Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

[JLB]

Here is a bigger truth. If we use your interpretation you better confess ever sin. Otherwise your still lost.

I confess my sins and ask God to search my heart and reveal to me any hidden sin.

I reject the false teaching that all our future sins are forgiven, so we have no need to confess our sins.


Spending time in His Presence is how to live according to the Spirit.


If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Galatians 5:25

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I confess my sins and ask God to search my heart and reveal to me any hidden sin.

A babe in Christ does not even know what sin is. He may know the big ones. But there are so many sins a babe can not possibly know let alone confess

I reject the false teaching that all our future sins are forgiven, so we have no need to confess our sins.

Then Jesus better plan on dying in the cross again because if he did not die for your future sin you have no hope. None of us do.

Spending time in His Presence is how to live according to the Spirit.

Never denied this I actuall agree

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Galatians 5:25

Yep

But that will not keep us saved. Either Jesus paid it all or we are under law. You confessing some sin will not pay for that sin. You could confess it all day long it would still
Condemn you where you stand apart from Grace

 

[JLB]

A babe in Christ does not even know what sin is. He may know the big ones. But there are so many sins a babe can not possibly know let alone confess

Amen.

I agree.

The Lord doesn't expect as much from a babe as He does from those who have been in Him for a season.


To whom much is given, much is expected.

Jesus taught them the truth of John 15 almost 3 years after they started following Him.

 

[JLB]

Yep

But that will not keep us saved. Either Jesus paid it all or we are under law. You confessing some sin will not pay for that sin. You could confess it all day long it would still
Condemn you where you stand apart from Grace

Please use scripture.

Paul give a clear contrast between those who walk according to the Spirit and those walk according to the flesh.


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21

• Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

will not inherit the kingdom of God = go to the everlasting fires of hell




JLB

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Amen.

I agree.

The Lord doesn't expect as much from a babe as He does from those who have been in Him for a season.


To whom much is given, much is expected.

Jesus taught them the truth of John 15 almost 3 years after they started following Him.

You just proved my point,,thank you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Please use scripture.

Paul give a clear contrast between those who walk according to the Spirit and those walk according to the flesh.


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21

• Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

will not inherit the kingdom of God = go to the everlasting fires of hell




JLB

John said whoever is born of good can not practice sin.

so nice try,

 

[GodsGrace]

God predestines *** to be conformed to his image.

yes, the question is who?

The calvinist would say God just randomly chose people.. or something to that affect.

As for me, I would point to Many scriptures which tell us most notably john 6, to find out what was the will of God.. WHo are those he chose to be conformed to the image of his son?

John 6: 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

The will of God is all who are given to CHrist will never be lost. and he will raise them on the last day

but who are they? Just a random group of people? as the calvinist says? No

40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Its those who see and believe, And guess what. In Gods foreknowledge he knew who those people would be, and predestined them to be conformed to the image of his son.

Wee if we just set aside our preconceived beliefs, and actually read the word, it becomes clear..

Agreed 100%.
Sorry EG. I just needed clarification.

 

[GodsGrace]

Lets just take this example. foreknowledge, to know before hand, If we take any other meaning, then we most likely do not understand it.

We can even use it in our daily lives, or when plainly talking. Example. to persevere means to (taken from a dictionary)
continue in a course of action even in the face of difficulty or with little or no prospect of success.
"his family persevered with his treatment"

Ie, its alot of hard work to persevere through this time of struggle or tribulation

or in another dictionary - to persist in a state, enterprise, or undertaking in spite of counterinfluences, opposition, or discouragement.

Again, massively hard work, Yet we have in reformed theology (Calvinism) as part of their tulip, that the P stands for persevere until the end. So you see, For a theology group, who is so afraid of thinking even faith is a work of man, and can not be part of the born again process. to say we will persevere (struggle. work mightily, in spite of everything against us) until the end, Is taking a word totally out of context. or at the least, is totally contradicting their own theology

OK
But I'm sure you know that Perseverance of the Saints implies that it's GOD that actually forces those chosen to persevere.
Because, in that theology, if God chose a person, then He will also irrisestably keep him saved until the end.

The saints: Those chosen by God.
Which becomes necessary in the reformed theology because free will is taken away from man.
GOD will force them to persevere until the end.

Good point.

BUT, I think they haven't read Calvin's Institutes, Book 3, Chapter 24, Paragraph 8.
I've posted it so many times I almost know it by heart.

