Does John 1:1 say Jesus is God
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RLT63
Well-Known Member
I don’t think so. If we did, we would all be saying the same thing.
The Geneva Bible translators, for example, wouldn’t have translated logos as “it” if the translators had understood John to have been speaking about the Son in the prologue.
John was writing in the prologue about the Father’s davar / logos.
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We did that already, lol. You should just go cook some eggs, you won’t get anywhere. His answer will be to say John was talking about a different “word” in vs 14 than the “word” he was talking about in vs. 1. When you look at “new posts” you don’t note that one has taken you into the “unorthodox” forum. These men don’t see Jesus as their Savior like we do. I think they see Him as…a human sacrifice to cover their sin but that’s about it? I don’t know. I didn’t realize until this morning what forum we were in. That in itself feels pretty yucky, like…laying a trap and waiting to see if someone gets tangled in it by chance. They cross land and sea and the internet. And you can’t find any common ground with them because Jesus is your Lord and your God and He isn’t theirs. They are like Israel in that they stumble over the Rock and take offense and seek to…
“cancel” Him. But as hard as it is to wrap your mind around, to speak against Jesus can be be forgiven even though it hurts you to hear it being done since He is your everything and your very life.
“His answer will be to say John was talking about a different “word” in vs 14 than the “word” he was talking about in vs 1.”
Despite the fact that I said unequivocally (in post #342) that it was the same word?
Reading comprehension isn’t the issue. I know you don’t understand me; I don’t believe you read post#342 before you wrote this.
Well that’s not going to fly. You asked me if I read verse 14 back into the prologue and said you don’t read it back to the prologue. I see you’ve amended that now though, and said something, somewhere, about…the “word” being incarnated. And now you say it is the same word used in Vss 1 and 14.
So…in the beginning was the “it?” And the “it” was with God. And the “it” was God. And the “it” was incarnated/made flesh and the “it” made His home among us and the “it” is the Son of God.
You just painted yourself into some sort of corner where first, you say you don’t read it back into Johns “prologue,” then you say it’s the same word as is used in verse 1 so you actually DO read it back to vs 1, which leads to this: in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God and the word was incarnated/became flesh/the Son of God.
So whether you use “word” or “logos” or “it,” verse 14 is still there and verse 14 will still say the Son of God (Jesus) IS that word, logos or it of verse 1.
You can use any word you choose and you still have vs 14. Let’s try the word…”apple.”
In the beginning was the apple, and the apple was with God, and the apple was God. And the apple became flesh. So vs 14 still is that apple.
So it doesn’t matter what word you use, vs 14 is still there and it says Jesus IS that word of your choosing.
In the beginning was the apple, and the apple was with God, and the apple was God. And the apple became flesh. So vs 14 still is that apple.
So it doesn’t matter what word you use, vs 14 is still there and it says Jesus IS that word of your choosing.
I haven’t amended anything. I’ve always said it’s the same word.
Is that what the Geneva Bible says?
He, Jesus, is what the Father’s logos became when it, not he, became incarnate. As I said quite clearly, I connect the incarnation of the word with the begetting, conception and birth of Jesus.
I don’t read the Son back into vs. 1. The Son isn’t in v. 1. John is speaking about the Father and what existed with him - in his mind, in his thought, in his spirit, in his plan and purpose - before the creation of the heavens and the earth. John begins his Gospel by first directing his readers’ attention back to the Genesis creation. His point: the God who created the heavens and the earth (his God and the Messiah’s God) is creating the new creation, which begins with and in Jesus of Nazareth. What had been with the Father from before the Genesis creation, foreknown to him, existing in mind before he spoke it into existence, included the new creation. John’s announcement - what the Father had in mind concerning the new creation, what he had planned and promised, was being brought into existence.
The heavens and the earth didn’t literally exist before the Father brought them into being. They existed notionally with him. Jesus of Nazareth didn’t literally exist before the Father brought him into being. He existed notionally with the Father.
