Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes it does...


Right, so quit saying that I or any Calvinist suggests He does...

But you do. then deny it

LOL! Well I can't do anything to force your will, for sure... :) See what I did there? :)

Yeah you mocked me, and you think that was christlike?

The first thing you say here is true, but does not necessitate the second (the in other words part). Or do you mean you had no choice regarding being born again of the Spirit? If that's the case, then yes... Hey, you have a mother and father, I'm sure... :) They may be deceased, and if so I'm deeply sorry, but did you somehow get the message to them that you wanted to be born, like, before you were actually born or conceived? I hope you would acknowledge "no" to that... :) And if not, why is it different regarding being born of the Spirit? It's not; in that respect it's absolutely no different...

why are you trying to make the spiritual birth like the new birth?

I was not up and conscious before I was born physically
I was not making life and death decisions every day before I was born physically
I was not sinning every day before I was born physically
I was not like the gentiles by practice obeying God by being morally good in many areas before I was born physically

to try to make spiritual birth even come close to being done the way you were physically born is just out there.

Of course I could not tell my mom how I wanted to be born, I DID NOT EXIST. But I certainly could call out and beg for Gods mercy like the tax collector did..

You're disagreeing with me does not bother me. But neither should my saying what I'm saying bother you; it only does so because you make inferences that make what I said not what I said at all. That's the problem. And maaaaaaaybe something else...

Actually I dispise what you believe and hate what it does to the character of God and how the world sees him..

Right; nobody is suggesting that. You say they are (I am), but that's not the case.

I see differently

Agree. And neither John Calvin nor any Calvinist buys into fatalism.

I see differently

Well, again, the Scripture is (quoting), "I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules..." (Ezekiel 36:27). So in a sense, I would agree, but saving faith is the gift of God, an assurance from God and conviction by the Holy Spirit, Who convicts...

Yes, The HS convicts. the world of sin righteousness and judgment,

Thats everyone, not just the elect.

Well, first, that's not what I said you had backwards; second, the issue is sin, not the penalty of it; and third, yeah, don't, um, throw out your Bible. :)

I thought you knew the gospel? I am sorry, but the wage of sin is death.. Jesus removed that issue on the cross.

But he will not save everyone. so we still have that pesky wage to take care of

Yes. Sure. God does this, as I'm sure we agree, here, at least.

I think you will see we agree on alot..

Actually no, it means that we are made righteous in the sight of God despite our unrighteousness, and this is because we are imputed the righteousness of Christ Jesus.

No actually it does not. the greek word is actually the same word used and translated as righteous. It was a legal term in the Greek and it was used to show a person was found not guilty (righteous) or that the person had paid his debt in full, It is the reason we have eternal life abd are born again, because we are legally found innocent (justified) based on the redemption in Christ (he paid the debt for us)

Some spelling errors here, so not sure what you're saying with "which in fact must procDee"... I think you're saying precede there, is that right? At any rate, yes, I would agree that this is all one thing, that it is all simultaneous ("simutanious"? :)). Sorry; I'm kind of poking some fun at ya... :) Anyhoo, yes, regeneration (being born again of the Spirit; the new birth is a result of having been imputed the righteousness of Christ, which is God's justifying act, and if there is any time lapse between that and being born again of the Spirit, I would call it infinitesimal, so small as to not even really be a thing.

But you still must have faith first. before ANY of them take place..

No, you will not be justified until God makes that declaration, which He does of His grace and because of Jesus's atonement, and absolutely nothing else. Your heart is then changed, and you're calling out to Jesus follows that, if not immediately then shortly thereafter.

I am Saved by grace through FAITH (eph 2)
Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by (through) faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Galatians 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Galatians 3:24
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

You can not remove faith from the equation.

1. God offers the gift of salvation
2. We are forced to make a decision before we die
A. Continue in unbelief, and to hide the truth in our hearts
B. take the calling of God and the conviction of the spirit. learn from him, and repent, coming to faith and making the decision to trust in God and his promise based on the cross.
3. Call out on the name of Jesus to be saved.

at that moment, we are redeemed by the blood, Justified, Born again, Recieve every spiritual blessing under heaven, sealed by the spirit.

He who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already

Its not like the legalists says and we are good enough., do not commit certain sins or do all these religious works.

Its not like the fatalist says that God chose us, and made us born again so we would by this act believe (which we never would unless God did this) and then after we ar born again, we trust God and are justified (although this is simultaneous in the fatalist eye,)

Thats why the Calvinist calls me Arminian, and the Arminian calls me Calvinist. because the truth is in the middle.

Right (again)...


Well no, but He gave them up to their own selfish passions, as Paul says in Romans 1. Yes, generally speaking, the call of the Gospel has gone out to everyone, not kept from anyone. "Many are invited, but few are chosen"...

You can't say that if a person has no capacity or ability to believe then say it is not kept from them, it most certainly is

Its like sending a person into a war with no capacity to defend himself and he gets killed. then say he had every opportunity. it does not work that way,

I'm neither the one who built it nor the one holding it up. :)


Regarding salvation, with God, yes. Jesus is absolutely clear on that...

Then God can convince a person the truth, without making him born again first.

so again, who is limiting God?

Continued below...

I have an appointment, i will get to it later..

 

[JBO]

No, salvation depends on being one of God's elect, which depends on God and His mercy.

Being one of God's elect depends upon God's foreknowledge of the believer who is saved which is by grace through faith.

You mean the guys to whom He directly stated, "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide"...? Those apostles?

You are not an apostle. Besides He chose Judas.

God elects, and there is only one election; it is of certain people unto His salvation. The service to God is a result of the conferring of this salvation.

Israel was God's chosen. To be chosen is to be an elect. All Israel were chosen. Not all Israel were saved. Clearly there is chosen for service and chosen for salvation.

