements within Western (European) Christianity ~ was to redirect, or return, Christianity to its Biblical roots. One of its five chief tenets "Solas," as they are called, is Sola Scriptura, or "by Scripture alone," which is the idea that the Bible, God's Word, is the sole infallible source of authority for Christian faith and practice.

I'd question this if I were you.

Yeah so I think you really should question what you think I should question...

The JWs also were invented recently.

1831, yes.

The Mormons also were invented recently.

in the 1820s, yes.

JWs and Mormons are... caught up in cults. Which I think we agree on. The Enlightenment brought about some terrible things...

You don't seem to be in good company.

Well I am, but certainly not the JWs or the Mormons... or the Catholics... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Hmmm...

...Perseverance of the Saints implies that it's GOD that actually forces those chosen to persevere.

We persevere to the end, to the day of Christ, because it is God's power at work in us that enables us and preserves us rather than our own. This is the Holy Spirit's ~ God's ~ continuing work in us. Having "heard the word of truth, the gospel of (our) salvation, and (having) believed in Him, (we) were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it..." He causes us to want to persevere and then enables us to do it, even ensuring that we will not fail.

Because, in that theology, if God chose a person, then He will also irresistably keep him saved until the end.

No, you're conflating two things.

1. Regarding what is irresistible, being born again of the Spirit is irresistible. As Jesus says to Nicodemus, "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:8).

2. Regarding our ~ and it is our ~ perseverance, Peter says it as well as anywhere else, that we have been "born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for (us), who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:3-5)

So again... and these are not my words... "...He..." (God, of course) "...Who began a good work in you will..." ~ WILL ~ "...bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Philippians 1:6) And then shortly after that, Paul says, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

And then Jude 24... God "able to keep (us) from stumbling and to present (us) blameless before the presence of His glory with great joy..."

This is perseverance of the saints. It's the power and work of God in us by His Spirit, not of man in and of himself, although, certainly, the saved man does it.

The saints: Those chosen by God.

Absolutely. His elect. We do not elect ourselves.

Which becomes necessary in the reformed theology because free will is taken away from man.

Hmmm, well, by your own definition, if man elects himself ~ if His being of God's elect is solely due to his own choice ~ does our choosing Him not then obligate God to execute His salvation and thus ~ in the very same way you speak of this "taking away" of free will ~ take away the free will of God Himself?

It is not about man's will at all. The salvation of man by God is a creative act ~ a re-creation of the inner man, the spirit, which previously was dead... making him a new creation, as Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:17-18...

"...if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to Himself..."​

God is the Creator. And that takes us back again to Jesus's reply to His disciples, who had plainly asked, "Who then can be saved?" And as you well know, I'm sure, Jesus replied, "What is impossible with man is possible with God" (Luke 18:27)

GOD will force them to persevere until the end.

Enables. Keeps them from stumbling (Jude 24). As a father helps his child. In His power.

I think they haven't read Calvin's Institutes, Book 3, Chapter 24, Paragraph 8.

Ah, well let's read it together:

