Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

[PinSeeker]

@PinSeeker odd you did not respond to these lovely OT passages about the return of Isreal

Goodness gracious, I'm so sorry. <chuckles> Yes, I agree that they're lovely. <biiiiig smile>

And I'll just say to all of it what I have said before, that generally speaking, the lesser ~ which was fulfilled long ago (the Israelites of old, who comprised Lesser Israel, returned to Jerusalem) ~ points to... foreshadows... the greater ~ which will be fulfilled when, as Isaiah puts it, we all... well, this is too beautiful not to quote directly:

And the ransomed of the LORD shall return
And come to Zion with singing;
Everlasting joy shall be upon their heads;
They shall obtain gladness and joy,
And sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
[Isaiah 35:10]

Isaiah 35 is one of my most favorite-est... :) ...passages in all of God's Word.

So, there you go. <smile> Yes, all of God's Word is lovely... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Goodness gracious, I'm so sorry. Yes, I agree that they're lovely. :)

And I'll just say to all of it what I have said before, that generally speaking, the lesser ~ which was fulfilled long ago (the Israelites of old, who comprised Lesser Israel, returned to Jerusalem) ~ points to... foreshadows... the greater ~ which will be fulfilled when, as Isaiah puts it, we all... well, this is too beautiful not to quote directly:

And the ransomed of the LORD shall return
And come to Zion with singing;
Everlasting joy shall be upon their heads;
They shall obtain gladness and joy,
And sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
[Isaiah 35:10]

Isaiah 35 is one of my most favorite-est... :) ...passages in all of God's Word.

So, there you go. :) Yes, all of God's Word is lovely... :)

Grace and peace to you.

But non of those passages have been fulfilled yet? We just ignore them? And spiritualise them and say they are all fulfilled in Christ?

What Kind of God makes a promise to a people. Then turns his back on that promise and claims he did nto mean it really, it was just a parable. He was really speaking of something different?

Sorry, i can not buy that

That would not be lovely that would be a slap in the face not only God the people who god promised WOULD REPENT, WOULD BE RESTORED And WOULD LIVEIN THEIR LANd AGAIN, only to not mean a word he said..

 

[Christian Soldier]

Who is boasting, but the calvinist who thinks he or she is special that God chose them and did not chose many other people.

Reformed theology is not sound, it is no more sound than Arminian theology or Roman Catholic theology. They are all flawed to the tooth.

Yes I do boast in my Savior, because He is worthy of all praise and glory. You Arminians boast in your faith and claim that you were saved by employing your faith to force Gods hand and accept your faith as a saving work of salvation. This is highly offensive to me as it means that Jesus suffered for nothing.

You can deny all the various systematic theologies, all you like but it doesn't change the fact that you exhibit every Arminian doctrine, except for (OSAS) and that makes you very confused because your trying to juggle two opposing interpretations of the gospel.

You have failed to describe which theology, you actually subscribe to. That shows your like a ship on stormy waters, being tossed around by every wind of doctrine, without any rudder or direction.

 

[PinSeeker]

I think the reason so many "Christians" reject what Gods Word says about His sovereignty in salvation, is that it leaves no room for their ride or boasting.

Meh. I don't think that's always the case. But sometimes, maybe.

They simply cannot embrace Gods Word as it was spoken, so God gave them over to serve sin and Satan.

Ahhhh, now. They just misunderstand. Or, maybe they don't want to admit, even to themselves, that they might be mistaken, which... You know, pride is a really, really, really pervasive sin.

2 Timothy 4:3-4

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

This is why so many, reject the sound Reformed interpretation of the Bible and invent different "seeker friendly" gospels, which pervert the truth and lead people to hell.

Many times, yes. But I think pride... and idolatry, too, actually... are just such prevalent sins. And, none of us are immune. :) One day it will no longer be so.

Grace and peace to you, CS.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Still

All pop and not a lick of scripture.

Your a master in your own head..

Lets see you deny these scriptures, and make up your own, to refute them as you go.

Romans 9:15-24
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.”

Exodus 33:19
And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the Lord before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.”