There is no such thing at all. But it is good that you acknowledge God's election to salvation.

You are saying that everyone God ever chose to do something He wanted was saved. Romans 9 says He chose Pharoah.

Ahhhh, "those He foreknew..." in Romans 8:30... Another poster brought that up just a few pages ago, so I'll cut and paste what I said to him/her here:

How then should we understand it? Well, I would submit to you, EG, that in various places in the Bible, knowing something or someone is directly said ~ both in the Old Testament Hebrew and the New Testament Greek ~ in the context of loving and serving someone... doing something for them and... causing something to happen. Consider Genesis 4, where we read that "Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain" (Genesis 4:1). We can assume the same is true subsequently of Abel because of the "And again" at the first of Genesis 4:2. Likewise, in Genesis 4:17, Cain knew his wife, and then in Genesis 4:25, Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and called his name Seth." So this knowing is in a very different sense, obviously, because, just woodenly speaking, of course Adam and Cain knew who their wives were, but knowing in that sense would not cause them to conceive and bear children, right?

The tired old fallacy of trying to tie God's foreknowledge to the euphemistic rendering of the word "know" for sexual intercourse is actually all rather ludicrous. It is the height of redefining a word to avoid what it actually means.

But we should understand this 'foreknew' in Romans 8:30 in a very similar sense: loved beforehand... and even chose for Himself... beforehand.

We are to understand the word "foreknow" to mean to know beforehand -- PERIOD.

And that can ~ and should ~ take us back to what John says, as I cited above, that "We love because He (God) first loved us" (1 John 4:19). Now, yes, God loves all His creation, but He does not extend His mercy to all, but only extends that mercy to those He chooses/elects. That might seem... unloving... but the fact is that He is not obligated to extend that mercy to anyone, as none are deserving of it, and in fact deserving of just the opposite. And Paul tells us why he extended this mercy to some and not all, and that he was wholly within his right to do so. The potter (God, the Creator) has every right over the clay (us, the created), to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use, and so to extend mercy to one but not the other.

The discussion of God's right over the clay is about using it in this life. It has nothing to do with whether He saves or not. The "honorable use" and the "dishonorable use" in Romans 9:21 is obviously not about salvation and condemnation. Neither salvation nor condemnation is ever referred to as "use". Clearly that has to do with God's using the clay as it is in this life not the next.

Well, we are not to baptize a second time those who may not think their baptism ~ and I'm speaking of the water baptism that we administer ~ was "good," or "stuck." If we received the outward sign of the covenant, that's good enough; a second is not needed. But again, John the Baptist says, "I baptize you with water for repentance, but He Who is coming after me is mightier than I, Whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire" (Matthew 3:11). So there are two types of baptism spoken of there, the first being an outward sign, what we call a sacrament (like Communion in this respect), given to us by God through which we are all encouraged, and the second being the effectual one, the one that actually confers salvation upon a person. The first is a work of man, and it is a work of God.

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call--
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

And there is not a single verse in the whole of the NT that ever even suggests that baptism in water is just an "outward sign". Even the baptism of John was for the remission of sin of the repentant believer.

Peter places no age minimum (or maximum) or any other prerequisite on his appeal. He says to the men of Israel, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to Himself." Presumably, many of these men who heard what Peter was saying had small children, even babies.

Even the baptism of John was dependent upon repentance. The one being baptized must be old enough to recognize a failure and repent having done it. If you have children, perhaps yours were much more intelligent and mature as babies then any that I have ever known or even heard about.

In the case of babies or children too young to express belief in Christ, the baptism is still about faith, that of their parents, who are trusting that God will, because the baby is the child of believing parents, call them to Himself at some point in the future... or may have already done so, as God can do anything, even extend His mercy and thereby change the heart from stone to flesh, even for a child of any age.

Baptism of one because of the faith of another? That makes no sense. If that were possible, I would be baptized for every person I know who I think might be lost. That smacks of the old heresy of RCC priests offering indulgences.

I think you are terribly misguided in the whole concept of God's election. However, it is more than just election that gets twisted. It is the whole of soteriology which becomes contaminated and infected to the core. The very concept of God's grace is corrupted. God, Himself, is maligned. I know that is not your intention, but that is, in fact, the result.

 

[JBO]

Error. there are many baptisms.

I get it. Just another of Paul's many mistakes.

 

[JLB]

So your saved.

Will God, who started a good work complete it until the day of Christ? As paul was confident?

Did God seal you with the HS of promise UNTIL they day of redemption (ressurection day( like paul said not once but three times

Do you have every spiritual blessing under heaven, as paul said you do

were you made alive at that time, when before you were dead because of sin?

Or do you think you can somehow must maintain your salvation the flesh and begining in the spirit when you did what you said above?

In effect, are you truly said, or are you still trying to be saved?

Stating your opinion and using unbiblical phrases such as "maintain your salvation" is just evidence you don't use scripture to receive instruction in righteousness.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17


Please post scripture to make your point -


Here is how the scriptures instruct us to remain in Him -

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Question -


Do you confess your sins to God in order to be forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness?


If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9




JLB

 

[JLB]

.....and repenting and being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Confessing Jesus as LORD is how we repent.


Repent means turn to God, in submission to Him as LORD.

If we are called to turn to God, then by default we are called to turn away from Satan as our lord.

The way we obey the Gospel command to repent is by confessing Jesus as LORD.

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10



JLB

 

[JLB]

I get it. Just another of Paul's many mistakes.

There are three distinct and different baptisms with three different baptizers.

Shall we discuss this?

 

[JLB]

No, I don't believe that anyone can keep any commandments

• His commandments are not burdensome.

So you struggle with loving God and loving people?

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3

 

[JLB]

True, and that obedience to the faith is only a characteristic of the elect chosen before time began to belong to Christ.
As God has ordained this to be, it is so. and it is only for those to whom He has given NEW Birth.