8. The expression of our Savior, "Many are called, but few are chosen," (Mt. 22:14), is also very improperly interpreted (see Book 3, chap. 2, sec. 11, 12). There will be no ambiguity in it, if we attend to what our former remarks ought to have made clear--viz. that there are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness. Now, our Lord seeing that the gospel was published far and wide, was despised by multitudes, and justly valued by few, describes God under the character of a King, who, preparing a great feast, sends his servants all around to invite a great multitude, but can only obtain the presence of a very few, because almost all allege causes of excuse; at length, in consequence of their refusal, he is obliged to send his servants out into the highways to invite every one they meet. It is perfectly clear, that thus far the parable is to be understood of external calling. He afterwards adds, that God acts the part of a kind entertainer, who goes round his table and affably receives his guests; but still if he finds any one not adorned with the nuptial garment, he will by no means allow him to insult the festivity by his sordid dress. I admit that this branch of the parable is to be understood of those who, by a profession of faith, enter the Church, but are not at all invested with the sanctification of Christ. Such disgraces to his Church, such cankers God will not always tolerate, but will cast them forth as their turpitude deserves. Few, then, out of the great number of called are chosen; the calling, however, not being of that kind which enables believers to judge of their election. The former call is common to the wicked, the latter brings with it the spirit of regeneration, which is the earnest and seal of the future inheritance by which our hearts are sealed unto the day of the Lord (Eph. 1:13, 14). In one word, while hypocrites pretend to piety, just as if they were true worshipers of God, Christ declares that they will ultimately be ejected from the place which they improperly occupy, as it is said in the psalm, "Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill? He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart," (Psalm 15:1, 2). Again in another passage, "This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob," (Psalm 24:6). And thus the Spirit exhorts believers to patience, and not to murmur because Ishmaelites are mingled with them in the Church since the mask will at length be torn off, and they will be ejected with disgrace.

I've posted it so many times I almost know it by heart.

Ah, "by heart"... interesting. I'll get to that in a moment... :) But as for what you say here, maybe so, but I haven't seen anybody post it, much less you.

Basically, no Calvinist can be sure of his having been chosen.

So, "by heart"... Yes, I know you meant from memory. :) But that kind of presents a bit of a quandary... :)

So, you see what I bolded above. This inward (second, per above) call is of God by His Spirit ~ "by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts"... What is in our heart, GodsGrace, follows, inevitably, in our minds. And this goes back to the Bible's definition of faith, which... Hebrews 11:1... is the assurance (of God) of things hoped for and the conviction (by the Spirit, Who convicts) of things unseen. So yes, anyone ~ if he truly has God's gift of faith ~ can be and will be absolutely sure of His having been chosen. This is what Biblical faith is, for crying out loud. :)

And I would submit that if anyone is worried about having been chosen...

Aside: Which is to say they may indeed struggle with this assurance in themselves, which they probably will, because none of us is perfect in anything, including belief or assurance... thus we should pray, like the father in Mark 9:24, "Lord, I believe, help my unbelief!"...​

...that is proof of their having been chosen. We do not have faith in our faith; that's not really faith at all. We have faith because it's been given to us and is in a Person, the Person of Christ Jesus. Jesus is the Author and Perfecter of our faith (Hebrews 12:2). Even our belief is the gift of God:

"Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, 'Who do people say that the Son of Man is?' And they said, 'Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.' (Jesus) said to them, 'But who do you say that I am?' Simon Peter replied, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' And Jesus answered him, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father Who is in heaven." (Matthew 16:13-17)​

What Gamaliel says in Acts 5 is a general Biblical truth and is very applicable here, too, that if anything is of man, it will fail, but if it is of God, it will not fail (Acts 5:38-39)

Soli Del Gloria!

Grace and peace to all.

 

[PinSeeker]

Are you talking about the Calvinist persevere? I agree, A person can not persevere until the end, It is God that keeps them, they can not keep themselves... Thats where they got it wrong. We can not persevere to the end. That would require perfection. which no one has ever attained. I would agree. another major flaw in this theology.

Um, EG, that is the "Calvinist persevere." We persevere, but only in God's power; it is He Who keeps us. That's... kind of funny, actually... but great. Okay, so at least you're a 1-point Calvinist! <chuckles> Much more importantly, that's the Biblical doctrine of the perseverance of the saints of God. So... great!

God told us we must love our parents, our children and our spouses. Yet he tells us we must hate them.

That's right... So we ~ we, as in all us Christians ~ have to make sense of that somehow. I mean that's the only real presupposition we can make, that both are true, because God said both things. So... :)

So Is God telling us to sin?

Right, a rhetorical question, which... yeah, no, of course not...

Or is this as many have stated a general hebrew term which means to love less. IE. we must love our parents. But we need to love God more (hate) if we want to be his disciple.