John 15:16
Verse Concepts
You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

John 17:6
Verse Concepts
“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

Romans 9:10-13
And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.”
Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 1:21
She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

These are just a few verses, I can list another 110 similar verses to show that salvation has nothing to do with mans choice or ability to discern the truth, but it has everything to do with Gods choice before He created the world.
Now lets see you refute what God has said and twist it to support your works based false gospel, which can't save anyone.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes I do boast in my Savior, because He is worthy of all praise and glory.

But you’re not. You boasting in the fact God chose you over someone else.

You Arminians boast in your faith and claim that you were saved by employing your faith to force Gods hand and accept your faith as a saving work of salvation.

once again, I am not arminian. Can someone tell this person he is making an utter fool of himself? anyone here knows I am not arminian, My theology more closely resembled a calvinist theology than it does arminian theology.

And I do not boast in my faith. I did nto trust myself. I boast in God. He is trustworthy.. thats why I trusted him, I am sorry if this offends you. But God is worthy of my faith, my trust and my praise.

This is highly offensive to me as it means that Jesus suffered for nothing.

Well you saying he died for you and not other people is highly offensive to me, it states God is not a God of love

You can deny all the various systematic theologies, all you like but it doesn't change the fact that you exhibit every Arminian doctrine, except for (OSAS) and that makes you very confused because your trying to juggle two opposing interpretations of the gospel.

lol. Dude, I reject arminian theology.

You are brainwashed, You are told how to argue, you are told to look for things people say and attack them as arminian.

once again, Put your calvinist playbook down. And try for once in your life to have an actual conversation with someone.

You have failed to describe which theology, you actually subscribe to. That shows your like a ship on stormy waters, being tossed around by every wind of doctrine, without any rudder or direction.

Really?

My faith is in God. Like moses who lifted the serpent, so to was the son of man lifted. that whoever believes in him will not perish but has eternal life. for god so loved the world he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes in him will never perish bit has eternal life. For God was sent not to judge the world. But that the world through him might be saved, he who believes in him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already. Because he has not believed.

My faith is in God. Like the word said, But as many as have recieved him (I have recieved him) to them (me) he gave the right to become children of God

Jesus said, whoever sees and believes the son has eternal life, whoever does not believe shall not see life but the wrath of God abides in him.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by his mercy he saved us, by the washing (baptism and renewal (regeneration) of the Holy Spirit

for we have been given every spiritual blessing under heaven

Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness, As david says, blessed is the man to whom god will not impute sin. The blessing which was given to abraham would be given to everyone who had this faith of abraham, the father of us all.

There is scripture my friend. Thats my gospel. Pure and undefined. Not of works, lest anyone should boast. But is it by GRACE THROUGH FAITH we have been saved,

You want to remove faith from the equation. You are scared for whatever reason. Come to God. Repent, and he will give you rest. Or continue in your mockery of God and who he is. And never find rest. And continue to prove to myself and the chatroom how angry you are by the way you attack people who disagree with you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Lets see you deny these scriptures, and make up your own, to refute them as you go.

Romans 9:15-24
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.”

1. Read the OT passage, I totally agree with what is said here It does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs. I cannot will myself to heaven, and I can not work myself to heaven. And he raised up pharaoh KNOWING everything that pharoah of his free will would do. See God is mark, he not only knows what a man will do. He knows how to gen them to do it.. (See Jonah)

Exodus 33:19
And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the Lord before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.”

Yep. As I said, See above

John 15:16
Verse Concepts
You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

Yes, I agree, He chose that those who are saved will bear fruit.. But literally he was talking to the 12 (although one was the devil)

John 17:6
Verse Concepts
“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

yep. Amen, But this does not prove your point, or prove me wrong. Next

Romans 9:10-13
And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.”
Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

this is paul arguing the false claim that jews made that

1. Their fathers were chosen because they were righteous. No, God chose them before they were even born
2. God did Chose Israel. And love that nation more than he loved the nation of Edom (esau) whome he hated (literally loved less)

it does not prove your point, Nice try

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Yep. Read this part. God chose you through sanctification and faith or trust in the truth.

This proved me right thank you

Matthew 1:21
She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

Yep. And he did. Although he saved everyone from their sin if they would accept his offering, Sadly, people reject his offering, so they will send themselves to hell

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

For ot is by GRACE you have been SAVED THROUGH FAITH.

