Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

[GodsGrace]

To say that the dead are able to seek God, is a lie from the pits of hell. It's pure Demonic Doctrine and you have fallen victim to the lies of the Devil. You are saying that God is a liar and the Devil is speaking the truth.

Eph 2:5-6
even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Notice, this is speaking to born again believers who were dead in trespasses, it says "made us alive together with Christ". Made us alive, doesn't mean the dead were seeking God. A dead man could never seek God, because he hates God and only loves sin.

Romans 3:10-12
10 As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
Romans 3:10-12 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; So where does that put us? Do we Jews get a better break than the others? Not really. Basically, all of us, whether insiders or outsiders, start out in identical conditions, which is to say that we al as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DO As the Scriptures say: “There is no one who always does what is right, not even one. There is no one who understands. There is no one who looks to God for help. All have turned away. Together, everyon as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God; They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one w As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is As it is written and forever remains written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS [none that meets God’s standard], NOT EVEN ONE. [Ps 14:3] “THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD. [Ps 14 As the Scriptures say, “No one is righteous— not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one.” And the Scriptures agree, for it is written: There is no one who always does what is right, no, not even one! There is no one with true spiritual insight, and there is no one who seeks after God alon as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”
Gods Word tells us that none seek after God, but you say God is a liar and that dead men seek Him. There's no point in asking me to explain how those verses you listed don't support your false views. It's obvious your theology is not Biblically correct, so you don't have the capacity to discern the truth from lies. Romans 3:10-12 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; So where does that put us? Do we Jews get a better break than the others? Not really. Basically, all of us, whether insiders or outsiders, start out in identical conditions, which is to say that we al as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DO As the Scriptures say: “There is no one who always does what is right, not even one. There is no one who understands. There is no one who looks to God for help. All have turned away. Together, everyon as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God; They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one w As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is As it is written and forever remains written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS [none that meets God’s standard], NOT EVEN ONE. [Ps 14:3] “THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD. [Ps 14 As the Scriptures say, “No one is righteous— not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one.” And the Scriptures agree, for it is written: There is no one who always does what is right, no, not even one! There is no one with true spiritual insight, and there is no one who seeks after God alon as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

Thanks for replying with scripture.

I'd like to make 2 points - maybe 3:

1. You said that to state that man is able to seek God is a lie from hell.
It's not ME stating this CS....it's the bible stating this -- in both the OT and the NT.
I provided you with 3 pages of verses that exhort us to SEEK GOD.

If this is a lie from hell, then we should stop paying attention to the BIBLE,
and pay attention to the writings of the likes of John Calvin.

Jesus told us that the Kingdom of God is at hand.
Matthew 4:17
17From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Jesus is instructing us to REPENT because the Kingdom of God is at hand.
This is an INSTRUCTION. Jesus is instructing us on what to do BECAUSE the Kingdom is at hand.

Jesus further INSTRUCTS us to SEEK THE KINGDOM OF GOD:
Matthew 6:33
33“But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.


Please note that Jesus is telling us WHAT TO DO....He's telling us TO SEEK the Kingdom.
He's not saying to wait till God saves us to do the above....
The verses ARE CLEAR, plain, and simple too understand.

So, yes, Jesus is telling men that were DEAD spiritually,
TO SEEK the Kingdom and the righteousness of the Kingdom.


part 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

@Christian Soldier


part 2 of 2


2. Your verse: Let's check it out.
Romans 3:10-18
10as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

13“THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;

14“WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;

15“THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,

16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,

17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”

18“THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”



A. Notice that verse 12 states that ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE.
Meaning that it is possible to turn aside from God and return to our previous unsaved state.
Thus making Perseverance of the Saints an incorrect doctrine, as are all the doctrines of T.U.L.I.P.

B. Also notice that it starts with. IT IS WRITTEN, meaning that it's written somewhere else.
Where?
Psalm 14:1-4
1The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;
There is no one who does good.
2The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there are any who understand,
Who seek after God.

3They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.

4Do all the workers of wickedness not know,
Who eat up my people as they eat bread,
And do not call upon the Lord?