Basically, no Calvinist can be sure of his having been chosen.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ah. Yes. :) I mean, this thing is... these things are, actually... very straight already, God's Grace. But okay...


Absolutely.


In a certain sense, yes. But in Paul's context regarding God's foreknowledge of those who are in Christ in Romans 8 ~ which is further defined as His elect in Romans 9 through 11 ~ it is a select group who are foreknown.

You mean God only FOREKNOWS whom He will pick to be saved?
Can He not figure out that the rest will not be chosen?
Does he have no common sense to figure this simple problem out?

Anyway, Romans 9 to 11 is speaking about corporal salvation and not individual salvation.
Every Christian denomination knows this except for the reformed...

Paul is speaking about the JEWS and how God is going to use them.

It is terribly ironic that we both "accuse" each other of this very same thing, yes?

I was accusing you of changing the character of God.
YOU cannot accuse ME of doing that.

Let's find out about God's character:

God is a LOVING GOD.
1 John 4:16b
God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

God is MERCIFUL:
Luke 6:36
Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.

God is JUST:
Deuteronomy 32:4
“The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he."


So that is the character of God.

You profer a God that is loveless because He does not give to everyone the opportunity to be saved.

You profer a God that is merciless because He will send most to hell for no apparent reason.

You profer a God that is not just because He does not give to each one what that person deserves.

And please don't start with the tirade that we all deserve hell.
If you do it means you don't know what JUSTICE means.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Here is the truth -

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

Every sick psychopath murderer confesses his sin when he's arrested and bought before the judge, but is he forgiven NO NO NO NO NO NO....... So what are you trying to make that verse say, why don't you just accept Gods Word as it is and move instead of butchering it.

 

[mailmandan]

Please use scripture.

Paul give a clear contrast between those who walk according to the Spirit and those walk according to the flesh.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21

• Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

will not inherit the kingdom of God = go to the everlasting fires of hell

JLB

Do you understand the contrast between believers and unbelievers? Notice in Galatians 5:21 that Paul said those who practice such things (sins) will not inherit the kingdom of God.

In 1 John 3:9, we read - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Also notice in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that Paul gives a similar list of sins that are practiced by the unrighteous. In contrast with the righteous in verse 11 - And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[mailmandan]

Here is the truth -

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

1 John 1:9 is in contrast with 1 John 1:8 -if we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us and with 1 John 1:10 - if we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

 

[mailmandan]

I confess my sins and ask God to search my heart and reveal to me any hidden sin.

I reject the false teaching that all our future sins are forgiven, so we have no need to confess our sins.

So you turn 1 John 1:9 into "type 2 works salvation." Confess each and every sin that you commit as you commit them (keep a specific inventory) of all of your sins and if you forget a sin you are toast! You need to interpret 1 John 1:9 in contrast with 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10. BTW: All of our sins past, present and future are forgiven. (Acts 13:39)

 

[PinSeeker]

You mean God only FOREKNOWS whom He will pick to be saved?

No, He foreknows only those whom he has chosen ~ His elect. From before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1).

Can He not figure out that the rest will not be chosen? Does he have no common sense to figure this simple problem out?

LOL! He has chosen some from before the foundation of the world ~ these are vessels of mercy ~ and the others He has not ~ these are vessels of wrath. This is His purpose of election.

Anyway, Romans 9 to 11 is speaking about corporal salvation and not individual salvation.

Both, actually.

Every Christian denomination knows this except for the reformed...

<chuckles>

Paul is speaking about the JEWS and how God is going to use them.

Well, I agree, but remember who Paul has previously said who true Jews are:

"For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God."

And so, leading this whole thing about the elect off, Paul says, "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel" (Romans 9:6). He's saying there, GodsGrace, that not all people we suppose to be Jews (based on ethnicity) are really Jews ~ God's Jews ~ at all.

I was accusing you of changing the character of God.

Oh yes, I'm well aware... <smile>

YOU cannot accuse ME of doing that.

I can, I did, and you are. I would say the same thing back to you, but you can and did...

Oh wait... in what sense so you mean 'cannot'...? See what I did there? <smile>

Let's find out about God's character...

You mean as if He's not clearly revealed it in all He's said? <smile> Well, okay, yes, let's... <smile>

God is a LOVING GOD.
1 John 4:16b
God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

Well, yes, and this same John, a mere three verses later, says, "We love because God first loved us"...

God is MERCIFUL:
Luke 6:36
Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.

