Does John 5:24-29 contradict the belief that one must believe in Jesus to avoid eternal death?

[Raccoon1010]

I've grown tired of your snide tone. I won't be engaging you further. Take care.

Tone? Interesting. The only people I put on ignore are people that promote evil or harass people.

 

[Augustin56]

You seem to be missing the point;Some truths are not Christ-centered as I already showed.

Referring to John 21:25 DOES NOT say we are under some obligation to know things about Christ not written, only that such things exist. See the difference?

False Alternative. See bold part above.

Your flawed analysis, rhetorical question is leading to where you want. There is no Oral Tradition revealing the truth that Florida is south of Maine. This means truth exists outside Christeology.

"Referring to John 21:25 DOES NOT say we are under some obligation to know things about Christ not written, only that such things exist." Correct. You have to read Matt. 28:20 in light of John 21:25 to come to the conclusion that we are to know all that Jesus did and taught. He commanded the Apostles to do so.

Your flawed analysis, rhetorical question is leading to where you want. But you really haven't disproven my analysys, and yes, I am leading you to where I want...the truth!

Oral Tradition has to do with the oral teachings of Christ to the Apostles, who handed it on to their successors, the bishops, who have done likewise for about 2000 years now.

The issue with Florida, etc., has to do with truth in general. All truth is about reality. All reality comes from God, who holds everything that exists in being. I probably should have pointed out the distinction between the truths of Divine Revelation and general truth in order to avoid you becoming confused. My apology.

 

[Augustin56]

Yes, only to Peter, who has long since died.

Ok. Now we're on the right path of thought, I think.

IF He only gave that authority to Peter, why bother to give Peter the keys? The "keys" were a symbol of authority in the ancient middle east. It signified a dynastic (meaning, it will have successors) position, second to the king. Whenever the king was unavailable (away at war, visiting other kingdoms, ill, etc.), this second-in-command ruled the kingdom with the king's authority! Whatever this person bound or loosed was held up by the king upon his return. And whenever this second-in-charge died, he was replaced by another. It wasn't a one-off position. The symbol of this office of authority was a large key (or two), usually about 2-3 ft. long, which he carried over his shoulder as a symbol of his authority. See an example of the "key" in Isaiah 22:22.

 

[Wrangler]

So, you deny Scripture, that you claim is the only source of truth, right?

Matt. 16:18-19, "And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
The "keys" are a symbol of authority, easily recognized by the culture in Jesus' culture and time in Israel. The loosing and binding are a delegation of authority from Christ to Peter.

Yes, only to Peter, who has long since died.

did He intend this to be an ongoing thing going forward for His Church?

The way to tell is ...

That while Peter could perform miracles his "successor's" could not.

 

[Raccoon1010]

Yes, only to Peter, who has long since died.

That while Peter could perform miracles his "successor's" could not.

I see that in a lot of churches that claim authority from Christ. No miracles. Hmmm.

 

[Jay Ross]

Like half the folks on here.
View attachment 32211

I agree but the worse of the lot are the stirrers and stokers for the wars on here who are dishonest with their POV's.

 

[Jim B]

Ok. Now we're on the right path of thought, I think.

IF He only gave that authority to Peter, why bother to give Peter the keys? The "keys" were a symbol of authority in the ancient middle east. It signified a dynastic (meaning, it will have successors) position, second to the king. Whenever the king was unavailable (away at war, visiting other kingdoms, ill, etc.), this second-in-command ruled the kingdom with the king's authority! Whatever this person bound or loosed was held up by the king upon his return. And whenever this second-in-charge died, he was replaced by another. It wasn't a one-off position. The symbol of this office of authority was a large key (or two), usually about 2-3 ft. long, which he carried over his shoulder as a symbol of his authority. See an example of the "key" in Isaiah 22:22.

However, Jesus called Peter "Satan" and "a stumbling block". Paul also chastised him for his hypocrisy in Galatia.

And He didn't give His authority to Peter. He gave it to him and eleven others, then to Paul personally.

Peter was just one person and he had serious character flaws. He was the only person whom Jesus ever called Satan!

 

[St. SteVen]

Patrick1966 said:

So then what happens to those resurrected who had done good?

They get judged, but good works alone don't meet God's criteria for salvation. If they did Christ's death was unnecessary.