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10


God desires for the elect to also obtain salvation.

 

[PinSeeker]

But you do...

In your opinion only.

Yeah you mocked me...

Nope.

why are you trying to make the spiritual birth like the new birth?

Do you understand these not to be the same thing? Born again of the Spirit? Because they are...

I was not up and conscious before I was born physically... I was not making life and death decisions every day before I was born physically...

Right, and in like manner, spiritually, the same is true: you were not spiritually alive previous to your being born spiritually, born again of the Spirit. You were (and I was) spiritually dead; we were dead in our sin. Yes, exactly.

I was not sinning every day before I was born physically... I was not like the gentiles by practice obeying God by being morally good in many areas before I was born physically

Right, but you were sinning every day before ~ and after, actually ~ you were born spiritually. Before you were born again spiritually, you were, like the rest of mankind, a child of wrath.

to try to make spiritual birth even come close to being done the way you were physically born is just out there.

LOL! Woodenly speaking, they are very different things, for sure, but... see above. Wow.

Of course I could not tell my mom how I wanted to be born, I DID NOT EXIST.

Absolutely correct, and similarly... :) See above. You were dead in your sin. As was I.

But I certainly could call out and beg for Gods mercy like the tax collector did..

After the Spirit had worked in your heart. Remember again what Paul tells the Philippians, to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

We do the willing and working, Eternally Grateful, and it is because God works in us.

Actually I dispise what you believe

I get that loud and clear. I can say that should not be so, but surely you are your own person.

and hate what it does to the character of God and how the world sees him.

Those who would agree with you on this misunderstand Calvinism in the same ways you do.

I see differently

I see differently

Sure you do. Of course.

Continued below...

 

[PinSeeker]

Continued from above...

Yes, The HS convicts.

Good, And, being convicted assured by God and convicted by the Spirit ~ given this faith ~ what do we then do? :) There are several correct answers to that question... :)

Thats everyone, not just the elect.

Ah, so you're saying God gives everyone this saving faith, even as much as a mustard seed. If so, then why is not everyone saved, Eternally Grateful? This saving faith is only given to those who are born again of the Spirit, and the only ones born again of the Spirit are God's elect, those He has chosen from before the foundation of the world.

I thought you knew the gospel?

LOL!

I am sorry, but the wage of sin is death...

Sure it is. But the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord, right?

.. Jesus removed that issue on the cross.

Ah, well, removed it in the sense that He paid the those wages of sin on behalf of those God gave Him... which includes you and me, and all of God's elect, Jews of God, the Israel of God... :)

But he will not save everyone. so we still have that pesky wage to take care of...

Um, well who's this "we" you speak of, EG? :)

I think you will see we agree on alot..

No doubt we do...

No actually it does not. the greek word is actually the same word used and translated as righteous. It was a legal term in the Greek and it was used to show a person was found not guilty (righteous) or that the person had paid his debt in full, It is the reason we have eternal life abd are born again, because we are legally found innocent (justified) based on the redemption in Christ (he paid the debt for us)

Made righteous in Christ... imputed His righteousness... and thus justified. Sure. But not "not guilty," as Jesus was, but absolved of guilt, despite our guilt.

But you still must have faith first.

Well, again, it's all one thing, faith included ~ which is the assurance from God of things hoped for and the conviction by the Spirit of things not seen ~ and the gift of God.

I am Saved by grace through FAITH (eph 2)

The work of God.

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by (through) faith apart from the deeds of the law.

The work of God.

Romans 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith...

The work of God.

...we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

The result of God ~ what we have because of and in the ongoing work of God.

Galatians 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ...

All of which is the work of God...

Galatians 3:24
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

And our faith ~ and justification, of course ~ is the work of God.

You can not remove faith from the equation.

I hope no one is doing that; surely I am not. But making faith a work of man quite contrary to God's Word... and removing faith from the equation of Ephesians 2:4-11, as I have said.

1. God offers the gift of salvation

To all; this is the general call to salvation, sure...

2. We are forced to make a decision before we die
A. Continue in unbelief, and to hide the truth in our hearts
B. take the calling of God and the conviction of the spirit. learn from him, and repent, coming to faith

Ah, well, almost agree... :) In a way we are forced, I guess, but in another way we are not... We have to decide something about a lot of things, but some choose not to make a decision, saying, "Okay, I'm willing to believe in God and Jesus and all that stuff, but I need to see evidence, so I'm withholding any decision...", or something like that, but really, the decision not to make a decision is... very much a decision. :) And it so doing, that take option A... And the inward call of God on our hearts cannot be avoided, as it is the purpose of God, which cannot be thwarted. The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

...and making the decision to trust in God and his promise based on the cross.

Absolutely... always the result of the above. Yes, God's purposes cannot be thwarted, but if the above happens, our will will always be... even though we may fail from time to time... to do the will of our Father, God Himself. Instead of that of our former father the devil. So what you say here is the result of the work of God.

3. Call out on the name of Jesus to be saved.

Same as above. Again, Joel tells us the order, God calls, and those whom He calls then call upon the name of the LORD. So again, what you say here is the result of the work of God.

Thats why the Calvinist calls me Arminian, and the Arminian calls me Calvinist. because the truth is in the middle.

LOL! No, everything you've said is very much Arminian, straight down the line, all the way through. The middle ground is actually Calvinism, between Arminianism and Hyper-Calvinism... between what really amounts to the sovereignty of man of Arminianism and the... well, yes, fatalism, at least in a manner of speaking, of Hyper-Calvinism (which way over-emphasizes the sovereignty of God at the expense of man's willing and doing, which is exactly what you're accusing Calvinists of).

You can't say that if a person has no capacity or ability to believe...