Absolutely, but remember, as both Moses and Paul say ~ both quoting God Himself ~ "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." This does not mean that God has no mercy at all regarding some, but rather that He doesn't have the same salvific mercy ~ His mercy and compassion regarding His purpose of election, which is exactly what Paul is talking about in Romans 19:14-18 ~ on some as He does others.

God is JUST:
Deuteronomy 32:4
“The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he."

And does He have the kind of justice you think He ought to have, GodsGrace? Like, since He is a God of love, He should just dismiss it all and save everybody? That would be justice? Do you (or any person) define 'justice' for God? No, rather, God would have been absolutely, perfectly just to send us all to hell, because that is what we are all fully deserving of. But then there is His grace, which we cannot forget. And again, we cannot say He gives us this salvific grace merely because we made some decision in and of ourselves or anything else we did, else ~ as Paul says in Romans 11:6 ~ "if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace."

So that is the character of God.

Hm, well, that is the character of God. <smile>

You profer a God that is loveless because He does not give to everyone the opportunity to be saved.

Not true at all... (although... what's 'profer'? <smile>

You profer a God that is merciless because He will send most to hell for no apparent reason.

Also not true at all... (although... what's 'profer'?) <smile> No, if not for His mercy, none of us would be saved; all would be sent to hell, because that's what we all deserve...

You profer a God that is not just because He does not give to each one what that person deserves.

Ah! Well... (again, what's 'profer'?) <smile> Anyway... <smile> ...I would certainly join with Paul and say, "Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means!" I thank God that He does not exact His perfect justice on at least some but instead granted them, in His grace, His mercy. From all eternity, He made a free-will decision to preserve a remnant for Himself. He was not obligated to do so, else... again... God's grace, which is the unmerited favor of God, would not be grace.

As I have said several times, this is really where it all starts; some just cannot bring themselves to truly understand the doctrine we call "original sin" ~ "sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin..." (Romans 5:12a) ~ and accept the true, far-reaching ramifications of the fall of Adam and Eve ~ "...and so death spread to all men..." (Romans 5:12b) ~ the casting out of Adam and Eve from Eden and the resulting natural state of man. This is what we Christians are brought from, death in sin, and thus brought to, life in Christ (Ephesians 2:4-8). As Paul goes on to say here in Romans 5, "...as one trespass..." Adam's "...led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness..." Jesus's "...leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous" (Romans 5:18-19).

And notice the "leads to justification and life for all men" regarding God's justification... Do not confuse this and think it to be that He gives... or effects... or that all men obtain... this justification and life, but rather that the atonement makes possible the justification of any man. Jesus's atonement was certainly sufficient to save all, but effectual only for some, and this was because God decreed such ~ and which; some are vessels of mercy ~ made for honorable use ~ and others are vessels of wrath ~ made for dishonorable use ~ from all eternity.

So again, thank God He does not give to all what they really deserve, else no one would be saved.

And please don't start with the tirade that we all deserve hell.

Ohhhh, too late for that. <smile> But certainly not a "tirade"... That seems to be all you (and a few others here)... Seems many here are angry... and even in the sense that Paul says many would be: "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?'”

If you do it means you don't know what JUSTICE means.

Ah, well, I would say the very same to you, GodsGrace ~ at least regarding God's perfect justice. As I have said, it is obviously not intentional, but what you and others here have done and continue to do is make God's love, mercy, grace, and justice... and thus His attributes and His very character... out to be if not much then at least somewhat less than it/they really are. See above.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Right. I know exactly where you're going, and I'll speak to it (it will not be the first time...) when you get there. But to your statement here, I do believe ~ and God's Word is very clear about this ~ that God's love is and will be made manifest in different way regarding one group, His elect, those He has given to Christ, and the other, those who are not among His elect, those He does not give to Christ.

You're going to have to post some scripture because that's all we have to go by.

God loved THE WHOLE WORLD that He gave His only Son. John 3:16
God causes it to rain on the just and the unjust, He causes the sun to shine on the just and the unjust. Matthew 5:45
God wishes that no one should perish,,,but come to repentance (and salvation). 2 Peter 3:9
Anyone who fears and does what is right, can come to God. Acts 10:34-35

We must say that God will love His children in a different way...
HOWEVER, He loves the entire world enough so that the above verses can be written down by different writers.