Heb 3:12-13 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. (13) But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Don't meet "God's criteria for salvation"?
Like what?

cc: @Patrick1966

 

[St. SteVen]

@Patrick1966
New thread to check out. Please join in. Thanks.

Skepticism versus gullibility

Just heard a sermon that came down pretty hard on skepticism. Trying to process how I feel about that. Thanks for listening. (send help) It appears that there is no room for healthy skepticism in the church. But for some reason the skeptics weren't called gullible. No one was, actually. We are...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Stumpmaster]

Don't meet "God's criteria for salvation"?
Like what?

Rom 10:8-13 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: (9) that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. (10) For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved. (11) It is just as the Scripture says: “Anyone who believes in Him will never be put to shame.” (12) For there is no difference between Jew and Greek: The same Lord is Lord of all, and gives richly to all who call on Him, (13) for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

 

[St. SteVen]

Rom 10:8-13 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: (9) that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. (10) For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved. (11) It is just as the Scripture says: “Anyone who believes in Him will never be put to shame.” (12) For there is no difference between Jew and Greek: The same Lord is Lord of all, and gives richly to all who call on Him, (13) for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

That works. Even under the earth.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

 

[Stumpmaster]

That works. Even under the earth.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

Universalism means the exile from Eden, the Great Flood, the issuing & enforcement of the Law, the Babylonian Captivity, and all of God's penal judgments are immoral.

Revelation 5:13 depicts all Creation, good or bad, righteous or unrighteous, in heaven or not, as acknowledging and applauding the superlative quality and worthiness of the Redeemer. This does not mean all people will be saved by the Redeemer, just that the unsaved acknowledge the worthiness of the Redeemer whom they have rejected, with eternal consequences.

 

[Patrick1966]

That works. Even under the earth.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

In my experience one can share a dozen verses and the vast majority of our brethren will utterly ignore all of them.

 

[Jack]

In my experience one can share a dozen verses and the vast majority of our brethren will utterly ignore all of them.

That's because most of what you quote are the ones you like. And you ignore the verses you don't like. Why is there the Book of Life if everyone is going to be saved?

 

[bluedragon]

I'm assuming they are considered Godly because they observe a moral code and do good works, but neither of these give access to heaven and eternal life.

Romans 5:1-2 (STANDING)

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Titus 2:11- 14 (STATE)

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The Grace of God:
1. Brings salvation.
2. Has appeared to all men.
3. Teaches us:
a. Deny
Ungodliness
Worldly lusts
b. Live
Soberly
Righteously
Godly
c. Look
For that blessed hope
For the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.

There is a serious problem with that belief. One room of Shoel is now empty and forever more will be. Jesus says he is the only way. No one comes but by him. That finalises the deal.

Shoel existed with two rooms. one housed those who were Godly and worshipped God. Jesus freed the captives.......Now this is obviously up to God and Jesus ......but the room was emptied and Jesus drew the line in the sand ....

 

[Stumpmaster]

There is a serious problem with that belief. One room of Shoel is now empty and forever more will be. Jesus says he is the only way. No one comes but by him. That finalises the deal.

Shoel existed with two rooms. one housed those who were Godly and worshipped God. Jesus freed the captives.......Now this is obviously up to God and Jesus ......but the room was emptied and Jesus drew the line in the sand ....

Not sure what you mean . . . do you question the two Scripture references I posted or what?

 

[bluedragon]

Not sure what you mean . . . do you question the two Scripture references I posted or what?

No, the text is right ....But God and Jesus can always change their minds and include people they haven't mentioned in the Bible. Possibly because the Bible is not the complete storyline.
So, I can't embrace certain absolutes ....Just because some author of a book missed that statment because he went to the bathroom and wasn't in the room.

 

[Stumpmaster]

No, the text is right ....But God and Jesus can always change their minds and include people they haven't mentioned in the Bible. Possibly because the Bible is not the complete storyline.
So, I can't embrace certain absolutes ....Just because some author of a book missed that statment because he went to the bathroom and wasn't in the room.

What do you think is missing . . . that you think should be included in the canon?

 

[St. SteVen]

Universalism means the exile from Eden, the Great Flood, the issuing & enforcement of the Law, the Babylonian Captivity, and all of God's penal judgments are immoral.

Can you defend those actions as moral and right?
What's wrong with this picture?

 

[St. SteVen]

In my experience one can share a dozen verses and the vast majority of our brethren will utterly ignore all of them.

Yes.
Bible versus Bible gets us nowhere.