Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

[Christian Soldier]

Once again, in my post just above this one, I've shown you how incorrect you are in your belief system.

The best you can do is rant insead of givingt scripture that supports your POV.
This might just mean that there isn't any.

You have shown me nothing but false doctrine, your private views have no place in Gods economy.

Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Isaiah 65:1
“I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me; I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me.
I said, ‘Here am I, here am I,’

John 15:16
You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

John 17:6
“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

Romans 9:10-13
And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.”
Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

I can list another 115 verses from both the old and new testament, to expose your false religion which makes God a liar. You reject Gods Word and cling to the words of wicked men like Arminius.

You have never refuted what God said about choosing His elect onto salvation before the world was made. God said He hates babies before they're even born, Jacob and Esau were not born when God said He hated Esau. So to keep your false Aminian doctrine afloat, you must reject God as a liar. Can you see the problem now????

 

[Christian Soldier]

Born again Christians.


Do you struggle with loving people?

Is committing adultery with your neighbor's wife, loving or hating your neighbor?




JLB

I agree, only Born again Christians keep the commandments, because the righteousness of Christ is imputed onto them. So God doesn't hold their sin against them as it has all been fully paid for. Yes every past, present and future sin is already paid for.

Yes I do struggle with loving wicked people, I still retain some of the old nature, so yes I do struggle with many things.

Committing adultery is neither loving or hating your neighbor, both of you have sinned against your own body by doing so. But God always grants repentance to the Christian and his sins are forgiven, while the unbeliever will more fire in hell.

As an elect Saint of God, the only unpardonable sin would be blasphemy against the Holy Sprit, which no elect Saint would ever do anyway. So OSAS is a rock solid Bible doctrine, which cannot be denied, without making God a liar.

 

[JBO]

Yes, but not what you say I did... :) I mean, not to compare myself to Jesus at all, but He tells quite a few parables, many of which are what we call Kingdom parables, saying, "The Kingdom of God is like..."... and then following that with some earthly metaphor. Right? Well, we can do that, too...

Grace and peace to you.

Yes, we can do that too. But that is not what you are doing. You are changing the very definition of the word. There is no metaphor in your redefinition of words.

 

[JBO]

That would be true of mere cognitive knowing beforehand, buuuuut.... :)

Ah, so ~ and this is just a human analogy ~ Adam's knowing of Eve (which was not a mere cognitive "knowing," as in, "Oh, hey, I know who you are...!" :)) was not causative of... did not result in... Eve's conception of and giving birth to Seth...? Weeeeeellllllll.... :)

So if you understand God's foreknowledge correctly, what you say here is not true at all. And back to a Godly context... the Father knows Christ and Christ knows the Father, so He is self-causing... "self-existent"... from everlasting to everlasting... and (from John 10:27), Jesus says, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." Our following and serving Him is the direct result of His knowing us... Flipping back a few pages, in Matthew 7:23, in the picture Jesus gives us of the final Judgment, to those who are not saved He will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness." We get an even fuller picture of this judgment in Matthew 25, when He says to them (will say, of course), "I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome Me, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me..." And this is because He never knew them, and therefore the lack of causation to ~ Ezekiel 36:27 ~ "walk in (His) statutes and be careful to obey (His) rules."I

But even those whom Jesus claims to never knew were foreknown by God; thus directly countering your contention of changing the meaning of the word foreknow.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, we can do that too. But that is not what you are doing. You are changing the very definition of the word. There is no metaphor in your redefinition of words.

In reformed theology, it becomes absolutely necessary to change the meaning of words.
Practically none of the NT can be taken literally or reformed theology would make no sense.

 

[JBO]

I agree. Paul says that "those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son...", right? So yes, they are different things, but the one (God's predestination to be conformed to the image of Christ) always ~ always, inevitably ~ follows the other (God's foreknowing).

God foreknew that Judas would betray Jesus Christ. So according to you Judas was predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. I really don't think that was what Paul was saying at all.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are doing what Calvinists always do. They have to redefine the meaning of words, otherwise, their theology, particularly their soteriology, makes no sense; that is the case with the whole concept of TULIP. Foreknowledge is not causative. Foreknowing and predestining are two entirely different functions. Foreknowing is not fore-loving or definitely not fore-choosing.

But could we not say he predestined based on foreknowledge? (Not as the calvinist says)

 

[GodsGrace]

If they're "good Calvinists," yes. :)


They (I) redefine absolutely nothing. They (I) may not define things the way you define those things, but that's neither here nor there, really; they are what they are. See above.

IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED....
Do you believe that God created everything IN THE BEGINNING?

FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD
Do you believe that God loved ALL HIS CREATION, IOW, the world,
or only some portions of it.

If you believe God loved only small portions of HIS WORLD....
then you do not believe the NT.

The NT states that GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD.....

THAT WHOSOEVER......
WHOEVER.......

Whoever means Whoever.