1 John 4:8
God IS LOVE.
Reformed theology does not reflect this.

Knew you were going here... :) For sure, yes, but... :) ...John, in John 3:16 ~ and Paul, in Romans 10:17... "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" ~ are both referring directly to Joel 2:32, where Joel clearly says that this 'whoever' is "all those whom the LORD calls"...

"And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls."​

So yes, everyone, whoever, whosoever, but there is a dependency placed on that everyone, whoever, whosoever, and that is... those whom the LORD calls.

So which is it Pinseeker?
Do we call on the Name of the Lord?
Or does He call on us?

This is the big problem with reformed theology-----it CAUSES CONFLICT throughout the bible.

In Romans 10:17 Paul states that EVERYONE who calls on the Name of the Lord will be saved.
Paul meant in a personal way, right now, right away when a person calls on the Name of the Lord for salvation of their soul.

You bring up Joel 2:32 which is speaking about the end of time of Jerusalem in 70AD.
It will be a terrible time of tribulation.
Whoever calls on the Name of the Lord will be delivered .... they will GET HELP, they will escape.
And among those that call on the name of the Lord will also be those that God calls.

Benson Commentary
Joel 2:32. And whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord — Whosoever, having heard the gospel, shall repent and believe in Christ, and call on him, or shall make application to God in prayer through him, shall be delivered — Namely, from temporal and eternal destruction: thus St. Paul interprets this passage, Romans 10:13. For to believe in Christ, give ourselves up to him, and profess ourselves his disciples, is the most effectual, and indeed the only effectual means of escaping the judgments coming upon the unbelieving and disobedient,

among the remnant, whom the Lord shall call — Namely, to believe in Christ, and by him to wait for eternal life. Or, whom the Lord shall appoint to be preserved. This may primarily be understood of those who were converted by the preaching of Christ and his apostles, and who therefore escaped the vengeance which involved the rest of the nation, Acts 2:40; 1 Thessalonians 2:16. These are called the σωζομενοι, such as should be saved, or delivered, Acts 2:47.


Really I don't use commentaries too much, but I believe the above explains your verses much better.

Here's the hitch:
If YOU wanted to use a commentary, you'd have to use a REFORMED COMMENTARY...
Unlike myself, who could use a myriad of commentaries because all the rest of Christian denominations agree with each other;
but reformed theology stands alone.

Not according to your theology, no. :) But maybe your theology will change...

My theology will not change because I don't have to twist scripture to agree with ME....
And your theology will also not change...

But there are some reading along and they need to know the truth of
God's Love, Mercy and Justice.

These qualities are sorely lacking in the God YOU worship.

Hmmm... Well, I'm assuming you're talking about what He says in John 12:32, right?, He said, "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." Yes, but this same Jesus said in John 6:37, "No one can come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." Did Jesus contradict Himself? I mean, I think we would both answer no to that; there are no contradictions in Scripture. So there must be some difference in what is actually being said in those particular instances (and any others were there seems to be any sort of contradiction)... and there is...

The 'all men' or 'all people' of John 12:32, in context, means all kinds of people, people of every tongue tribe and nation, so, both Jews and Gentiles

Nations?
Where is there talk of nations?
Where is there talk of different TYPES of people?

There is none.
In John 12:32 JESUS said. I WILL DRAW ALL MEN TO ME.

But we also read that the Father gives persons to the Son.
Of course....Jesus is the Savior.
God offers salvation to everyone....
Everyone that calls on the name of the Son will be saved. Romans 10:32 - which you yourself posted.

These persons God Father gives to the Son .... He gives them to the Savior of mankind.
John 1:29
Behold the Lamb of God, Who takes away the sin of the world".

Jesus is the good shepherd, He is THE WAY.
John 10:11
"I am the good shepherd, the good shepherd lays down HIs life for His sheep."

God Father sends us to the fold of Jesus' sheep.

the same context as John 10:16 ("And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd"), 11:52("and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad"), and the setting of this very passage, which is clear in 12:20-23 ~ "Now among those who went up to worship at the feast were some Greeks. So these came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, and asked him, 'Sir, we wish to see Jesus.' Philip went and told Andrew; Andrew and Philip went and told Jesus. And Jesus answered them..." So the Greeks were very much present when Jesus said this, which clearly has an effect on how Jesus answers them.

Sure.
I explained this above.
You, OTOH, have to refer to nations from Romans 9 to 11 which is a totally different subject matter.
What do Greeks have to do with OUR salvation?
Jesus broke down the barrier - that's all we need to know.