Yes, thank you this passage supports everything I have said.

These are just a few verses, I can list another 110 similar verses to show that salvation has nothing to do with mans choice or ability to discern the truth, but it has everything to do with Gods choice before He created the world.

Yet you failed in even these few passages.

Again, Put your calvinist playbook down. And actually study the word.

Now lets see you refute what God has said and twist it to support your works based false gospel, which can't save anyone.

I did not refute what God said, i agree with him, But I thoroughly refuted your misunderstanding of the very verses you quoted.

 

[Christian Soldier]

If we fill a prison with people who have done wrong and are deserving of incarceration, but during their life sentence one person remembers something someone had spoken to them years prior about a Person who can forgive them of their wrongdoing and provide freedom from their imprisonment. This person repents and is born again. He shares his experience which impacts more and more inmates until every person is born again and their lives show a change in them to the point that the prison warden makes a case to the High Court that all these prisoners are reformed and fit to re-enter the wider community. More than that, that these people have a lot to contribute to the wider community.

Would you be in favour of the wardens proposal or would you think that they are beyond reform and should suffer without mercy? Be it a child who dies at 3 months or Hitler or Satan. That never ending torture and suffering is fit for all regardless of their offence, (in the case of a person dying as a baby, the offense is being born in Adam) or the many offences of the Devil.

None of that has any place in reality, it belongs in some fairy tale story.

The truth of the Bible is, that those who die in their sin are condemned for all eternity. They never hear the gospel message in hell, and they would never respond with faith even if they did hear it because they are too busy screaming and in the flames and blaspheming the name of God.

You see and hear unbelievers using the name of God as a cuss word, every time a small incident occurs. They always shout out the "F" word followed by Jesus, or they say Holy "F", so if they blaspheme the name of God over small incidents, imagine how much more they will continue to blaspheme the name of God while they suffer in hell fire. This suffering continues day and night forever and ever, and so does their blasphemy. They never find a moment of peace, in which they can repent.

As for my being in favor or against the wardens proposal, that is inconsequential. My wishes or opinions don't count for anything and neither do those of any man. The only thing that matters is Gods opinion and wishes, and He has already revealed what He's going to do with those who die in their sin. And there is no provision in His revelation for another chance at salvation in hell.

We should also consider that everyone one will be punished according to their deeds, so not every sinner will suffer the same punishment in the pits of hell where the fires are much hotter, than those in the upper regions of hell. Likewise, the saved people will be rewarded according to how much fruit they produced, so heaven also has many levels.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Thank you for seeing the point I was making... A false convert was never in Christ.

Now that we have that point out of the way, there is no need to bring it up again since we both agree,


My point that I am making is about people who are "in Christ", and then they are no longer in Christ, having been removed from Christ.


Let's look at some context -


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:1-6

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

These people were in Christ then removed from Christ by God the Father who Jesus describes as the Vinedresser.

• “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;

Those who remain in Christ will bear much fruit, however the point is to remain in Christ. As I have shown.



Here is how this same Apostle John instructs us to remain in Christ -

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

• If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

The contextual teaching here is about those who are in Christ.

No mention of false converts. Only those who are in Christ.




JLB

So you agree that the born again believers can never be cast out or cut off, because they truly abide in Him and not only, by their confession or lip service as false converts do.

 

[Christian Soldier]

These are the words of Jesus Christ.

Again, this same John plainly and clearly teaches us how to remain in Christ.

Here is how this same Apostle John instructs us to remain in Christ -

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Jesus then explains the parabolic language with this literal statement of explanation.

• If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Plainly this refers to "ANYONE" who does not remain in Christ.





JLB

Yes I agree with everything above, I just wanted to make sur that you agree that only born again believers abide in Christ. I mean Christ would never amputate His members from His body. He only cuts of the tares and false converts who don't belong to His Body, but He would never do this to a genuinely converted person.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Good God. John 15 is not about false converts, it’s about producing fruit. People who do not produce fruit he lifts up (chastens) or prunes (cuts some bad parts off) so they produce fruit. If they have stopped being of any help o God, he takes the home

its sad we would twist the word of God to help our belief come true

You can't twist Gods Word to make it say that burning branches makes them good again. Burning them destroys them, this is a parable about the lake of fire and those false professors who will be cut off and cast into the lake of fire. If you can't connect the dots, then it shows your in denial of the truth.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Typical Roman Catholic logic.