I don't, nor does Calvin or any Calvinist...

... then say it is not kept from them, it most certainly is

The Spirit is kept from them, but, as Paul says:

"...what can be known about God is plain to (all), because God has shown it to them. For His invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made..." (Romans 1:19-20).​

So this is not "kept from them" in any way. Rather:

​

"God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator... For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions... since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done" (Romans 1:24-28).​

"God... has endured with much patience vessels of wrath" (Romans 9:22)

So what you could say, Eternally Grateful ~ and you'd be correct in saying this ~ is not that anything was kept from them (except the Holy Spirit, Who, in the same manner as "the wind..." that "...blows where it wishes," goes where He wishes, in particular regarding who He gives birth (rebirth) to, who is born again of the Spirit [John 3]), but that God let them do exactly what they wanted to do, even chose to do. And again, this is the natural inclination of all mankind, who, by nature, are children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3). As a very wise Christian ~ John Bradford (1510–1555) ~ once said... and it has been repeated often ever since... "But for the grace of God, there go I."

so again, who is limiting God?

Well, you, inadvertently at least. I know you don't mean to do this, but by over-crediting (glorifying, actually) man, you are, in effect, under-crediting (lessening the glory of) God.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well, again, it depends on what you really mean by "cannot." :) Do you mean (either/or):

1. that he or she is woodenly unable, incapable, and thus cannot? In this case, my claim is absolutely not what you say here...

2. that he or she will not, because of his or her absolute predisposition and resulting decision to not seek God, and in that case cannot ~ cannot bring himself or herself to do it because of who he or she is at heart? In this case, yes, that would be my "claim," because that's what Scripture tells us in no uncertain terms.

To be honest it would not matter, And you are incorrect. scripture does not say you will be born again first, then be able to understand the gospel to repent and come to faith in God.

By the way, can you explain how regeneration and justification can be simultanious with your thinking? I mean so a person would never come to God. or understand, God makes them born again, and in that split second, without even thinking of it, they fall on their knees and call out to jesus, who justifies them?

Sorry, this is another thing that keeps me from coming to your view. You do not even give a person a time to comprehend what God just shared with him and opened his eyes to. in order to change his thinking and agree with God and come to him to be saved.

No, if you chose... See what I did there? :) ...the second option directly above, which is the right one. :)

Yet again, You just limited God. he is unable to bring a person to faith unless he first raises them from the dead (spiritually thinking) in order that they may believe and trust him in faith to be saved.

I do not for the life of me understand why you can not see this

Ah, "can not" again. See above...

See what?

See, the way I see it, The HS works on a person, sometimes for years. and brings this person to the point they are bankrupt in spirit. and in this state of bankrupt feeling that they know they can not offer God anythign for their sins, they repent and call out to God like the tax collector.

I reject both point 1 and point 2. And consider that limiting Gods power and influence, and making him to not be the God of love he claims to be

There is no "convincing" God does it ~ justifies, causes a person to be born again of the Spirit ~ or not. What God purposes to do, He does; God's "purposes cannot be thwarted" (Job 42:2).

lol. Ok, keep believing this, Again, this is limiting Gods ability to change a persons heart and mind, He tells them to repent. or else. yet he will not even try to convince them

God told us his purpose. It was the fathers will that ALL WHO SEE AND BELIEVE.....

You keep removing faith out of the equation of the gospel.. thats where the disconnect is that we can not resolve.. Until you put fauith back in and confess that anyone alive can have faith, and will be held accountable if they refuse to have faith. Then we will not ever agree

Ah yes, but read on past John 3:16... "God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." And before you say "gotcha..." Remember again what this same John records Jesus as saying to the Jews at the Feast of Dedication in John 10, that "you do not believe because you are not among My sheep... My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." The case is clearly not that they are not among His sheep because they do not believe, but quite the reverse.

Nice try, He explained that in John 6. It is the will of the father that whoever sees and believes.. But you do not believe, and one of you is the devil (judas)

You need to take the word as a hole. and not just pluck a few verses out and say Gotcha!!

So, before we are given this assurance by God, and convicted by the Spirit?

I never said faith comes before this, That is you who is saying this, don;t twist my words and turn what you are sayign back on me

See now this is what is backwards, EG. No, we look in faith to Jesus ~ who is the author and perfector of our faith (Hebrews 12:2) ~ as a result of having been born again of the Spirit.

See. You have it backwards again, Yiu have God making me, who is dead in tresspasses and sin, alive (while still under the penalty of sin) so that I can then be assured and trust in God to call out to him to be justified from the penalty of sin, which was the cause of my death to begin with.

whew, alot there. see how awful it is that you want me to believe this?

sorry I can;t, and never will God is not the author of confusion.

Of faith itself, we are given this faith when we are born again of the Spirit... "by grace (we) have been saved through faith. And this is not (our) own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

By grace are we saved THROUGH FAITH)

I am born again, BECAUSE I have been saved, Not before..

Come on, Eternally Grateful. You said you missed the second question, so I replied, "The first (question) was, "Do you pray for the salvation of others?" You answered in the affirmative to this..." ~ you had in fact said, "Why would I not? My Kids. Grandkids, Friends neighbors and anyone else," so is that not answering in the affirmative? Certainly it is... Wow.

~ to which I agreed and said "fantastic"... But after asking that, I also, asked, "If so... why?" And then having to clarify, I asked, "Why do you pray for the salvation of others, Eternally Grateful? I mean, I know you want the same for others as you have, for sure. But... why do you pray to God for the salvation of others? If His granting of salvation depends on the person's will, then, why pray to God

Because no one can WILL themselves to heaven.