No, "those whom God foreknew" in Romans 8:29 is very similar to "Adam knew his wife" rather than, different from, "all men will KNOW you are my disciples," exactly as I have said.

This is so dumb, I absolutely refuse to reply to this nonsense any longer.
Are you saying God has intimate relations with the saved?

I hope you know there are different types of KNOW in the bible?
If not, you should find out what they are.
I tire of posting it.

Right, this is what I have said several times, so at least you agree that this knowing can be a very different thing depending on the context.

I agree?
I'm the one that posted the differences and yet you still harp on Adam knowing his wife.

 

[GodsGrace]

So he only predestined the OT saints. That is a bit of an odd interpretation. The action of God foreknowing and predestining is indeed past tense. But those who love God (v. 28) is not limited to past tense. It doesn't say those who loved God. Thus I understand that those who love God are those of the past, present and future.

That's not what I stated.
You'd have to go back and reread.
I just don't have much time.....
It was an explanation of the verse, which the reformed do NOT exegete properly.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, He foreknows only those whom he has chosen ~ His elect. From before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1).

You worship a pretty dumb God then, don't you?

LOL! He has chosen some from before the foundation of the world ~ these are vessels of mercy ~ and the others He has not ~ these are vessels of wrath. This is His purpose of election.


Both, actually.


<chuckles>


Well, I agree, but remember who Paul has previously said who true Jews are:

"For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God."

And so, leading this whole thing about the elect off, Paul says, "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel" (Romans 9:6). He's saying there, GodsGrace, that not all people we suppose to be Jews (based on ethnicity) are really Jews ~ God's Jews ~ at all.


Oh yes, I'm well aware... <smile>


I can, I did, and you are. I would say the same thing back to you, but you can and did...

Oh wait... in what sense so you mean 'cannot'...? See what I did there? <smile>


You mean as if He's not clearly revealed it in all He's said? <smile> Well, okay, yes, let's... <smile>


Well, yes, and this same John, a mere three verses later, says, "We love because God first loved us"...


Absolutely, but remember, as both Moses and Paul say ~ both quoting God Himself ~ "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." This does not mean that God has no mercy at all regarding some, but rather that He doesn't have the same salvific mercy ~ His mercy and compassion regarding His purpose of election, which is exactly what Paul is talking about in Romans 19:14-18 ~ on some as He does others.


And does He have the kind of justice you think He ought to have, GodsGrace? Like, since He is a God of love, He should just dismiss it all and save everybody? That would be justice? Do you (or any person) define 'justice' for God? No, rather, God would have been absolutely, perfectly just to send us all to hell, because that is what we are all fully deserving of. But then there is His grace, which we cannot forget. And again, we cannot say He gives us this salvific grace merely because we made some decision in and of ourselves or anything else we did, else ~ as Paul says in Romans 11:6 ~ "if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace."


Hm, well, that is the character of God. <smile>


Not true at all... (although... what's 'profer'? <smile>


Also not true at all... (although... what's 'profer'?) <smile> No, if not for His mercy, none of us would be saved; all would be sent to hell, because that's what we all deserve...


Ah! Well... (again, what's 'profer'?) <smile> Anyway... <smile> ...I would certainly join with Paul and say, "Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means!" I thank God that He does not exact His perfect justice on at least some but instead granted them, in His grace, His mercy. From all eternity, He made a free-will decision to preserve a remnant for Himself. He was not obligated to do so, else... again... God's grace, which is the unmerited favor of God, would not be grace.

As I have said several times, this is really where it all starts; some just cannot bring themselves to truly understand the doctrine we call "original sin" ~ "sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin..." (Romans 5:12a) ~ and accept the true, far-reaching ramifications of the fall of Adam and Eve ~ "...and so death spread to all men..." (Romans 5:12b) ~ the casting out of Adam and Eve from Eden and the resulting natural state of man. This is what we Christians are brought from, death in sin, and thus brought to, life in Christ (Ephesians 2:4-8). As Paul goes on to say here in Romans 5, "...as one trespass..." Adam's "...led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness..." Jesus's "...leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous" (Romans 5:18-19).

And notice the "leads to justification and life for all men" regarding God's justification... Do not confuse this and think it to be that He gives... or effects... or that all men obtain... this justification and life, but rather that the atonement makes possible the justification of any man. Jesus's atonement was certainly sufficient to save all, but effectual only for some, and this was because God decreed such ~ and which; some are vessels of mercy ~ made for honorable use ~ and others are vessels of wrath ~ made for dishonorable use ~ from all eternity.