You left the church, but sadly you kept a lot of her arguments

True.

But if you look at it, there are really not 45000 different churches, thats a ploy. There are only three gospels.

Licentiousness
Grace
Legalism

All churches fall into one of these three categories.

The church is the laughing stock because it has th most arrogant, prideful people claiming to be like God and trying to make everyone believe and act like they do. As if they are something special.

Then again, Thats how satan works, He did it to the jews, and he did it with the church

Actally, I grew up a baptist. And most of the stuff I was taught I now reject. Because I put aside my pride, and my arrogance. And started to actually study the word for myself.

I never said i did Stop your arrogant attack on a person you do not even know..

We all should test every spirit, If your putting your eternity in the hands of any man, you are but of most pitiful. Your faith is in them, and the fact they got it right. And your eternal destiny is based on if that man got it right or not

let me tell you. Eternity is far too long to make that mistake.

They can;t all be right, So many shepherds claim they are leading people to God when in reality they are leading them right to hell

OK, so you left the Church and now you just study the word for yourself. That means that you fell away from the Body of Christ and are now a rouge Sheep. There are no rouge Christians, you either belong to the Body of Christ or you don't.

Christ is building His Church but you have walked away from it to pursue your own private spiritual journey. That tells me everything I need to know about your interpretation of Gods Word.
God has appointed Shepherds to lead confused Sheep, but you say "no thanks God, I'm gonna do it my way" God says OK, bye.

God places His elect into the Body of Christ, you do enter because of your wisdom or intelligence. You won't find a faithful Shepherd, unless God sends you one. You won't find the truth, unless God reveals it to you. So relying on your own wisdom and intelligence can only result in being deceived by the doctrine of Demons.

You don't have to take me advice, but I would urge you to stop trusting in yourself and place your trust in Christ. He is the one who done everything necessary to save His people, salvation of sinners is not dependent on anything we can contribute.

 

[Christian Soldier]

But you’re not. You boasting in the fact God chose you over someone else.

once again, I am not arminian. Can someone tell this person he is making an utter fool of himself? anyone here knows I am not arminian, My theology more closely resembled a calvinist theology than it does arminian theology.

And I do not boast in my faith. I did nto trust myself. I boast in God. He is trustworthy.. thats why I trusted him, I am sorry if this offends you. But God is worthy of my faith, my trust and my praise.

Well you saying he died for you and not other people is highly offensive to me, it states God is not a God of love

lol. Dude, I reject arminian theology.

You are brainwashed, You are told how to argue, you are told to look for things people say and attack them as arminian.

once again, Put your calvinist playbook down. And try for once in your life to have an actual conversation with someone.

Really?

My faith is in God. Like moses who lifted the serpent, so to was the son of man lifted. that whoever believes in him will not perish but has eternal life. for god so loved the world he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes in him will never perish bit has eternal life. For God was sent not to judge the world. But that the world through him might be saved, he who believes in him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already. Because he has not believed.

My faith is in God. Like the word said, But as many as have recieved him (I have recieved him) to them (me) he gave the right to become children of God

Jesus said, whoever sees and believes the son has eternal life, whoever does not believe shall not see life but the wrath of God abides in him.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by his mercy he saved us, by the washing (baptism and renewal (regeneration) of the Holy Spirit

for we have been given every spiritual blessing under heaven

Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness, As david says, blessed is the man to whom god will not impute sin. The blessing which was given to abraham would be given to everyone who had this faith of abraham, the father of us all.

There is scripture my friend. Thats my gospel. Pure and undefined. Not of works, lest anyone should boast. But is it by GRACE THROUGH FAITH we have been saved,

You want to remove faith from the equation. You are scared for whatever reason. Come to God. Repent, and he will give you rest. Or continue in your mockery of God and who he is. And never find rest. And continue to prove to myself and the chatroom how angry you are by the way you attack people who disagree with you

Who God chose to save before He created the world is none of my business and I don't care about that. So I can only speak for myself, as I don't know who else He chose to save. I boast in Him for saving me, I can't boast on your behalf because I don't know if you're saved or not. Anyone can claim to be saved, because words are cheap.