Jesus of Nazareth himself is the beginning of the new creation planned and promised by the Father.
That’s Jewish monotheism.
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After what you said in post #346, why are you still speaking with me? Why are you still posting in this section of the forum?
I’m glad that you are and I’m pleased to have a conversation with you.
As you are someone who doesn’t believe the Holy Spirit is a third person, you belong here. So why does it make you feel “yucky” to be here?
That’s right.
Verse 14 will still say that the Son of God (Jesus) IS that word, logos or it of verse 1 made flesh. The person who existed previously only in the mind of the Father, in his logos, now literally exists.
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The apple existed (preexisted) only in the Father’s logos before the apple literally was brought into existence.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God is a strange way of saying in the beginning God had an idea and the idea was with God and the idea was God and the idea became flesh and dwelt among us. It seems like this is imposing Unitarian theology on a passage that does not support it. There is a saying; torture the data enough and it will confess to anything.
It’s not strange in Jewish thought. What God has planned is with him, in his mind.
When God moves what was only in his mind into actual existence - that’s creation.
“God spoke …” and it came into being. What he spoke already existed in his mind, but only in his mind, before he brought it into being.
Jesus is a unitarian. So is John.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
He existed notionally with the Father is what you change word to now. Okay, let’s try that. Notion or…idea.
1 In the beginning the Notion/idea of Jesus already existed.
The Notion/idea of Jesus was with God,
and the Notion/idea of Jesus was God.
2 The Notion/idea of Jesus existed in the beginning with God.
3 God created everything through the Notion/idea of Jesus
and nothing was created except through the Notion/idea of Jesus.
4 The Notion/idea of Jesus gave life to everything that was created,
and his life brought light to everyone.
5 The light shines in the darkness,
and the darkness can never extinguish it.
6 God sent a man, John the Baptist, 7 to tell about the light/Notion/idea of Jesus so that everyone might believe because of his testimony. 8 John himself was not the light/Notion or idea of Jesus; he was simply a witness to tell about the light/Notion or idea of Jesus, 9 The one who is the true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.
10 The Notion/idea of Jesus came into the very world the Notion/idea of Jesus created, but the world didn’t recognize him. 11 He came to his own people, and even they rejected him. 12 But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God. 13 They are reborn—not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God.
14 So the Notion/idea of Jesus became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son.
15 John testified about him when he shouted to the crowds, “This is the one I was talking about when I said, ‘Someone is coming after me who is far greater than I am, for he existed as a Notion/idea long before I existed as a Notion/idea.’”
Is that right?
1 In the beginning the Notion/idea of Jesus already existed.
The Notion/idea of Jesus was with God,
and the Notion/idea of Jesus was God.
2 The Notion/idea of Jesus existed in the beginning with God.
3 God created everything through the Notion/idea of Jesus
and nothing was created except through the Notion/idea of Jesus.
4 The Notion/idea of Jesus gave life to everything that was created,
and his life brought light to everyone.
5 The light shines in the darkness,
and the darkness can never extinguish it.
6 God sent a man, John the Baptist, 7 to tell about the light/Notion/idea of Jesus so that everyone might believe because of his testimony. 8 John himself was not the light/Notion or idea of Jesus; he was simply a witness to tell about the light/Notion or idea of Jesus, 9 The one who is the true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.
10 The Notion/idea of Jesus came into the very world the Notion/idea of Jesus created, but the world didn’t recognize him. 11 He came to his own people, and even they rejected him. 12 But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God. 13 They are reborn—not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God.
14 So the Notion/idea of Jesus became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son.
15 John testified about him when he shouted to the crowds, “This is the one I was talking about when I said, ‘Someone is coming after me who is far greater than I am, for he existed as a Notion/idea long before I existed as a Notion/idea.’”
Is that right?
It’s documented in Church history.
I did too when I was a trinitarian.
John and Jesus have the same God.
Jesus preexisted only in the mind of his God. A point in time came when his God brought him into existence.
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