So again, thank God He does not give to all what they really deserve, else no one would be saved.


Ohhhh, too late for that. <smile> But certainly not a "tirade"... That seems to be all you (and a few others here)... Seems many here are angry... and even in the sense that Paul says many would be: "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?'”


Ah, well, I would say the very same to you, GodsGrace ~ at least regarding God's perfect justice. As I have said, it is obviously not intentional, but what you and others here have done and continue to do is make God's love, mercy, grace, and justice... and thus His attributes and His very character... out to be if not much then at least somewhat less than it/they really are. See above.

Grace and peace to you.

Lots of smiles and chuckles.

No scripture.

This is very telling.

If you ever want to have a SERIOUS conversation,
come back.

Otherwise, you can keep your opinions to yourself.

 

[PinSeeker]

You're going to have to post some scripture because that's all we have to go by.

LOL! You mean as if I haven't? Goodness gracious. <smile>

We must say that God will love His children in a different way...

Well, we know that God loves all of His creation, but yet says, "Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated." So there is, quite obviously, not a lack of love for unbelievers, but quite a different manifestation of His love to believers from that of unbelievers.

1 John 4:8
God IS LOVE.
Reformed theology does not reflect this.

No, it just doesn't "reflect it" in the way you think it should. Just a few verses farther, GG! Just a few! <smile> "We love because he first loved us" (1 John 4:19).

So which is it Pinseeker? Do we call on the Name of the Lord? Or does He call on us

Yes! <smile> And now, to you:

Which is it GodsGrace? Does our calling on the Name of the Lord depend on God's calling us? Or does God's calling us according to His purpose depend on our calling on the Name of the Lord? Yet again:

"And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the Name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls" (Joel 2:32).​

​

"So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy" (Romans 9:16).​

This is the big problem with reformed theology-----it CAUSES CONFLICT throughout the bible.

A conflict of your own making. <smile>

In Romans 10:17 Paul states that EVERYONE who calls on the Name of the Lord will be saved.

Yes, and as I said before, which it seems you've conveniently forgotten, he's referring directly to Joel 2:32, which... See directly above.

You bring up Joel 2:32...

Yes... Wait, I thought you said I wasn't bringing up any Scripture... <smile>

...which is speaking about the end of time of Jerusalem in 70AD.

No it's not, not specifically...

It will be a terrible time of tribulation....

And we are in that time now.

...among those that call on the name of the Lord will also be those that God calls.

You almost have it! <smile> Eliminate that little word 'also' ~ you threw that in there to support your position, as it's not there in Scripture... <smile> It's really almost inconsequential that you did so, but consequential only because of your intent to change the thrust of that text into something it is obviously not. And actually, you could keep 'also' in there if ~ if ~ you are to understand that God's call on our hearts comes first... and results in the former, our calling on His Name.

Really I don't use commentaries too much, but I believe the above explains your verses much better.

Well of course you would be inclined that way; Charles Benson was very Arminian in his soteriological understanding... <smile>

If YOU wanted to use a commentary, you'd have to use a REFORMED COMMENTARY...

There's a good chance I would, much like you're using an Arminius-influenced one here, Joseph Benson having lived from 1749-1821... about 200 years or so after Jacobus Arminius. He was very much influenced by Arminius. But this disagreement goes on far prior than even Calvin and Arminius, really all the way back to Augustine and Pelagius, as I have said. We would all have trouble finding any real commentaries from before Martin Luther's time.

Unlike myself, who could use a myriad of commentaries because all the rest of Christian denominations agree with each other; but reformed theology stands alone.

That should tell you something... <smile>

My theology will not change...

Well, that would be unfortunate, but even so will not disqualify you from being a Christian, or even a strong Christian.

because I don't have to twist scripture to agree with ME....

See above. What depends on what, God's Grace. Whose call depends on Whose call? If you get that right, you will change your mind. Not to say that you're intentionally twisting Scripture, but, well, it is what it is.

And your theology will also not change...

Well, regarding this one thing, at least, no, So, yeah, you're right. Romans 9:16 is what it is.

But there are some reading along and they need to know the truth of God's Love, Mercy and Justice.

Well, they ~ along with you ~ need to understand the full impact of them, yes.

These qualities are sorely lacking in the God YOU worship.

Absolutely not.