I don't know who the Lod died for, only the individual and God Himself know. Others ca only make assumptions but they can never know for sure. By falsely claiming that your faith saved you, puts you squarely in the Arminian camp. I claim I was saved by Gods grace and you claim your faith saved you, so you subscribe to the gospel of works and I adhere to the gospel of grace. Can you see the difference, it seems like you can't understand simple truth.

There's no point in quoting John 3:16 if you don't believe what it says, you seem to have an irresistible urge to twist Gods Word every single time. You will never understand Gods Word until you abandon your distorted lens.
Let me remind you of what you contribute to salvation, 1. A stinking corpse, 2. Filthy rags. Apart from those two you have nothing, so please stop pushing your privately owned and manufactured faith as the thing that saves you. It's an abomination in Gods sight.

 

[One 2 question]

None of that has any place in reality, it belongs in some fairy tale story.

I wonder how many people said that to Jesus that His parables belongs in some fairy tale story. And Paul an apostle to the Romans when he told his story, for example, about a potter and his clay. It belongs in a fairy tale story???

The truth of the Bible is, that those who die in their sin are condemned for all eternity. They never hear the gospel message in hell, and they would never respond with faith even if they did hear it because they are too busy screaming and in the flames and blaspheming the name of God.

Who told you that they will never hear the good news of Jesus the Sacrificial Lamb, Whose blood has been shed that can remove the sins of all people? This suffering continues day and night forever and ever, and so does their blasphemy. They never find a moment of peace, in which they can repent.

imagine how much more they will continue to blaspheme the name of God while they suffer in hell fire. This suffering continues day and night forever and ever, and so does their blasphemy. They never find a moment of peace, in which they can repent.

Can you sustatiate this picture you have imagined here or is it a prophecy of what beings in hell will be spending their time doing?
And that God said to you that they will never find a moment of peace, in which they can repent.

As for my being in favor or against the wardens proposal, that is inconsequential. My wishes or opinions don't count for anything and neither do those of any man. The only thing that matters is Gods opinion and wishes, and He has already revealed what He's going to do with those who die in their sin. And there is no provision in His revelation for another chance at salvation in hell.

Ok we will discard your previous opinions about what is going to happen in hell.

What do you mean by the words, 'in His revelation'?

We should also consider that everyone one will be punished according to their deeds, so not every sinner will suffer the same punishment in the pits of hell where the fires are much hotter, than those in the upper regions of hell. Likewise, the saved people will be rewarded according to how much fruit they produced, so heaven also has many levels.

Again, we will discard your opinions here about what is going to happen in hell and heaven at your request.

I look forward to seeing my Creators' love extend beyond those in His kingdom to all those outside His kingdom. To see Their irresistible grace draw ALL His creatures to Themselves.

 

[Christian Soldier]

1. Read the OT passage, I totally agree with what is said here It does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs. I cannot will myself to heaven, and I can not work myself to heaven. And he raised up pharaoh KNOWING everything that pharoah of his free will would do. See God is mark, he not only knows what a man will do. He knows how to gen them to do it.. (See Jonah)

Yep. As I said, See above

Yes, I agree, He chose that those who are saved will bear fruit.. But literally he was talking to the 12 (although one was the devil)

yep. Amen, But this does not prove your point, or prove me wrong. Next

this is paul arguing the false claim that jews made that

1. Their fathers were chosen because they were righteous. No, God chose them before they were even born
2. God did Chose Israel. And love that nation more than he loved the nation of Edom (esau) whome he hated (literally loved less)

it does not prove your point, Nice try

Yep. Read this part. God chose you through sanctification and faith or trust in the truth.

This proved me right thank you

Yep. And he did. Although he saved everyone from their sin if they would accept his offering, Sadly, people reject his offering, so they will send themselves to hell

For ot is by GRACE you have been SAVED THROUGH FAITH.