It doesn't mean SOME PERSONS
It doesn't mean SOME NATINALITIES

It simply means WHOEVER.

But that won't fit with your theology, will it?
So it becomes necessary to CHANGE THE MEANING of words.

Jesus said He would draw ALL MEN to Himself.
Did Jesus mean what He said?
He said ALL MEN
Not some men,
not some nationalities,
ALL MEN.

Do you believe the NT writers wrote what they meant
and meant what they wrote?

No. Of course not.
It doesn't fit with your theology.

Better to change God's Word than to change what you THINK you understand.

That really can't be said; the only thing that can really be said is that it doesn't make the kind of sense... others... think it should (or should not).


That would be true of mere cognitive knowing beforehand, buuuuut.... :)

Ah, so ~ and this is just a human analogy ~ Adam's knowing of Eve (which was not a mere cognitive "knowing," as in, "Oh, hey, I know who you are...!" :)) was not causative of... did not result in... Eve's conception of and giving birth to Seth...? Weeeeeellllllll.... :)

This is so old even Calvinists having stopped making such a dumb statement.
You don't know the difference between FORKNOWLEGE and to know as in some scripture?
Study up some more.

Adam KNEW his wife.
That all men will KNOW you are my disciples.

Does know mean the same in both instances?
NO.

Adam knew: ya-da strong's 3045
Will know: gnosanta strong's 1097

Same holds true for the English word KNOW:
It could mean either intimately or knowledge-wise

So if you understand God's foreknowledge correctly, what you say here is not true at all. And back to a Godly context... the Father knows Christ and Christ knows the Father, so He is self-causing... "self-existent"... from everlasting to everlasting... and (from John 10:27), Jesus says, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." Our following and serving Him is the direct result of His knowing us... Flipping back a few pages, in Matthew 7:23, in the picture Jesus gives us of the final Judgment, to those who are not saved He will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness." We get an even fuller picture of this judgment in Matthew 25, when He says to them (will say, of course), "I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome Me, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me..." And this is because He never knew them, and therefore the lack of causation to ~ Ezekiel 36:27 ~ "walk in (His) statutes and be careful to obey (His) rules."


I agree. Paul says that "those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son...", right? So yes, they are different things, but the one (God's predestination to be conformed to the image of Christ) always ~ always, inevitably ~ follows the other (God's foreknowing).

God foreknows who will be saved.
God predestines them to be in the image of Jesus.

We might actually agree on this although you would be the first to admit it.

 

[GodsGrace]

But could we not say he predestined based on foreknowledge? (Not as the calvinist says)

Then WHAT or HOW did God predestine??

 

[JBO]

But could we not say he predestined based on foreknowledge? (Not as the calvinist says)

Yes of course. I believe that the crucifixion of Jesus was based, at least in part, upon God's foreknowledge of what the scribes, pharisees, Judas, and Pontius Pilate would do. So while the crucifixion was predestined, it was not necessary that what the scribes, pharisees, Judas and Pontius Pilate would do was not necessarily predestined.

The conflict or the error that Reformed Theology makes is thinking that God predestinates the salvation or the condemnation of anyone ever. Salvation depends entirely upon believing in God, i.e., faith, which by the way cannot be a gift from God as posited by Reformed Theology and others as well. And condemnation depends upon disbelieving in God.

 

[JBO]

God foreknows who will be saved.
God predestines them to be in the image of Jesus.

We might actually agree on this although you would be the first to admit it.

The important thing to understand relative to the foreknowledge in Romans 6:29 is that God foreknew those who love God (Rom 8:28). Verses 29 and 39 then proceed to explain what are the "all things" in verse 28 that work together for good for those who love God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

In reformed theology, it becomes absolutely necessary to change the meaning of words.
Practically none of the NT can be taken literally or reformed theology would make no sense.

Sadly, This happens with many, not just the reformed. It would be another massive test we could all do to help us know or understand if we have the right thinking or right interpretation!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Then WHAT or HOW did God predestine??

God predestines *** to be conformed to his image.

yes, the question is who?

The calvinist would say God just randomly chose people.. or something to that affect.

As for me, I would point to Many scriptures which tell us most notably john 6, to find out what was the will of God.. WHo are those he chose to be conformed to the image of his son?

John 6: 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

The will of God is all who are given to CHrist will never be lost. and he will raise them on the last day

but who are they? Just a random group of people? as the calvinist says? No

40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Its those who see and believe, And guess what. In Gods foreknowledge he knew who those people would be, and predestined them to be conformed to the image of his son.

Wee if we just set aside our preconceived beliefs, and actually read the word, it becomes clear..

 

[PinSeeker]

But even those whom Jesus claims to never knew were foreknown by God; thus directly countering your contention of changing the meaning of the word foreknow.