Nations? Where is there talk of nations? Where is there talk of different TYPES of people? There is none.

All I said was, GodsGrace, that God's people, His Israel, will consist of people hailing from every tongue, tribe, and nation... Jew and Gentile.

In John 12:32 JESUS said. I WILL DRAW ALL MEN TO ME.

Right, yes... well, all of God's elect. Jesus also said that "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:44).

But we also read that the Father gives persons to the Son.

Yes. Those He has chosen from before the foundation of the world, according to the counsel of His will (Ephesians 1)...

God offers salvation to everyone....

Absolutely. No one is "ineligible"... the outward call of the Gospel of Christ goes out to all without discrimination. But some do now and will always hear it and regard it as foolishness.

Still, "He calls His own sheep by name and leads them out" (John 10:3).

And in the same breath, He goes on to say... and I'm going to break this up a little, with brief interjections/explanations, for purposes of this exhange:

"My sheep hear My voice..."​

...so, necessarily, others do not...​

"...and I know them..."​

...there it is again; He knows us, His sheep. But does not Jesus know everything and everyone? Well, yes, of course, but this knowing is in a different sense than a wooden knowing who they are; Jesus is clearly saying here that He knows only His sheep, who are given to Him by the Father, in a far different way than just, again, woodenly knowing who they are...​

"...and they follow me"​

There is no other outcome, they follow Him... because He knows them​

"...I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." ​

This is the perseverance of the saints, credited to God, not to man; He ~ as Peter puts it ~ "has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:3-5).​

(John 10:27-30)​

​

Everyone that calls on the name of the Son will be saved. Romans 10:32 - which you yourself posted.

Right, and here again (see above), and Paul is referring directly to Joel 2:32 (see above). Our calling on the LORD depends on His having called us, His elect.

God Father sends us to the fold of Jesus' sheep.

He does, of His own will, depending on nothing else other than His purpose of election.

Sure. I explained this above.

Right, poorly. <smile> In that day, GodsGrace, anyone other than a Jew was referred to as Greek.

You, OTOH, have to refer to nations from Romans 9 to 11

Not what I did at all, really... See directly above... Although, to that point, it has been said ~ by at least one other poster here (not me) ~ that Paul, in Romans 9, is not talking about individual believers but rather the physical nation of Israel, which is very much incorrect, but still the chief Arminian defense of the Arminian soteriological of view.

What do Greeks have to do with OUR salvation?

Are you not a Gentile, GodsGrace? If you are, then you're pretty much asking here... astoundingly... "What do I have to do with my salvation?"

To be continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

From above...

Jesus broke down the barrier...

Between Jew and Gentile, yes, which is to say, then, that God's Israel will consist of all ethnicities, an innumerable multitude of folks from every tongue, tribe, and nation. Which... <smile>

...I absolutely refuse to reply...

That's probably a really good idea. <smile>

Are you saying God has intimate relations with the saved?

No, GodsGrace, I'm not. If you remember, I tried to head off such an ridiculous notion several posts ago. <smile>

I hope you know there are different types of KNOW in the bible?

Right, which is what I've tried to tell you, both here and in previous posts. Thank you for finally acknowledging it.

I agree?

Yes, but you don't even realize it. <smile> Ohhhhhh, that'll getcha goin'... You know, I don't think you ever answered my question, "Do you pray for the salvation of others, and if so why?" Actually, I may have asked that of another poster aside from you, but I'd love to hear your answer to both questions there...

I'm the one that posted the differences...

No, you're the one ~ and not the only one ~ who has denied it, at least up to now.

...and yet you still harp on Adam knowing his wife.

LOL!

You worship a pretty dumb God then, don't you?

No. He knows, but He also knows. <smile>

Lots of smiles and chuckles.

Yes, but only where deserved... <smile> And only a few have been... a bit, um, sarcastic... <smile>

No scripture.

Ohhhhh. My posts are rife with Scripture; they all have been; you cannot make such an assertion with any credibility.

If you ever want to have a SERIOUS conversation, come back.

Ah. <smile>

Otherwise, you can keep your opinions to yourself.

Well I could... but so could you... <smile>

Such anger. Wow.

Grace and peace to you, GG. Especially grace... <smile>

 

[GodsGrace]

LOL! You mean as if I haven't? Goodness gracious. <smile>


Well, we know that God loves all of His creation, but yet says, "Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated." So there is, quite obviously, not a lack of love for unbelievers, but quite a different manifestation of His love to believers from that of unbelievers.