Psalm 14, which Romans 10 is addressing,
is about THE FOOL, Those that commit abominable deeds, of them there is none righteous or who does good,

it even here states that God is looking for those THAT SEEK GOD,

It states that they HAVE TURNED ASIDE,,,,,disproving, once again Perseverance of the Saints.

It's speaking about the WORKERS OF INIQUIETY,
Who DO NOT CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD.

Which means that even the wicked are ABLE to CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD.


What about the Word of God, and specifically what JESUS STATED, do you not agree with?

 

[JBO]

I encourage you to use a concordance and do a word search on 'appoint' or 'appointed' ~ both Old Testament and New ~ and... see what you find. In a certain sense, I agree with you, but this appointing is a work of God, not in and of ourselves. I would hope that no Christian believes he or she actually appointed for himself salvation or eternal life, but that, rather, we understand it in the way that Paul puts it to the Philippians:

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:12-13)​

Grace and peace to you, JBO.

In the middle voice subject both performs and receives the action expressed by the verb. The Greek word "tasso" is interpreted in the middle voice in Acts 20:13. In the context of Acts 13, it makes much better sense that it be translated/interpreted in the middle voice in Acts 13:48 also. In verse 46 the unbelieving Jews chose to reject eternal life. The counterpart to that was verse 48 where the believing Gentiles chose to accept (appointed themselves, arranged for themselves) eternal life.

You appointed yourself for salvation by believing in God. It was God's promise. It was your choice.

 

[JBO]

​

◄ Romans 6 ►

​

Berean Standard Bible Par ▾ Dead to Sin, Alive to God (2 Corinthians 4:7–18) 1What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may increase?2Certainly not! How can we who died to sin live in it any longer? 3Or aren’t you aware that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be united with Him in His resurrection. 6We know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin. 7For anyone who has died has been freed from sin. 8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, He cannot die again; death no longer has dominion over Him. 10The death He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life He lives, He lives to God. 11So you too must count yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its desires.13Do not present the parts of your body to sin as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and present the parts of your body to Him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. The Wages of Sin 15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law, but under grace? Certainly not! 16Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you once were slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were committed. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to escalating wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20For when you were slaves to sin, you were free of obligation to righteousness.21What fruit did you reap at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? The outcome of those things is death. 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you reap leads to holiness, and the outcome is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Great!
You just made my point.
The fact that they were written to those that are DEAD means that the DEAD are ABLE to SEEK GOD.

amen

Oh. Excuse me....did I misundertsand?
You mean THE SAVED are told they are to SEEK GOD??

I thought the saved, born again person, is ALREADY WITH GOD.

So the saved are still SEEKING GOD??

again amen

Please pick the verses of your choice and explain how they say what you've stated above.
Why do you twist scripture to suit your needs?

If GOD TELLS US
GOD TELLS US
To seek Him it means two things:

1. We are ABLE to seek God.
Would God tell you to do something He knows you cannot do??
Of course not.

2. It's the unsaved, or the wanderers that need to seek God.
NOT THE SAVED.
They've already found God.

Calvinism makes God a liar.
And those that do this will pay for it somehow.

God is probably not to happy that Calvinists change HIS NATURE.

Which is:
LOVING
MERCIFUL
JUST

Do you know what Just means?
In your own words....

And remember to pick a couple of verse out and we'll discuss them.

Try
Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

God rewards those who seek Him.

Please explain Hebrews 11:6

amen. Its a mock to Gods righteousness, and justice and love, all of which are perfect..

 

[PinSeeker]

You appointed yourself for salvation by believing in God.

In a certain way... Read on.

It was God's promise.

Well, He certainly promised something, yes, but His promise was never what any of us would do but rather what He would do.

It was your choice.