You mean the Jesus Who Himself is God? Hmmm.... But, yes, I'm sure He knew who they all were... :)

No, they were not known, in the very same context as Paul in Romans 8:29. The fact is you're.... well, not "changing," really, but mischaracterizing the context of both Jesus in Matthew 25 and Paul in Romans 8. Whether what you're doing is purposeful or inadvertent is questionable... both, I guess, if placed in the proper context. See what I did there...?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sadly, This happens with many, not just the reformed. It would be another massive test we could all do to help us know or understand if we have the right thinking or right interpretation!

Interesting.
How would this massive test work?
Must go.
Later.

 

[GodsGrace]

You mean the Jesus Who Himself is God? Hmmm.... But, yes, I'm sure He knew who they all were... :)

No, they were not known, in the very same context as Paul in Romans 8:29. The fact is you're.... well, not "changing," really, but mischaracterizing the context of both Jesus in Matthew 25 and Paul in Romans 8. Whether what you're doing is purposeful or inadvertent is questionable... both, I guess, if placed in the proper context. See what I did there...?

Grace and peace to you.

Let's get this one thing straight Pinseeker....
GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING.
GOD FOREKNOWS EVERYTHING.

AND
The reformed do not only mischaracterize context, as you are accusing @JBO of doing...
they mischaracterize the very NATURE OF GOD.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes of course. I believe that the crucifixion of Jesus was based, at least in part, upon God's foreknowledge of what the scribes, pharisees, Judas, and Pontius Pilate would do. So while the crucifixion was predestined, it was not necessary that what the scribes, pharisees, Judas and Pontius Pilate would do was not necessarily predestined.

The conflict or the error that Reformed Theology makes is thinking that God predestinates the salvation or the condemnation of anyone ever. Salvation depends entirely upon believing in God, i.e., faith, which by the way cannot be a gift from God as posited by Reformed Theology and others as well. And condemnation depends upon disbelieving in God.

true, But I am not just going off what God said, Whom he foreknew he predestined.

 

[PinSeeker]

The calvinist would say God just randomly chose people.. or something to that affect.

God never... randomly... does anything; everything He does is for His own glory. Which fits ~ as if that's surprising... ~ with what Paul says in Romans 9:21-23 regarding the elect...

The will of God is all who are given to CHrist will never be lost. and he will raise them on the last day

Yes. Agreed.

but who are they? Just a random group of people? as the calvinist says? No

Right, the Calvinist says, very emphatically, "No. Not random at all." :) That's a ridiculous accusation, as Paul clearly says, "Those (God) foreknew..." (Romans 8:29), and that He made some for honorable use and others for dishonorable use... He desired to show his wrath and to make known his power and has endured with those vessels of wrath in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, those whom He prepared beforehand for glory. So... "random"...? Most certainly not. Quite the very opposite.

Its those who see and believe...

That's absolutely true, but for those who do, they're being of God's elect, of His Israel and thus true Jews of God, DOES NOT DEPEND on their seeing and believing... or as Paul puts it in Romans 9:16, it DOES NOT DEPEND on their willing and/or running.

, And guess what. In Gods foreknowledge he knew who those people would be...

Yes, He knew who they would be, BECAUSE they were among His elect. And He also knew, from before the foundation of the world, who those who would not see and believe were, BECAUSE they were not among His elect. But, as I have said, that is a very different connotation of 'foreknowledge' than that clearly communicated by Paul in Romans 8:29.

Wee if we just set aside our preconceived beliefs, and actually read the word, it becomes clear..

We agree on that... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Interesting.
How would this massive test work?
Must go.
Later.

Lets just take this example. foreknowledge, to know before hand, If we take any other meaning, then we most likely do not understand it.

We can even use it in our daily lives, or when plainly talking. Example. to persevere means to (taken from a dictionary)
continue in a course of action even in the face of difficulty or with little or no prospect of success.
"his family persevered with his treatment"

Ie, its alot of hard work to persevere through this time of struggle or tribulation

or in another dictionary - to persist in a state, enterprise, or undertaking in spite of counterinfluences, opposition, or discouragement.

Again, massively hard work, Yet we have in reformed theology (Calvinism) as part of their tulip, that the P stands for persevere until the end. So you see, For a theology group, who is so afraid of thinking even faith is a work of man, and can not be part of the born again process. to say we will persevere (struggle. work mightily, in spite of everything against us) until the end, Is taking a word totally out of context. or at the least, is totally contradicting their own theology

 

[PinSeeker]

Let's get this one thing straight Pinseeker....

Ah. Yes. :) I mean, this thing is... these things are, actually... very straight already, God's Grace. But okay...

GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING.

Absolutely.

GOD FOREKNOWS EVERYTHING.

In a certain sense, yes. But in Paul's context regarding God's foreknowledge of those who are in Christ in Romans 8 ~ which is further defined as His elect in Romans 9 through 11 ~ it is a select group who are foreknown.

The reformed do not only mischaracterize context, as you are accusing @JBO of doing...
they mischaracterize the very NATURE OF GOD.

It is terribly ironic that we both "accuse" each other of this very same thing, yes?

Grace and peace to you, GodsGrace.