God HATED Esau?
So God, Who IS LOVE, has hate for some persons?
Jesus taught us LOVE even our enemy and to be PERFECT AS THE FATHER IS PERFECT
Matthew 7:47-48
47“If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

You believe God is asking US to do something even HE cannot do?

Common problem within reformed theology.


Jesus said we are to hate even our mother and our father:
Luke 14:26
26“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.


So your belief is that Jesus is teaching that we are to HATE our mother and our father?
Even though one commandment states we are to HONOR (which goes beyond love) our parents?

Yes. Your theology is rather confused to be sure.

Which is it GodsGrace? Does our calling on the Name of the Lord depend on God's calling us? Or does God's calling us according to His purpose depend on our calling on the Name of the Lord? Yet again:

"And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the Name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls" (Joel 2:32).​

​

"So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy" (Romans 9:16).​

A conflict of your own making. <smile>

You can stop with your smiling PS.
I've addressed the above.
Because YOU do not understand it does not mean anything to those that DO understand it.

Again, your theology causes much confusion.
GOD CALLS EVERYONE.
WE MUST RESPOND WITH A YES.
A YES RESPONSE MEANS WE ARE CALLING ON GOD.

See....simple when theology is correct.

You almost have it! <smile> Eliminate that little word 'also' ~ you threw that in there to support your position, as it's not there in Scripture... <smile> It's really almost inconsequential that you did so, but consequential only because of your intent to change the thrust of that text into something it is obviously not. And actually, you could keep 'also' in there if ~ if ~ you are to understand that God's call on our hearts comes first... and results in the former, our calling on His Name.

You'll have to post the scripture I used. (regarding using the word ALSO)
People on this forum really don't know how to discuss theology.
I don't change texts.....
So you'll have to show me how you THINK I changed something.

All I said was, GodsGrace, that God's people, His Israel, will consist of people hailing from every tongue, tribe, and nation... Jew and Gentile.


Right, yes... well, all of God's elect. Jesus also said that "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:44).

We already went through this.
So here you 've created yet another conflict....

Is it John 6:44 or is it John 12:32

Which one is correct Pinseeker?
What is YOUR resolution to the problem you've caused?

I've already explained more than once....
Now YOU try.

Absolutely. No one is "ineligible"... the outward call of the Gospel of Christ goes out to all without discrimination. But some do now and will always hear it and regard it as foolishness.

Still, "He calls His own sheep by name and leads them out" (John 10:3).

And in the same breath, He goes on to say... and I'm going to break this up a little, with brief interjections/explanations, for purposes of this exhange:

"My sheep hear My voice..."​

...so, necessarily, others do not...​

"...and I know them..."​

...there it is again; He knows us, His sheep. But does not Jesus know everything and everyone? Well, yes, of course, but this knowing is in a different sense than a wooden knowing who they are; Jesus is clearly saying here that He knows only His sheep, who are given to Him by the Father, in a far different way than just, again, woodenly knowing who they are...​

"...and they follow me"​

There is no other outcome, they follow Him... because He knows them​

"...I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." ​

This is the perseverance of the saints, credited to God, not to man; He ~ as Peter puts it ~ "has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:3-5).​

(John 10:27-30)​

​

Right, and here again (see above), and Paul is referring directly to Joel 2:32 (see above). Our calling on the LORD depends on His having called us, His elect.

Seems you're obsessed with Joel.
You must find some kind of comfort in that ONE VERSE.

BUT

You state that there are TWO CALLS.....
Could you please explain the two using scripture?
Thanks.

He does, of His own will, depending on nothing else other than His purpose of election.


Right, poorly. <smile> In that day, GodsGrace, anyone other than a Jew was referred to as Greek.


Not what I did at all, really... See directly above... Although, to that point, it has been said ~ by at least one other poster here (not me) ~ that Paul, in Romans 9, is not talking about individual believers but rather the physical nation of Israel, which is very much incorrect, but still the chief Arminian defense of the Arminian soteriological of view.


Are you not a Gentile, GodsGrace? If you are, then you're pretty much asking here... astoundingly... "What do I have to do with my salvation?"

To be continued...

You don't use syntax...very difficult to reply to you.
If you wish replies to the above, please provide syntax.
I cannot go back and forth to see what I wrote.

BTW,,, I'd never ask the last question you posted above....
and an explanation would be appreciated.