After His, yes. :) And His execution, in due time, of what He had appointed. :)

What you're saying, in effect, is that our being members of God's elect depends on our willing, which is directly and unequivocally opposed to Romans 9:16, that:

"it..." ~ which is the person's inclusion among God's elect, according to His purpose of election ~ "...depends not on the man who wills or runs, but on God, Who has mercy." ​

Again, it's not that we don't or can't make a choice, but rather that we will not ~ we will not believe and therefore will always choose the wrong because we are of our father the devil, as Jesus tells the Jews at the Feast of Dedication in John 10. Unless and until the Spirit works in our heart ~ as Jesus tells Nicodemus, "unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God... (t)he wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit" ~ bringing us from death in sin to life in Christ. If He does this, then we ~ upon hearing the Gospel, at the appointed time, having been freed from slavery to sin and death, changed from slaves of unrighteousness to slaves of righteousness, from children of the devil to children of God ~ will then, very freely, choose the right. As Ezekiel quotes God Himself:

"I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be My people, and I will be your God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses." (Ezekiel 36:24-29)​

"I," "I," "I"... The initial action is God's and God's alone. Salvation is of the Lord.

Again, I would encourage you to do a word search on 'appointed' throughout Scripture. You probably would find it very interesting... and possibly unsettling, at least at first. But then you just might find it to be the most encouraging, comforting, even assuring ~ which is what faith is; see Hebrews 11:1 ~ and praiseworthy thing imaginable. The peace that passes all understanding, as it were. To God be the glory, yes? Just this one should be enough, from Jesus Himself to His disciples (and us by extension):

"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide..." (John 15:16)

We do not appoint ourselves to be God's children. But, as Paul exhorts the Philippians (and us), we very much should "work out (our) own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in (us), both to..." ~ so that we "...will and to..." ~ again, so that we "...work for His good pleasure."

Grace and peace to you, JBO.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

After His doing so. :)

So what you're saying, in effect, is that our being members of God's elect depends on our willing, which is directly and unequivocally opposed to Romans 9:16, that:

"it..." ~ which is the person's inclusion among God's elect, according to His purpose of election ~ "...depends not on the man who wills or runs, but on God, Who has mercy." ​

Again, it's not that we don't or can't make a choice, but rather that we will not ~ we will not believe and therefore will always choose the wrong because we are of our father the devil, as Jesus tells the Jews at the Feast of Dedication in John 10. Unless and until the Spirit works in our heart ~ as Jesus tells Nicodemus, "unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God... (t)he wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit" ~ bringing us from death in sin to life in Christ. If He does this, then we ~ upon hearing the Gospel, at the appointed time, having been freed from slavery to sin and death, changed from slaves of unrighteousness to slaves of righteousness, from children of the devil to children of God ~ will then, very freely, choose the right. As Ezekiel quotes God Himself:

"I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be My people, and I will be your God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses." (Ezekiel 36:24-29)​

"I," "I," "I"... The initial action is God's and God's alone. Salvation is of the Lord.

Again, I would encourage you to do a word search on 'appointed' throughout Scripture. You probably would find it very interesting... and possibly unsettling, at least at first. But then you just might find it to be the most encouraging, comforting, even assuring ~ which is what faith is; see Hebrews 11:1 ~ and praiseworthy thing imaginable. The peace that passes all understanding, as it were. To God be the glory, yes? Just this one should be enough, from Jesus Himself to His disciples (and us by extension):

"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide..." (John 15:16)

We do not appoint ourselves to be God's children. But, as Paul exhorts the Philippians (and us), we very much should "work out (our) own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in (us), both to..." ~ so that we "...will and to..." ~ again, so that we "...work for His good pleasure."

Grace and peace to you, JBO.

This is in error

I could not will myself to heaven.

The tax collector did not will himself to heaven

 

[PinSeeker]

This is in error

Opinion noted and respected.

I could not will myself to heaven.

Absolutely right, but I would certainly say that your willing yourself is a very important piece of your... getting to heaven. :) Again, with all due respect, Eternally Grateful, by saying God's purpose of election depends on your willing rather than His, and thus that His will regarding election depends on your will, you are in direct conflict with what Paul says there in Romans 9, and you're inadvertently making God's purpose of election not His but yours.

The tax collector did not will himself to heaven

He did not. I agree. :)

Let me ask you a question, EG. Do you pray for the salvation of others? If so... why? :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Opinion noted and respected.


Absolutely right, but I would certainly say that your willing yourself is a very important piece of your... getting to heaven. :) Again, with all due respect, Eternally Grateful, by saying God's purpose of election depends on your willing rather than His, and thus that His will regarding election depends on your will, you are in direct conflict with what Paul says there in Romans 9, and you're inadvertently making God's purpose of election not His but yours.