I don't absolutely disagree with what you say here, EG, but would rather state in this way:

Our love for our parents, or any others for that matter, even ourselves, must pale in comparison to our love for Him, so much as to even be considered a hate in comparison.​

Perhaps you agree... Anyway, Jesus ~ God the Son of course ~ says, in reply to which is the great commandment in the Law:

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets" (Matthew 22:27-40).​

What's interesting is how He commands us to love Him ("with all our heart and with all our soul and with all our mind") compared to how He commands us to love all others, which includes our parents ("as ourselves"). So, rather than just 'less,' I would rather way 'to a much lesser degree.' It might help to think of 'serve' as a synonym for 'love,' here, which you can absolutely do... and a number of other things, actually. But serving God should be a much, even infinitely, higher priority than serving others, even our parents. There are also contained in this love/hate dichotomy the same ideas as choosing and not choosing... If we are commanded to do something by God and we are commanded to do something contrary by our parents (or anyone else), to do something in conflict with or opposition to what God commands, then we are always to choose... and thus love... God rather than choosing/obeying/loving our parents (or anyone else).

Perhaps you agree with that too...

In the same taken. God never said he hated ESAU the child. That is a quote out of Malachi, where it says he hated those who came from Esau (Edom) or the nation. or in effect. love them less that Jacob, who he chose for a special purpose.

And I agree with this, Eternally Grateful, especially the very end of what you say here about choosing them for a special purpose... and in choosing Jacob, purposefully did not choose Esau. Now, I'm going to add something in a moment, but first, God never specifies Esau of any age, but only says, "Esau I have hated." The lack of specification there speaks volumes. There is no condition; He does not say why, but rather just that He did. In addition to that, God says how He has hated Esau, which unmistakably is a very concrete action that has taken a specific form; God has "laid waste to Esau's hill country." God gives us a little insight into what this looks like by saying Edom is shattered and in ruins. It probably looks somewhat like Job's life after Satan was allowed (by God) to test Job; Job had nothing, neither possessions nor family, and his life was in utter ruin. Now Job recovered of course, but here, even further, God says of Edom that if he endeavors to rebuild, He will do the same again, "tear down, and they will be called ‘the wicked country,’ and ‘the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.'"

Yes, He's speaking of the corporate entities of Jacob and Esau, but certainly the individuals who make up those corporate entities/nations also. This cannot be avoided.

And now back to that something I was going to add... for free... <chuckles>

The Israel of the Old Testament is only part of ~ so "lesser Israel" in that sense ~ and points to the full reality ~ so Greater Israel in that sense ~ of the New, which is all of God's Elect, which is ~ will ultimately be ~ an innumerable multitude of people hailing from every tongue, tribe, and nation ~ Gentile as well as Jew. And these will be the true Jews of God...

...the people Paul is speaking of in Romans 2:28-29, those who "are Jews inwardly, where circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter, whose praise is not from man but from God," all those in Christ, which includes the Israelite believers of old and all those who, having been drawn by the Father, come to Jesus, regardless of ethnicity.​

...and together the Israel of God...

...all those according Romans 9:24 whom God calls, "not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles"... those Paul is still talking about in Romans 11:25-26, after "the fullness of the Gentiles has been brought in and the partial hardening that is on Israel at present is removed, thus all Israel will be saved."​

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Sounds like more rambling and excuses with no scripture, no have you addressed the scriptur

Look, if you want to follow the teachings of man, have at it... it's your choice.


Jesus warned those who are "in Him", to remain "in Him".


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how scripture instructs us to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



Same Apostle John.
Same Jesus.
Same instructions.
Same Context.




JLB

Stop making up lies, Jesus never gave a warning to anyone to abide in Him.

Why do you have to add to Gods Word, God warned that those who do this will be cast into hell yet you keep on doing it with no fear of God at all. That what the pride people do.

How do you take an observation and turn it into a warning, without butchering Gods Word.

