Does John 5:24-29 contradict the belief that one must believe in Jesus to avoid eternal death?

[Lambano]

Do you think that people prefer to be dead or suffering in misery rather than be in paradise?

Depends on the cost of Paradise.

 

[Patrick1966]

Depends on the cost of Paradise.

Not even Jesus's own words will convince the "Forever Hell" crowd that Jesus doesn't stop searching for the "lost sheep" until he has collected ALL of them.

Luke 15:3-4
3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?

 

[Lambano]

Not even Jesus's own words will convince the "Forever Hell" crowd that Jesus doesn't stop searching for the "lost sheep" until he has collected ALL of them.

Luke 15:3-4
3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?

Yep. And Jesus said other things like selling all you own to buy the field with a buried treasure, or to buy the expensive pearl. Anytime I try to put it all together into a comprehensive system, I get cognitive dissonance.

 

[Patrick1966]

Yep. And Jesus said other things like selling all you own to buy the field with a buried treasure, or to buy the expensive pearl. Anytime I try to put it all together into a comprehensive system, I get cognitive dissonance.

Undoing Satan's deceptions is difficult and sometimes impossible to overcome.

 

[Lambano]

Depends on the cost of Paradise.

Not even Jesus's own words will convince the "Forever Hell" crowd that Jesus doesn't stop searching for the "lost sheep" until he has collected ALL of them.

Hmm. Why didn't the Father go out looking for the Prodigal Son and haul his sorry ass back home? Why did he wait until the Prodigal Son's pain became greater than the payback and he decided on his own to come back?

Find the cost of freedom...

 

[Patrick1966]

Hmm. Why didn't the Father go out looking for the Prodigal Son and haul his sorry ass back home? Why did he wait until the Prodigal Son's pain became greater than the payback and he decided on his own to come back?

Find the cost of freedom...

I believe that, eventually, ALL people will go to God. The prodigal son went his own way, suffered, and realized that he needed to go to his father. That's the lesson that ALL people learn, sooner or later.

 

[Lambano]

I believe that, eventually, ALL people will go to God. The prodigal son went his own way, suffered, and realized that he needed to go to his father. That's the lesson that ALL people learn, sooner or later.

Back in college, sci-fi writers Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle came out with a book called Inferno, a modern reboot of Dante's classic. "A Hell of a book", wrote one reviewer. Hah hah. Towards the end of the book, the protagonist (a dead science fiction writer himself) comes to the conclusion that Hell is God's asylum for the theologically insane. Some come to realize their condition for what it is and get well. Most do not. God is patient.

 

[Raccoon1010]

Do you think that people prefer to be dead or suffering in misery rather than be in paradise?

God has a loving family. I think the question might better be, do we want to be part of his loving family? Or are you bitter and cold towards others? Do you treat them like family? Is that what you want?

 

[Raccoon1010]

I believe that, eventually, ALL people will go to God. The prodigal son went his own way, suffered, and realized that he needed to go to his father. That's the lesson that ALL people learn, sooner or later.

Not everyone will turn to God.

 

[Patrick1966]

Not everyone will turn to God.

Verse?

 

[Patrick1966]

Or are you bitter and cold towards others? Do you treat them like family? Is that what you want?

So now this discussion is about me?

 

[rwb]

John 5:24-29 esv

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.


In verse 24 Jesus says that believers have "eternal" life.

In verse 29 Jesus says those resurrected who did "good" will have life. Notice Jesus said nothing about faith or belief.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I'm gleaning that believers in Jesus go straight to Heaven. Unbelievers are DEAD in the ground until their resurrection on the last day but those unbelievers that were nevertheless Godly people will remain among the living forever.

The hour that is NOW HERE, when the DEAD hear the voice of the Son of God is not speaking of physical death, but of those DEAD spiritually, being physically alive. Being dead in trespasses and sins is not dead physically but spiritually. Our natural spirit must be quickened or made alive in Christ, and this happens when we hear the Gospel, the Word of Christ, preached and according to grace through faith we believe.