All do respect. but saying me becoming poor in spirit and crying out for God to show his mercy is not me willing myself to heaven

You have an odd way of thinking of things, a person who is in deep in danger, totally unable to help them self can not will themselves out of danger, they must wait for someone to rescue them.

He did not. I agree. :)

then why would you say anyone else had?

Let me ask you a question, EG. Do you pray for the salvation of others? If so... why? :)

Why would I not? My Kids. Grandkids, Friends neighbors and anyone else.

Grace and peace to you.

Grace and peace back

 

[PGS11]

If the dead can't seek God then every soul born before the coming of Christ has been condemned to hell permanently with no chance of salvation.Doctrine says you can't find God if your dead you can only do it in life.But we know Jesus descended to hell to retrieve souls.Truth is no one knows we go by doctrine and accept it as fact. God is much more merciful than the thoughts of man who is in a fallen state..Anyone committing the same acts has no right to accuse others until they stop.

 

[JBO]

This is in error

I could not will myself to heaven.

The tax collector did not will himself to heaven

But you can will yourself to listen to the preacher preaching the word about Christ. And you can will yourself to believe the word about Christ and thus have faith (see Rom 10). And you can will yourself to be baptized. And as Jesus said, in believing and being baptized God will save you (Mark 16).

 

[JBO]

What you're saying, in effect, is that our being members of God's elect depends on our willing, which is directly and unequivocally opposed to Romans 9:16, that:

Romans 9 is so often misquoted as you have here. The mercy and compassion that is spoken of in verse 16 is not about salvation. It is about God's using them for His service here in this life. We know that from the very next verse where Paul says, 'For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." ' God's power is not shown by His saving or condemning anyone, since neither salvation nor condemnation is something that can be observed. What can be observed is what happens in this life. In Pharoah's case what was observed was all the things that God brought about as a result of the hardening of Pharoah. That was what showed God's power.

The whole point of Romans 9 was not God's choice in who He saved, but rather God's right to use anyone in any way He wanted without any obligation to saved them. It was the message to the Jews who thought that because they were Jews and belonged to God's chosen nation that God owed them salvation. God said that was not so: "But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring (vv. 6-8).

Romans 9 is not about election to salvation. It is about election for service. It is about God's right to elect anyone for service without electing them for salvation.

The metaphor of the potter and the clay is not a metaphor for salvation in the next life; rather, it is a metaphor for using anyone as He wants as He wants in this life.

 

[PinSeeker]

All do respect...

That's... due respect... Sorry, that's the compulsive part of me... :)

...saying me becoming poor in spirit and crying out for God to show his mercy is not me willing myself to heaven

That's... not what I'm talking saying. But, to that point, who causes you to realize your poorness in spirit? Who is it that gives you a new spirit, putting His Spirit in you ~ whoops, I just gave it away... :) ~ and thus precipitates your calling upon the Lord?

You have an odd way of thinking of things...

I can understand why you think that...

...a person who is in deep in danger, totally unable to help them self can not will themselves out of danger, they must wait for someone to rescue them.

I mean, there it is again... "can not." I keep saying, Eternally Gifted... I have no idea how many times it's been now, but quite a lot... it's not a matter of "can not," not a matter of woodenly not being capable of or able to, but rather will not, because of the inclination, the natural disposition of the person. Surely there are things that you will not do, for one reason or another, and probably because of who and what you are in your innermost being... your heart. With regard to choosing to call upon the name of the Lord, I'm okay with one saying 'can not' but only if he or she means that in the correct sense, that they cannot bring themselves to do it because of their disposition to and their resulting willing contrary to doing it, As I have said many times, with regard to God's salvation and the resulting calling upon the Lord, it's not really initially about the will, it's about the state of the heart, and that drives the will. Again drawing upon what God says in Ezekiel 36, God changes the heart from stone to flesh, putting a new spirit in that person, even His Spirit. And this is initially His choosing, according to His purpose of election, not ours.

then why would you say anyone else had?