Yes, thank you this passage supports everything I have said.

Yet you failed in even these few passages.

Again, Put your calvinist playbook down. And actually study the word.

I did not refute what God said, i agree with him, But I thoroughly refuted your misunderstanding of the very verses you quoted.

There now, you butchered every single verse in a vain attempt to make them support your false religious view.

You say here that it doesn't depend on man who wills, but in other places you make it sound like everything depends on mans faith. You can't have it both ways, salvation is either all of the Lord, or it's a joint effort between God and man.

Talking to thew twelve is not the same as talking about the twelve, Judas i a Devil. He was never saved and he never will be saved so you need to go back and study that.

You are wrong about John 17: 6 because it proves that your works gospel is false.

You are dead wrong about Paul referring to the Jews when He quoted God saying "Esau I have hated while he was in his mothers womb". The reference was about Esau not being one of Gods elect, while his brother was. Don't go adding this nonsense to what God clearly said.

You're dead wrong about God loving the nation of Israel, that is absolute in your face heresy. God never loved any nation, He only loves Himself and those whoa re in Christ and that is the Israel of God. Not some nation that killed all of His prophets, what's there to love about God haters and murderers.
God never hated Edom, that's another one of your heresies. He saved many Edomites so, you can't say He hated people He loved enough to save.

God did not choose me through sanctification, or faith or for trusting in His Son. These things were applied after God saved me, so you have twisted it to read backwards which is typical of those who reject Gods Word as it was spoken. That proves me right, thank you!!!...

You're dead wrong about God offering salvation and some rejecting it, and your dead wrong about some sending themselves to hell. Nobody choses to go to hell, they are all cast into hell begging for mercy but God only shows them His wrath.
God never offered salvation to anyone, so you're dead wrong as usual. He either saved you before He created the world or you will never be saved. So this idea that God offers salvation is pure heresy.

"SAVED THROUGH FAITH"????? big question you keep dodging is who's faith are you saved through. Were you born with it, or did you manufacture it yourself or was it given to you by God. If you admit it was given to you, then stop making it yours and boasting in your faith because it's not yours at all and your pride will condemn you if you don't repent of it.

You butchered every single one of these verses, because they all expose your heretical theology.

 

[JBO]

Aside: Now, they didn't physically die, clearly, but this death was of a different nature. They became dead in their sin; their spirits became dead to God and thus in need of rebirth of the Spirit. Remember what Jesus says to Nicodemus in John 3:6... "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."​

So, that condition was and is passed down to his (Adam's) progeny... all of mankind, as Eve is the mother of all the living (Genesis 3:20). That makes us all, naturally speaking, from birth, even from conception, dead in our sin... having a sinful nature ~ and thus of course not in Christ, but in Adam, and thus in need of Christ and salvation... and God's mercy. From our very beginning, we are fully deserving of the wrath of God.

Those two statements are incompatible. The condition of dead in sin is a condition of the spirit. That condition cannot be passed down from parent to child -- Spirit, not flesh, begets spirit. The spirit of man comes from God (Zech 12:1; Eccl 12:7); it does not come from flesh, i.e., from parents. The spirit from God is not dead in sin. Having a sinful nature is not sinful. Having a sinful nature is not a condition for being dead in sin. That happens when the one with the sinful nature actually sins. Clearly Adam and Eve had a sinful nature as created. Otherwise, they would not have sinned. Having a sinful nature is nothing more than having the free will to choose to obey or disobey.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

OK, so you left the Church and now you just study the word for yourself. That means that you fell away from the Body of Christ and are now a rouge Sheep. There are no rouge Christians, you either belong to the Body of Christ or you don't.

Christ is building His Church but you have walked away from it to pursue your own private spiritual journey. That tells me everything I need to know about your interpretation of Gods Word.
God has appointed Shepherds to lead confused Sheep, but you say "no thanks God, I'm gonna do it my way" God says OK, bye.

God places His elect into the Body of Christ, you do enter because of your wisdom or intelligence. You won't find a faithful Shepherd, unless God sends you one. You won't find the truth, unless God reveals it to you. So relying on your own wisdom and intelligence can only result in being deceived by the doctrine of Demons.