If anyone is outside of Christ, they are burned up, so they were never in Christ to begin with. You can't abide in Christ unless you are in Him, Christ was saying those outside of Him, who do not abide in Him will be burned up. He never suggested that He would amputate His limbs and throw them on the fire.

He who abides in Him, does so by His Spirit, "WHOM HE HAS GIVEN US".

Nobody can abide in Christ, unless we die and God makes us alive with His Spirit. You're spirit must be dead before you can abide in Him. So it's silly to suggest that Gods commands Himself to remain abiding in someone. You either have the Holy Spirit or you don't. If you don't it's impossible to abide in Him, if you do it means God killed you and created a new person and a new spirit.
There's no personal choice of obedience involved here, God doesn't ask those He kills if they want to be saved, He just does it. Then you will abide while kicking and screaming but you can't escape abiding.

 

[PinSeeker]

Stop making up lies...

I don't think he's "making up lies," Christian Soldier. I think we all should quit throwing around these 'lying' or 'deliberately twisting God's Word' or... other like allegations around. I don't mean to single you out, but still... yeah.

If anyone is outside of Christ, they are burned up, so they were never in Christ to begin with. You can't abide in Christ unless you are in Him, Christ was saying those outside of Him, who do not abide in Him will be burned up. He never suggested that He would amputate His limbs and throw them on the fire.

Hmmm... "burned up"... That sounds dangerously close to annihilationism, which I hope is not the case...

He who abides in Him, does so by His Spirit, "WHOM HE HAS GIVEN US".

Exactly. Much agreed.

Nobody can abide in Christ, unless we die and God makes us alive with His Spirit.

Well, nobody will abide in Christ until we are made alive by the Spirit ~ in which case we are no longer dead in spirit and having as our father the devil (John 10) but then alive in spirit and alive to God. But even through all of this we are alive physically... Right? Well, yes...

Your spirit must be dead before you can abide in Him.

Hmmm, I would say it's very much the other way around...

You either have the Holy Spirit or you don't. If you don't it's impossible to abide in Him, if you do it means God killed you and created a new person and a new spirit.

You'd have to clarify what you mean by God "killing us"... <chuckle> ...and "creating a new person," I guess... <smile>

Certainly we are to "die to sin and live to God," as Paul says in Romans 6:10, but this certainly does not in any way mean we should commit suicide... <smile> I would state it this way... and perhaps you would agree... that, rather, by (as Ezekiel puts it, quoting God Himself):

"...remov(ing) our heart of stone and give(ing) us a heart of flesh, by put(ting) a new spirit within (us), by put(ting) His Spirit within us, He (thereby) causes us to walk in His statutes and be careful to obey His rules" (Ezekiel 36:26-27).​

In this way we are freed from slavery to unrighteousness. As Paul says:

"We who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which we were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness... just as we once presented our members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so we now present our members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification" (Romans 6:17-18).​

Right?

There's no personal choice of obedience involved here, God doesn't ask those He kills if they want to be saved, He just does it. Then you will abide while kicking and screaming but you can't escape abiding.

Ugh... I mean, right, sort of, but that's just a... well, sorry, a poor way of stating it. Yes, He "just does it"... as Jesus tells Nicodemus:

"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:8).​

But... <smile> ...there is a personal choice of obedience, but that happens because we have this new spirit that God has given us, because we have His Spirit within us (see above). Again, by putting His Spirit within us, He thereby causes us to walk in His statutes and be careful to obey His rules. So... okay, we "can't escape abiding," but 'can't' in the sense that we then willingly abide because of this new spirit in us, because we have the Spirit.

Perhaps you agree...?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[mailmandan]

1 John 1:9 is the truth.

1 John 1:9 illustrates the price Jesus Christ paid for us to continue in righteousness.



If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 1:8 - 2:2

• And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Yes, 1 John 1:9 is truth as I already thoroughly explained to you in posts #1,052 and #1,053. Go back and read my posts again and don't forget to read 1 John 1:9 in contrast with 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10 this time. Jesus is the propitiation for our sins (Romans 3:24-28) and not inventory confession "type 2 works salvation."