Ephesians 2:1 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:4-5 (KJV) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Romans 10:8-17 (KJV) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

There is another hour that is coming in which ALL (without exception) who are in the graves will hear His voice. To be in the grave/tomb means those who have physically died. Whosoever has physically died will be resurrected to physical life again when the last trumpet sounds. Those who have done good are those who heard the Lord's voice in the hour that NOW IS through the Gospel preached in the power of the Holy Spirit. Those who were spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, but made spiritually alive by His Gospel call, are those who have done good, and are resurrected to life. But the rest of the dead in the graves, having heard the Lord's Gospel call, not being mixed with faith are those who have done evil, because they steadfastly refused to believe so they will be physically resurrected for judgment and condemnation in the lake of fire. All mankind can hear the Gospel preached, but if the hearing does not produce faith in the one hearing the Gospel of Christ is of not avail for them.

Hebrews 4:2 (KJV) For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

To summarize Jo 5:24-29 - this is a depiction of both spiritual resurrection life through Christ for whosoever hears according to grace and believes Christ, and it is also a depiction of the physical resurrection that shall come when time given this earth hearing the Gospel preached shall be no longer.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[Augustin56]

Some things are true that are not Christ's truth. For instance, Florida is south of Maine. It's not in the Bible, yet it is true.

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." John 14:6 Everything that is true, is of Christ. All true education, if followed back all the way, leads to God.

Note: Nowhere in the Bible does the Bible say that it is the entirety of what we are to know. In fact, it says the opposite! See John 21:25, "There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written."

And, yet, Jesus commanded the Apostles to teach all that He had taught them. See Matt. 28:20, "...teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

So, if everything we are to know is not in the Bible, where's the part we are to know that isn't in the Bible? It's in Holy Tradition, aka, oral tradition. (Tradition in this sense does not mean common customs, but "teaching.") Where do we find oral tradition mentioned in the Bible? In 2 Thes 2:15, "Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." St. Paul is speaking here of Holy Tradition (oral tradition) and Scripture (written tradition). In fact, the New Testament came out of Holy Tradition. Some of what the Apostles taught orally was written down. That's the New Testament.

 

[Raccoon1010]

So now this discussion is about me?

I was making a generalization, it wasn't about you personally.

 

[Raccoon1010]

Verse?

Try the sheep and goats parable, Revelation or other areas of the bible that spell out hell for many. Do you believe the bible?

 

[Wrangler]

Do you think that people prefer to be dead or suffering in misery rather than be in paradise?

It’s not rational by no one ever said ego based action was rational.

 

[Augustin56]

I deny anyone now has the authority of Christ here on earth.

So, you deny Scripture, that you claim is the only source of truth, right?

Matt. 16:18-19, "And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
The "keys" are a symbol of authority, easily recognized by the culture in Jesus' culture and time in Israel. The loosing and binding are a delegation of authority from Christ to Peter.

John 20:21-23, Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

Jesus appeared to the Apostles in the upper room and said, "As the Father has sent me..." How did the Father send Jesus? With all the heavenly authority of God! Then, He said, "...so I send you." So, Jesus delegated His heavenly, Godly authority to His Apostles in the upper room.

So, now the question is, did Jesus do this as a one-off thing, just for Peter in Matt. 16:18-19, and the Apostles in John 20:21-23, or did He intend this to be an ongoing thing going forward for His Church?

The way to tell is to see how the Early Church, the very first Christians, operated and believed, and clearly, they believed it should be an ongoing thing! The Apostles had successors, which we call bishops, who were given the authority of the Apostles, who had been given Christ's authority.

 

[Wrangler]

Note: Nowhere in the Bible does the Bible say that it is the entirety of what we are to know. In fact, it says the opposite! See John 21:25, "There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written."

You seem to be missing the point;Some truths are not Christ-centered as I already showed.

Referring to John 21:25 DOES NOT say we are under some obligation to know things about Christ not written, only that such things exist. See the difference?

So, if everything we are to know is not in the Bible, where's the part we are to know that isn't in the Bible? It's in Holy Tradition, aka, oral tradition.

False Alternative. See bold part above.

Your flawed analysis, rhetorical question is leading to where you want. There is no Oral Tradition revealing the truth that Florida is south of Maine. This means truth exists outside Christeology.

 

[Patrick1966]

Try the sheep and goats parable, Revelation or other areas of the bible that spell out hell for many. Do you believe the bible?

I've grown tired of your snide tone. I won't be engaging you further. Take care.

 

[Wrangler]

So, you deny Scripture, that you claim is the only source of truth, right?

Matt. 16:18-19, "And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
The "keys" are a symbol of authority, easily recognized by the culture in Jesus' culture and time in Israel. The loosing and binding are a delegation of authority from Christ to Peter.

Yes, only to Peter, who has long since died.