You don't have to take me advice, but I would urge you to stop trusting in yourself and place your trust in Christ. He is the one who done everything necessary to save His people, salvation of sinners is not dependent on anything we can contribute.

Dude. You are all over the place are you sure you’re not Catholic. You are just like them you hear what you want to here interpret that you you want and then make an utter fool of yourself when you respond by proving you did not hear a word anyone said

I said I test the spirits. Just like God commanded me to

I said I study to show myself approved a workman that needs not be ashamed. Rightly dividing the word of truth

Not like you who does not test the soirits and evidently does not study to show yourself approved even when you read what others say.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Who God chose to save before He created the world is none of my business and I don't care about that. So I can only speak for myself, as I don't know who else He chose to save. I boast in Him for saving me, I can't boast on your behalf because I don't know if you're saved or not. Anyone can claim to be saved, because words are cheap.

I don't know who the Lod died for, only the individual and God Himself know. Others ca only make assumptions but they can never know for sure. By falsely claiming that your faith saved you, puts you squarely in the Arminian camp. I claim I was saved by Gods grace and you claim your faith saved you, so you subscribe to the gospel of works and I adhere to the gospel of grace. Can you see the difference, it seems like you can't understand simple truth.

This is my last post to you. I am putting you in my prayer bin. I will give you some advice

1 my faith did not save me God did. Because like the tax collector who became poor in spirit and got on his knees and cried out for gods mercy. Who went home justified

You do not have to know anyone else God chose. You still boast in the fact god chose you. Like arminians and Catholics and other legalistic churches it’s all about you and what ever you did (you just deny you did anything but your still special because God chose you! I can’t help you see this. No one can if you do not humble yourself. I have yet to see a humble bone in your body since you came in here charging like a lion to devour people who reject your theology. You prove my point just be speaking

There's no point in quoting John 3:16 if you don't believe what it says, you seem to have an irresistible urge to twist Gods Word every single time. You will never understand Gods Word until you abandon your distorted lens.
Let me remind you of what you contribute to salvation, 1. A stinking corpse, 2. Filthy rags. Apart from those two you have nothing, so please stop pushing your privately owned and manufactured faith as the thing that saves you. It's an abomination in Gods sight.

And here is the second reason I am ignoring you. You said I do not understand John 3. Then failed to tell me what about John 3 I dis
Not understand. And then puked out your Calvinist twist. And you ignored evert other passage I posted which proves we are saved atHROUGH (not by) faith. That without faith it is impossible. god will not force his salvation on you

Good day

 

[JBO]

Continued from above...


Well, believing ~ and repenting... and of course choosing ~ is (are) certainly an act (acts) of the will, absolutely. There can be no doubt about that. We have brains, and we use them to do all these things. :) But what drives that will? Why do you do the things you do? Make the decisions you make? And subsequently ~ in view of what I said above about us being, naturally, from birth, before we are born again of the Spirit, dead in our sin, how will we naturally always, as a result, uh, use our brains? Until that point, concerning God Himself, because of our disposition toward Him, exercise our will? I think you know what I'm getting at, but as a gentle nudge in the right direction... :) ...remember what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2:18, that "(t)he natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

The "natural man" in 1 Corinthians 2:14 is in contrast to the divinely inspired (spiritual) man, i.e., apostles and prophets. The entire chapter, chapter 2 of 1 Corinthians is Paul's statement and defense of his, and the apostles, divine inspiration. Sorry, Pinseeker, you are only a natural man. The passage of verses 6-16 is Paul's support and confirmation that the source of his message and preaching (v.4) is indeed "in demonstration of the Spirit", and what Paul is preaching and teaching comes directly from the Holy Spirit.

The doctrine of illumination which so many would like to imagine for themselves is absolutely and totally false.

 

[JBO]

As you can see from those verses, man has no ability t all to understand Gods Word, unless God reveals it to him.

You are proclaiming is that God is incapable of effectively communicating with the unregenerate. Either that or God intentionally chooses to not effectively communicate with the unregenerate. In that case, there can be no blame attached to the unregenerate for the failure to obey God. The blame must be God, Himself. That is an affront to God and is definitely false.