 

[JLB]

Stop making up lies, Jesus never gave a warning to anyone to abide in Him.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


If anyone does not abide in Me ...

 

[JLB]

Yes, 1 John 1:9 is truth as I already thoroughly explained to you in posts #1,052 and #1,053. Go back and read my posts again and don't forget to read 1 John 1:9 in contrast with 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10 this time. Jesus is the propitiation for our sins (Romans 3:24-28) and not inventory confession "type 2 works salvation."

Please show me a post where I used the phrase "works salvation".

Otherwise repent for lying about me.

• By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.

Do you believe the Apostle John is teaching "works salvation"?

• For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:2-3

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, 1 John 1:9 is truth as I already thoroughly explained to you in posts #1,052 and #1,053. Go back and read my posts again and don't forget to read 1 John 1:9 in contrast with 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10 this time. Jesus is the propitiation for our sins (Romans 3:24-28) and not inventory confession "type 2 works salvation."

You speak as though only You have the true understanding of scripture and everyone else is wrong.
Would you care to give a definition of type 1 and type 2 works salvation?

BTW, the NT teaches that we are not saved by works.

It also teaches obedience to God.
Do you consider this obedience to be a work?

Perhaps You should read what others thoroughly explain to You....

 

[GodsGrace]

Stop making up lies, Jesus never gave a warning to anyone to abide in Him.

Why do you have to add to Gods Word, God warned that those who do this will be cast into hell yet you keep on doing it with no fear of God at all. That what the pride people do.

How do you take an observation and turn it into a warning, without butchering Gods Word.

If anyone is outside of Christ, they are burned up, so they were never in Christ to begin with. You can't abide in Christ unless you are in Him, Christ was saying those outside of Him, who do not abide in Him will be burned up. He never suggested that He would amputate His limbs and throw them on the fire.

He who abides in Him, does so by His Spirit, "WHOM HE HAS GIVEN US".

Nobody can abide in Christ, unless we die and God makes us alive with His Spirit. You're spirit must be dead before you can abide in Him. So it's silly to suggest that Gods commands Himself to remain abiding in someone. You either have the Holy Spirit or you don't. If you don't it's impossible to abide in Him, if you do it means God killed you and created a new person and a new spirit.
There's no personal choice of obedience involved here, God doesn't ask those He kills if they want to be saved, He just does it. Then you will abide while kicking and screaming but you can't escape abiding.

What you've stated is stunning.
Computer is down so I cannot write too much.

Let me just say that you're starting an entirely new denomination.

This happens when the Bible is not understood.
As is also the case with JWs and Mormons.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

all Christians ought to be in a constant state of alarm

? Or:

"Be careful [ anxious ] for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication​

with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God." (Philippians 4:6 AV)​

​

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one​

body; and be ye thankful. Let The Word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom;​

teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,​

singing with Grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed,​

do all in The Name of The Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father By Him."​

(Colossians 3:15-17 AV)​

​

Thus, I see nothing about "being constantly alarmed, and admonishing the brethren,
about conspiracy theories/politics of the world."

I have decided to follow Jesus?​

Amen.

 

[mailmandan]

Please show me a post where I used the phrase "works salvation".

Otherwise repent for lying about me.

• By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.

Do you believe the Apostle John is teaching "works salvation"?

• For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:2-3

We already went over this. You sound like a robot.

 

[mailmandan]

You speak as though only You have the true understanding of scripture and everyone else is wrong.
Would you care to give a definition of type 1 and type 2 works salvation?

BTW, the NT teaches that we are not saved by works.

It also teaches obedience to God.
Do you consider this obedience to be a work?

Perhaps You should read what others thoroughly explain to You....