It does not depend on my will. The tax collector did nto well himself to heaven, In bancrupcy of his spirit. he cried out for God to save him, He had to have faith that God would. That has nothing at all to do with his will

Like I told Christian Soldier, put your calvinist playbook down, Look to the bible. and open your mind to Gods truth.. You are seing things that are not there, and attributing to other people. things they are not saying

You can not have a conversation when you do that.. All you do is cause people to get upset of tryign to explain to yu how you keep saying things about them that are not true.

Why do I pray for people. Because I love them, And I want God to work harder in their lives so they can make the decision to trust him. Not so they can will themselves to heaven.

please stop !!!

Not very well, apparently. I never mocked you. Never.

Maybe not on purpose. but sometimes we do with the words we use.

No fishing. You can answer for yourself.

Sorry I have had to many of these conversations, and they all go the same, Maybe you were not purposely fishing, But this is what they do.

Well, this much is true... :)


So, your will determined God's will, which, ironically, is a taking away of His free will and a forcing of His hand...

Lol. Thats Funny, Jesus said the tax collector went home justified. he did nto say the tax collector took Gods will away

Give it up my friend. You just mocked me again, Yet you said you never did that..

Shake your heard to yourself..

Yes, so answer it. You're still avoiding it, it seems, so really, to me, that's an answer in and of itself. :)


So it's the same question. Why pray? You know, especially ~ and this is a strong hint, but surely no sure thing that you will answer correctly ~ "Your will be done..." or "...not as I will, but as you will..."

Grace and peace to you.

This is getting old..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Stating your opinion and using unbiblical phrases such as "maintain your salvation" is just evidence you don't use scripture to receive instruction in righteousness.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17


Please post scripture to make your point -


Here is how the scriptures instruct us to remain in Him -

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Question -


Do you confess your sins to God in order to be forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness?


If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9




JLB

you evidently do not know scripture very well. considering I posted scripture and you claim I did not. because I did not put chapter and verse. I am sorry you are so lacking in scripture knowledge that you can not recognize it when you see it

once again, Paul said this (I will put chapter and verse and book down this time, so you can not accuse me again of not posting scripture)

Since you did those things you said you did, and are saved, do you have confidence like paul?

Philippians 1:6
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

I am confident that God will complete it. are you? and if you are not. why are you not confident, where is your faith?

 

[Scott Downey]

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10


God desires for the elect to also obtain salvation.

Yes of course. It is only the elect who are saved. Paul acknowledeges this. Not that the elect wont be saved. No one elected is lost in the new covenant.

 

[Scott Downey]

The new covenant is not the old. It is entirely different.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

In your opinion only.

whatever

Nope.

lol. whatever, I think I have the right to say if someone did something to me, where you believe it or you do not does not make it untrue,

Do you understand these not to be the same thing? Born again of the Spirit? Because they are...

What kind of Question is this?

I am born again of the spirit BECAUSE I have been baptized into the death of Christ, and my sins were washed away,

Right, and in like manner, spiritually, the same is true: you were not spiritually alive previous to your being born spiritually, born again of the Spirit. You were (and I was) spiritually dead; we were dead in our sin. Yes, exactly.

Exactly. Until I was justified.

And the bible says this happened BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH.

Right, but you were sinning every day before ~ and after, actually ~ you were born spiritually. Before you were born again spiritually, you were, like the rest of mankind, a child of wrath.

Yep I was condemned, why? Because I was in unbelief, and I stayed condemned, Until I looked to the cross in faith and called out to Jesus.

LOL! Woodenly speaking, they are very different things, for sure, but... see above. Wow.


Absolutely correct, and similarly... :) See above. You were dead in your sin. As was I.

Yet I had free will. Again they are not the same, you saying they are is not helping your case. Again, put your calvinist playbook down. and read the word.

Jesus would not tell Nicodemus he has to be born of the spirit. then when nicodemus asked how. saying as moses lifted to the serpent, so to must the son of man be lifted up that WHOEVER (anyone has the ability and actually the responsibility) looks in faith will never perish but has everlasting life. if that did not have to happen.

When Moses lifted the serpent, those who in faith looked were saved, those who refused to look in unbelieve remained on their [ath to death and eventually suffered that death.''

I can not just skip over this part of Jesus words on HOW to be born again because you say it is not important or does not matter,,

After the Spirit had worked in your heart. Remember again what Paul tells the Philippians, to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

These people were already saved, and he said work out what you have.

I am talking about before salvation, so why would you bring a verse used by self righteous save yourself people to try to prove you point about how one comes to Christ?

We do the willing and working, Eternally Grateful, and it is because God works in us.

Yes, AFTER WE ARE SAVED.

I am talking about before. can you keep up with the conversation please.

I already called out to God in faith before these things happen..

I get that loud and clear. I can say that should not be so, but surely you are your own person.

I can say you shoudl not believe the way you do also. But what good will it do. and what does it do to add to the conversation?

Those who would agree with you on this misunderstand Calvinism in the same ways you do.

I do not misunderstand calvinism my friend. Please don't use the strawman that just because people disagree with you they do not understand you. that's a copout. and an argument I expect from a catholic not a reformed..

You have not shown me in any way I misunderstand what you believe, if anything you keep re-enforcing what I understand you to believe by what you say

 

[PinSeeker]

Being one of God's elect depends upon God's foreknowledge of the believer who is saved which is by grace through faith.

Again, what you say is correct, but you are understanding God's foreknowledge in a different way ~ a mere, cognitive knowing beforehand, as if God looked forward in time and saw who would choose Him and thus predestined ~ that Paul does, as should be clearly evident in what he says in Romans 8:30 and beyond. Again (cutting and pasting from above):

You will agree, I'm sure, that we must understand Paul's context there. It is possible to understand 'foreknew' as a cognitive knowing beforehand; that is not an invalid understanding of that term in and of itself. If we are to understand it in that sense, though, that makes what Paul is saying to be nonsensical, even contradictory, because in that sense, God foreknows ~ cognitively knows beforehand ~ everyone and everything. But Paul, in saying "those whom He foreknew," is very clearly referring to a limited group, and thus very clearly implying that there are at least some that He did not foreknow. So, his use of the word 'foreknew' must have at least a slightly different... :) ...meaning, or connotation.