I don't remember saying anything regarding any tax collector or any other like person. :) And certainly, if I had said anything regarding that sort of person, it would most certainly not be that he or she had "willed himself to heaven."

Why would I not? My Kids. Grandkids, Friends neighbors and anyone else.

Well, so you do, and that's fantastic, but you seem to have ignored or missed the second question... Why? :)

Grace and peace back

Thank you. Grace and peace to you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

But you can will yourself to listen to the preacher preaching the word about Christ. And you can will yourself to believe the word about Christ and thus have faith (see Rom 10). And you can will yourself to be baptized. And as Jesus said, in believing and being baptized God will save you (Mark 16).

Well I could repent. I am not sure I would call that to will myself

And what does water baptism have to do with salvation. If I willed myself to do this work of righteousness to be saved, I would still be lost. because I trusted in what I did. not in what God did.

 

[PinSeeker]

If the dead can't seek God then every soul born before the coming of Christ has been condemned to hell permanently with no chance of salvation.

Well, right, and they won't... until... see above. But God..." :) See Ephesians 2:4-10...

Doctrine says you can't find God if your dead you can only do it in life.

Same as above... God "makes us alive..." See Ephesians 2:4-10.

God is much more merciful than the thoughts of man who is in a fallen state..

Ah... Okay. Yes. :)

Anyone committing the same acts has no right to accuse others until they stop.

I mean, I would submit to you that we all have the right to call what is wrong, wrong... what is sin sin... even though we are still guilty of it from time to time. It might make us out to be hypocritical to some extent, but you know, hey, if it's wrong, if it's sin, it's just as wrong and sinful for us as it is anyone else.

Grace and peace to you, PGS.

 

[JBO]

Well I could repent. I am not sure I would call that to will myself

Did someone else force you to repent? I don't think so.

And what does water baptism have to do with salvation. If I willed myself to do this work of righteousness to be saved, I would still be lost. because I trusted in what I did. not in what God did.

No, you would be trusting in God to do as He has promised. And He has promised that in baptism in the name of Jesus Christ He would forgive your sins and give you the gift (the indwelling) of the Holy Spirit. Baptism is the neither the basis for nor the means for salvation. Baptism is the occasion for when God gives you that gift of salvation. Baptism is the time when God promises to do that for you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That's... due respect... Sorry, that's the compulsive part of me... :)


That's... not what I'm talking saying. But, to that point, who causes you to realize your poorness in spirit?

No one caused me to do anything

They led me, But I had to make a choice.

Who is it that gives you a new spirit, putting His Spirit in you ~ whoops, I just gave it away... :) ~ and thus precipitates your calling upon the Lord?

I called on the lord THEN was given the spirit

You have it backwards as usual. God can;t give me the spirit while I am still under the penalty of sin..

I can understand why you think that...

do you? really?

I mean, there it is again... "can not." I keep saying, Eternally Gifted... I have no idea how many times it's been now, but quite a lot... it's not a matter of "can not," not a matter of woodenly not being capable of or able to, but rather will not, because of the inclination, the natural disposition of the person.

Thats just plain nonsense.

God could create the heavens and earth in 6 days. He can bring a person to see the truth of him and give that person the opportunity to say yes or no.. Why woudl we lack Gods ability?

Surely there are things that you will not do, for one reason or another, and probably because of who and what you are in your innermost being... your heart. With regard to choosing to call upon the name of the Lord, I'm okay with one saying 'can not' but only if he or she means that in the correct sense,

But if they can not. Then NO ONE can be saved.

its black and white..

that they cannot bring themselves to do it because of their disposition to and their resulting willing contrary to doing it,

But that is not what we see in scripture. Not what happened to me, and not what has happened to I would say millions since adam first sinned.

As I have said many times, with regard to God's salvation and the resulting calling upon the Lord, it's not really initially about the will, it's about the state of the heart, and that drives the will. Again drawing upon what God says in Ezekiel 36, God changes the heart from stone to flesh, putting a new spirit in that person, even His Spirit. And this is initially His choosing, according to His purpose of election, not ours.

State of the heart.

All one has to do is repent. To acknowledge their sin debt, to acknolwldge they are lost. and without hope.