All believers have a true understanding of the gospel yet none of us perfectly understood everything. Type 1 works salvation means initially saved by faith and works and type 2 works salvation means initially saved by faith, not works, then ultimately saved by works/salvation maintained by works. Obedience which follows saving faith in Christ is works. I thoroughly read what others explain to me and I've heard it all before having been a member of multiple Christian forum sites for over 12 years.

 

[Christian Soldier]

I don't think he's "making up lies," Christian Soldier. I think we all should quit throwing around these 'lying' or 'deliberately twisting God's Word' or... other like allegations around. I don't mean to single you out, but still... yeah.


Hmmm... "burned up"... That sounds dangerously close to annihilationism, which I hope is not the case...


Exactly. Much agreed.


Well, nobody will abide in Christ until we are made alive by the Spirit ~ in which case we are no longer dead in spirit and having as our father the devil (John 10) but then alive in spirit and alive to God. But even through all of this we are alive physically... Right? Well, yes...


Hmmm, I would say it's very much the other way around...


You'd have to clarify what you mean by God "killing us"... <chuckle> ...and "creating a new person," I guess... <smile>

Certainly we are to "die to sin and live to God," as Paul says in Romans 6:10, but this certainly does not in any way mean we should commit suicide... <smile> I would state it this way... and perhaps you would agree... that, rather, by (as Ezekiel puts it, quoting God Himself):

"...remov(ing) our heart of stone and give(ing) us a heart of flesh, by put(ting) a new spirit within (us), by put(ting) His Spirit within us, He (thereby) causes us to walk in His statutes and be careful to obey His rules" (Ezekiel 36:26-27).​

In this way we are freed from slavery to unrighteousness. As Paul says:

"We who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which we were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness... just as we once presented our members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so we now present our members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification" (Romans 6:17-18).​

Right?


Ugh... I mean, right, sort of, but that's just a... well, sorry, a poor way of stating it. Yes, He "just does it"... as Jesus tells Nicodemus:

"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:8).​

But... <smile> ...there is a personal choice of obedience, but that happens because we have this new spirit that God has given us, because we have His Spirit within us (see above). Again, by putting His Spirit within us, He thereby causes us to walk in His statutes and be careful to obey His rules. So... okay, we "can't escape abiding," but 'can't' in the sense that we then willingly abide because of this new spirit in us, because we have the Spirit.

Perhaps you agree...?

Grace and peace to you.

He may not be deliberately making up lies, but that's what I call it when someone rejects what God said and twist's the verse to make it say something completely different.

Christ was describing what happens to those who join His Body (the Church) but don't produce good fruit. Anyone can join their local Church if they apply for membership and behave correctly, but the Ministers of that Church don't know if that person is a child of God or a child of the Devil.

There was a Devil in the congregation, of the first Church. Jesus established the first local Church body with the Apostles and He said "one of you is a Devil", so we see that Devils can infiltrate any Church.

So the point of Jon 15 is to say, if you abide (stay in Christ) it means you are a true believer. But if you are a Judas Iscariot and do not abide in Me, you will be cut off and burned in hell. So all those Church goers who made a false profession of faith will be exposed because they won't abide/endure to the end, as true believers do.

We were born dead in trespassed and sin, I don't think God was fooling around when He said that.
If we were born, dead then we must be born again to life. There's no such thing as antihalation, in the Bible. Mans understanding of the word death is very different to the way God uses the word.

God speaks about 2 deaths for unbelievers, they died once when Adam sinned and they die a second time when they are cast into the lake of fire. Death means a separation from God who is the giver and sustainer of life. The death and life God speaks of are not, physical/biological life or non existent life. He's speaking about the eternal spiritual state of the person.

Sinners desperately hang on to the idea that they will be annihilated and cease to exist after this life, but they are in for a horrific eternal shock.

Saved people obey the gospel, out of a grateful heart. We are so thankful to have been saved by God that we want to obey and serve Him, with the help of the Holy Spirit of 'course. But those who believe they will be saved for choosing Jesus, and doing good works to stay saved are rejecting Gods means of salvation.