How then should we understand it? Well, I would submit to you, JBO, that in various places in the Bible, knowing something or someone is directly said ~ both in the Old Testament Hebrew and the New Testament Greek ~ in the context of intimacy, of loving and serving someone... doing something for them and... causing something to happen. Consider Genesis 4, where we read that "Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain" (Genesis 4:1). We can assume the same is true subsequently of Abel because of the "And again" at the first of Genesis 4:2. Likewise, in Genesis 4:17, Cain knew his wife, and then in Genesis 4:25, Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and called his name Seth." So this knowing is in a very different sense, obviously, because, just woodenly speaking, of course Adam and Cain knew who their wives were, but knowing in that sense would not cause them to conceive and bear children, right?

But we should understand this 'foreknew' in Romans 8:30 in a very similar sense: loved beforehand... and even chose for Himself... beforehand. And that can ~ and should ~ take us back to what John says, as I cited above, that "We love because He (God) first loved us" (1 John 4:19). Now, yes, God loves all His creation, but He does not extend His mercy to all, but only extends that mercy to those He chooses/elects. That might seem... unloving... but the fact is that He is not obligated to extend that mercy to anyone, as none are deserving of it, and in fact deserving of just the opposite. And Paul tells us why he extended this mercy to some and not all, and that he was wholly within his right to do so. The potter (God, the Creator) has every right over the clay (us, the created), to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use, and so to extend mercy to one but not the other.

You are not an apostle.

I... didn't say I was... or am... or will be... :)

Besides He chose Judas.

And yet Judas betrayed Jesus...

Israel was God's chosen. To be chosen is to be an elect. All Israel were chosen. Not all Israel were saved.

But yet, as Paul says in Romans 11:26, all of Israel will be saved. So, JBO, who really is Israel? Who does the Israel of God truly consist of... include? Well, Paul tells us there in Romans 11:25-26 ~ "...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..." ~ after having told us in Romans 2:28-29 who true Jews of God are ~ "...no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit..." ~ and then saying in Romans 9:6 that "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel..." So... :) Again, JBO, who, really is Israel? Who does the Israel of God truly consist of... include?

Clearly there is chosen for service and chosen for salvation.

Well, yes, and the same group of folks is in view; that we are chosen for salvation means that we were chosen to serve Him ~ "for honorable use," as Paul says in Romans 9:21, and thus "vessels of mercy" (Romans 9:23), and "created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them," which Paul also says, this in Ephesians 2:10.

You are saying that everyone God ever chose to do something He wanted was saved...

Um, no... :) See above.

Romans 9 says He chose Pharoah.

Hardened, actually. But He did use Pharoah to accomplish His purposes, which, certainly, He can do with any part of His creation. So, chose Pharoah for what? :) Well, I would say, "for dishonorable use..." and that "God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known His power, endured with much patience..." Pharoah, a "vessel of wrath," for the sake of His glory and for the good of those He created "for honorable use..." his elect, both then and now, "in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy... even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles..." (Romans 9:21-24) As Paul has just said at that point, "...we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose." (Romans 8:28).

The tired old fallacy of trying to tie God's foreknowledge to the euphemistic rendering of the word "know" for sexual intercourse...

Not merey sexual intercourse; that is only the human-to-human expression of the deepest intimacy possible, which is not merely physical, but very spiritual.

"Tired old fallacy..." Well, I was about to laugh at that, but it's no laughing matter. Just a terrible, terrible misconception. Yeah, no laughing matter at all.

It is the height of redefining a word to avoid what it actually means.

Hmm, well I would say to that ~ echoing God's own words given through Isaiah:

"'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD. 'For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts'" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

We are to understand the word "foreknow" to mean to know beforehand...

No, because Paul's very clear context ~ and God's really, as it's really His Word ~ is quite different than that.

The discussion of God's right over the clay is about using it in this life.

That cannot be, as Paul, in discussing God's right of the clay, clearly and irrefutably speaks of God's making us ~ creating us ~ for these specific purposes, either for honorable use or for dishonorable use.

The "honorable use" and the "dishonorable use" in Romans 9:21 is obviously not about salvation and condemnation.

Not immediately, but clearly, those He made for honorable use are those He has had or will have mercy and compassion on, and these are clearly His elect (Romans 9) ~ those "He chose... in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him," who "in love He predestined... for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His Will" (Ephesians 1).

To be continued... :)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Continued from above...



Good, And, being convicted assured by God and convicted by the Spirit ~ given this faith ~ what do we then do? :) There are several correct answers to that question... :)

Well you have faith coming to soon.

The first step is repent. Thats why John came to baptize. to convince these jews that they had to repent of their thinking.

When moses lifted the serpent, the children of Israel had seen many miracles by that time, So they were adequately convicted That God would spare them and do what he promised to do. They also Had gods assurance that he moved them out of Egypt and was taking them to a land he promised. what they lacked is faith. Just like the people in John 6, who had witnessed the miracles of Jesus.. They did not need any more assurance or conviction. But in both cases.many refused to acknowledge and come to faith, because they refused to repent.

Ah, so you're saying God gives everyone this saving faith

No, I never said any such thing, Again, please out your calvinist blinders down. Stop reading what I say and giving the calvinist answer. Thats why these arguments get out of hand, and people get so frustrated, Keep this up and you will be calling me arminian also.. why would you do such a thing????

I said they have the ABILITY to have faith.. Saying one has the ability. and saying they have faith are not the same

, even as much as a mustard seed. If so, then why is not everyone saved, Eternally Grateful?