You say the natural man can not do this yet they do it all the time. With earthly matters and spiritual matters.

I don't remember saying anything regarding any tax collector or any other like person. :) And certainly, if I had said anything regarding that sort of person, it would most certainly not be that he or she had "willed himself to heaven."

Jesus showed what we must do to go home and be justified. as apposed to the legalist who thought he did not need saved.

if you do not become as the tax collector. you will not be justified.

Well, so you do, and that's fantastic, but you seem to have ignored or missed the second question... Why? :)

I did not see a second question can you repeat it?

Thank you. Grace and peace to you.

Grace and peace

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Did someone else force you to repent? I don't think so.

No one forced me to do anything

I did it of my own free will..

No, you would be trusting in God to do as He has promised. And He has promised that in baptism in the name of Jesus Christ He would forgive your sins and give you the gift (the indwelling) of the Holy Spirit.

No he did not promise any such thing, He promised if I believed in him, I would recieve the baptism he was baptized with.

Baptism is the neither the basis for nor the means for salvation. Baptism is the occasion for when God gives you that gift of salvation. Baptism is the time when God promises to do that for you.

Baptism in water is not even in the same sphere.

God said he would do it when we believed in him.. And that it is through the baptism of the spirit by which we are saved. water baptism comes much later

 

[PinSeeker]

Romans 9 is so often misquoted as you have here.

Well no, because I've quoted it verbatim. If you were to say 'misunderstood,' then I would agree with that in principle, but I would then say, "right back atcha." :)

The mercy and compassion that is spoken of in verse 16 is not about salvation. It is about God's using them for His service here in this life.

No, it's about God's purpose of election. The 'it' of Romans 9:16 refers directly to the individual's being of God's elect. God's using them... "vessels made for honorable use" (Romans 9:21)... for His honorable purposes is a result of these individuals being "vessels of (God's) mercy" (9:23). As God ~ and thus Moses and Paul ~ all say, God "has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever he wills" (Romans 9:15,18). And this ~ "it..." ~ "...depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy" (Romans 9:16).

The whole point of Romans 9 was not God's choice in who He saved, but rather God's right to use anyone in any way He wanted without any obligation to saved them.

It's both. It's about God's mercy; "He has he has mercy on whomever he wills, and He hardens whomever he wills." There is good reason why this is right in the middle of Romans 9; it ties the whole chapter together.

Romans 9 is not about election to salvation. It is about election for service.

Both, really; our service of Him is precipitated by His election. As this same Paul says:

"He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will... In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him Who works all things according to the counsel of His will... In Him you also, when..." ~ when, not because ~ "...you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory" (Ephesians 1:4-14).

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:1-10).

It is about God's right to elect anyone for service without electing them for salvation.

It's about both; our doing (serving God, both now in this life and in the life to come) is (and will be) the result of our having been given (God's mercy).

The metaphor of the potter and the clay is not a metaphor for salvation in the next life; rather, it is a metaphor for using anyone as He wants as He wants in this life.

Ah, well salvation... Do you not agree that we are both saved and being saved? Because both are true... God "began a good work in us and..." ~ and ~ He "...will bring it to completion at the day of Christ" (Philippians 1:6).

So, I agree with the second half of your assertion here... :) ... but it's not either-or but rather both-and. Paul, in Romans 9, in rhetorically asking, "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?", is referring directly to Isaiah 64;8, where Isaiah says, "But now, O LORD, You are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our Potter; we are all the work of Your hand." And this is right after, in verses 5-7, Isaiah has said, "Behold, you were angry, and we sinned; in our sins we have been a long time, and shall we be saved? We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. There is no one who calls upon Your name, who rouses himself to take hold of You; for You have hidden Your face from us, and have made us melt in the hand of our iniquities."

Grace and peace to you, JBO.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well no, because I've quoted it verbatim. If you were to say 'misunderstood,' then I would agree with that in principle, but I would then say, "right back atcha." :)

this does not mean you know what it says, everyone here quotes scripture verbatim, it does nto mean they know what it means.

quoting scripture and knowing it are two different things, the Pharisee proved them.