Why? Because he who believes is not condemned he who does not believe is condemned already

Like moses put the serpent on the pole. Jesus is there for everyone to see. But they have to trust him, He will not force you or anyone else to trust him.

This saving faith is only given to those who are born again of the Spirit,

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and the only ones born again of the Spirit are God's elect, those He has chosen from before the foundation of the world.

Write. But they are elect BECAUSE they aare born again, Not born again BECAUSE they were elect. if this were the case, they would be born physically alive in christ and not need to be born the second time, or saved by Grace through faith, they would already be saved

LOL!


Sure it is. But the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord, right?

I never said otherwise now did I?

Ah, well, removed it in the sense that He paid the those wages of sin on behalf of those God gave Him... which includes you and me, and all of God's elect, Jews of God, the Israel of God... :)

He paid the wage of sin for the world. Moses did not put the serpent up so only the elect would. see, he put it up so all could see. But only those who chose to look in faith were saved.

Um, well who's this "we" you speak of, EG? :)

Everyone born of a woman

No doubt we do...


Made righteous in Christ... imputed His righteousness... and thus justified. Sure. But not "not guilty," as Jesus was, but absolved of guilt, despite our guilt.

Your trying to put a calvinist spin on it. Listen to what I am saying.

I am guilty, But I am justified why? Because I have the righteousness of God imputed to me, just like abraham had it imputed to him

God does not see my filth, he sees his sons righteousness.

Well, again, it's all one thing, faith included ~ which is the assurance from God of things hoped for and the conviction by the Spirit of things not seen ~ and the gift of God.

Faith comes first.

The work of God.

Never said otherwise

The work of God.

Never said otherwise

The work of God.

Never said otherwise. see how sickening this gets.. This just proves you either are not listening to a word I have said, or you doing what I said and looking through a calvinist playbook checking all the checkboxes..

The result of God ~

Never said otherwise

what we have because of and in the ongoing work of God.

Never said otherwise

All of which is the work of God...

Never said otherwise (this is getting real old real quick. Your not paying attention at all..

And our faith ~ and justification, of course ~ is the work of God.

Never said otherwise. we can not boast of this faith, because we can not come to this faith by ourselves

But we still have to chose to act in faith (look to the cross) or continue to deny in unbelief (reject the cross.)

I hope no one is doing that; surely I am not. But making faith a work of man quite contrary to God's Word...

No one is saying faiht is a work of man, the only people who say this is a calvinist. who uses it as an argument to deny free will. another "check list" I guess from the calvinist playbook. Make everyone who believes in free will say that it is the work of man that we believe in the one and only Jesus

and removing faith from the equation of Ephesians 2:4-11, as I have said.

But you are removing faith from the equation. If I am born again before I have faith, I have no need to ever have faith, because I am already made alive in Christ. My sins would have already been forgiven (back to that calvinist playbook again, stop looking at it. and look to the word to see what God really says and understand what you are saving and stop denying it.

To all; this is the general call to salvation, sure...


Ah, well, almost agree... :) In a way we are forced, I guess, but in another way we are not... We have to decide something about a lot of things, but some choose not to make a decision, saying, "Okay, I'm willing to believe in God and Jesus and all that stuff, but I need to see evidence, so I'm withholding any decision...", or something like that, but really, the decision not to make a decision is... very much a decision. :) And it so doing, that take option A... And the inward call of God on our hearts cannot be avoided, as it is the purpose of God, which cannot be thwarted. The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

Ok rita. (I knew this was a calvinist argument, she denied it, thank you for proving me right.

You can not ignore the rest of John 3. Yes, I ahree, I did not feel God enter me, I did not feel or know where it even came from.

But I know when it happened, because I did what Jesus said we were to do to be born again, I trusted him, I looked to the serpent, I looked to the cross

Absolutely... always the result of the above. Yes, God's purposes cannot be thwarted, but if the above happens, our will will always be... even though we may fail from time to time... to do the will of our Father, God Himself. Instead of that of our former father the devil. So what you say here is the result of the work of God.


Same as above. Again, Joel tells us the order, God calls, and those whom He calls then call upon the name of the LORD. So again, what you say here is the result of the work of God.


LOL! No, everything you've said is very much Arminian,

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You did exactly what I predicted you would do

I am done with this conversation

 

[PinSeeker]

Continued from above...

And there is not a single verse in the whole of the NT that ever even suggests that baptism in water is just an "outward sign".

Sigh. It's outward in the sense that it is administered by preachers like Peter... and John the Baptist, who says in John 1, "I baptize with water..."

Even the baptism of John was for the remission of sin of the repentant believer.

John's baptism ~ and no baptism administered by man (or woman) after truly washes away sin. The washing of sin is a work of God by His Spirit, Who baptizes with fire.

Even the baptism of John was dependent upon repentance.

Hmmm, repentance is certainly a part of the equation, but not actually a requirement for, or a prerequisite for, this baptism. For those who are old enough, it is a sign that they have repented... and that they will continue to repent, as repentance is not a one-time thing in the life of the Christian but an ongoing, continual thing in this life. And in the case of those not old enough to express belief or repentance, it is an acknowledgment of and trust in God's promise to bring those children to belief and repentance in His time, which the parents belief and act on in faith.

The one being baptized must be old enough to recognize a failure and repent having done it.

Disagree; see above.

If you have children...

I do, thanks be to God.

...perhaps yours were much more intelligent and mature as babies then any that I have ever known or even heard about.

:) Don't think so... And it was really about me and my wife when they were baptized (both before they were a year old), about our faith in God to keep His promise to draw them to Himself in His time because they were the children of believers... and our returning promise to God to bring our children up in His nurture and admonition. This is a sacrament ~ sacraments, by definition, are means that use our sight, taste, touch, and smell... so they are outward signs in that respect... to impress upon us the same promises of the Gospel found in Scripture; they are not ends in themselves but always point us to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross as the only ground of our salvation ~ given to us by God, along with Communion.

Baptism of one because of the faith of another?

Well, this is why parents should have their children, regardless of age, baptized. In that way, it mirrors what was required of the Israelites in the Old Testament, which, again, we should be able to see in Colossians 2:11-12.

If that were possible, I would be baptized for every person I know who I think might be lost.

LOL! Well, I appreciate the thought, but others have their own parents; our responsibility is to our own children, those who God has given us. :)

That smacks of the old heresy of RCC priests offering indulgences.

Yikes! No... See above... :)

I think you are terribly misguided in the whole concept of God's election.

Noted; I think the same of... several posters here. It is God's election, after all, not ours, which is what others inadvertently make it out to be.

However, it is more than just election that gets twisted. It is the whole of soteriology which becomes contaminated and infected to the core.

I agree, but in... kind of the reverse of the way you seem to be meaning that. As Paul says, "those whom (God) foreknew (God) also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom (God) predestined (God) also called, and those whom (God) called (God) also justified, and those whom (God) justified (God) also glorified" (Romans 8:29-30).

The very concept of God's grace is corrupted.

Well... not corrupted, really, but misperceived, in the respect that God's grace is made out to be something other than grace, which is exactly what Paul says in Romans 11:6 ~ "...if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace."

God, Himself, is maligned. I know that is not your intention, but that is, in fact, the result.

Okay, well, I know what you mean, but, with all due respect, despite your good intentions, I would attribute that very thing to you, JBO.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

PinSeeker: The work of God.​

Never said otherwise

Right, but while inadvertent, your inescapable misconception is that it is the work of man nevertheless.

No one is saying faith is a work of man...

Not intentionally, maybe...

...the only people who say this is a calvinist...

Absolutely, unequivocally not.

But you are removing faith from the equation.

Absolutely not; you are.

It is not me taking faith out of Paul's statement that "by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). You are doing that, Eternally Grateful, not me. You are removing faith from that equation and attributing our acquisition of faith, the assurance of things hoped for, which only God can give, to man. that man somehow manufactures this faith in himself. That puts you in the same boat as several other posters here... No, it is a part of the work of God.

I am born again of the spirit BECAUSE I have been baptized into the death of Christ, and my sins were washed away...

Ah, well, I agree, but Who (capital 'W') administered that baptism, EG? :) The baptism I am speaking of probably happened to you before... and maybe long before... you were baptized by some preacher...

Until I was justified. And the bible says this happened BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH.

Right, which is by the grace of God, and thus His work, not yours.

Yep I was condemned, why? Because I was in unbelief, and I stayed condemned, Until I looked to the cross in faith and called out to Jesus.

Hmmm... "looked in faith..." Yes, you looked in this way because of the faith you had been given...

Yet I had free will.

Of course. But you willed (and worked, and thus made your calling and election sure ~ as in evident to yourself and to others) because God was at work in you so that you would do so (Philippians 2:13).

See, again, it's not about your will, Eternally Grateful, it's about your heart, who you were created to be... and then re-created to be. God is your Creator, Eternally Grateful.

...put your calvinist playbook down. and read the word....

Okay, well, put your Arminian playbook down. :) The only Book I have in my hand is God's Word, which, you know, I keep quoting...

I can not just skip over this part of Jesus words on HOW to be born again because you say it is not important or does not matter.

Ummmm... Didn't say that... Wow.

These people were already saved, and he said work out what you have.

Well right, "work out," meaning to act on without reservation, sure.

I am talking about before. can you keep up with the conversation please.

LOL!

I already called out to God in faith before these things happen..

I've... certainly understood your thinking on this, so, yes, I've... "kept up." :)

I can say you should not believe the way you do also. But what good will it do. and what does it do to add to the conversation?

Well now that depends at least somewhat on one's humility (or lack thereof)...

I do not misunderstand calvinism my friend.

Ah, okay, well that then begs the question why you keep mischaracterizing it... making it into something it is not...

Please don't use the strawman that just because people disagree with you they do not understand you. that's a copout. and an argument I expect from a catholic not a reformed.

Um, well, people disagreeing with me doesn't always mean they don't understand me... :) But still, I say things... very clearly... and then you restate those things in a way very much in opposition to what I actually said...

You have not shown me in any way I misunderstand what you believe...

Well, I have, but you have rejected it (in addition to turning it into something entirely else). Which... I understand.

...if anything you keep re-enforcing what I understand you to believe by what you say..

Okay, but in view of the above, that's really on you, right? And that still doesn't make your understanding of what I believe correct... But, yes, you're certainly your own person.

I am done with this conversation

Well, there is no need for any anger or bitterness... But yeah, I'm good with what you say here... :) Still, though, I'm thinking I will get at least one reply... or retort, maybe... or mention... even after this... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[JLB]

you evidently do not know scripture very well. considering I posted scripture and you claim I did not. because I did not put chapter and verse. I am sorry you are so lacking in scripture knowledge that you can not recognize it when you see it

once again, Paul said this (I will put chapter and verse and book down this time, so you can not accuse me again of not posting scripture)

Since you did those things you said you did, and are saved, do you have confidence like paul?

Philippians 1:6
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

I am confident that God will complete it. are you? and if you are not. why are you not confident, where is your faith?

God loves us and has given all things pertaining to eternal life and Godliness.

God desires to complete His good plan and purpose for each and every one of His children.

The way we will carry out His plan for our life is living our life according to the Spirit, rather than the sinful desires of our flesh.

To be led by the Spirit of God.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:14

Those who are in Christ that walk according to the flesh, are under His condemnation.


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


Paul warns the Church at Galatia -

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21




JLB