Does John 1:1 say Jesus is God
- Thread starter Peterlag
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
- Status
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
I think that depends upon whose version/interpretation of Psalm 45 that
folks prefer.
_
I think that depends upon whose version/interpretation of Psalm 45 that
folks prefer.
_
“These are the circumstances which I had to communicate respecting the formulary of the faith. To it we all agreed, not thoughtlessly, but after mature reflection; and after having subjected it to thorough examination, in the presence of our most beloved emperor, we all, for the above reasons, acquiesced in it. We also willingly submitted to the anathema appended by them to their formulary of faith, because it prohibits the use of words which are not scriptural - for almost all the disorders and troubles of the church have risen from the introduction of such words.”
(Eusebius Pamphilus of Caesarea, “Pastoral Letter To His Diocese” cited by Dean Dudley in History of The First Council of Nice:A World’s Christian Convention A.D. 325, With A Life of Constantine, p. 71)
(Eusebius Pamphilus of Caesarea, “Pastoral Letter To His Diocese” cited by Dean Dudley in History of The First Council of Nice:A World’s Christian Convention A.D. 325, With A Life of Constantine, p. 71)
Taken
Well-Known Member
Debate is predicated on both sides of an issue being set.
I’m not interested in debating. As I’ve said elsewhere, I consider debating to be a lose-lose proposition for the debaters.
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
Demigods are typically a singularity, i.e. a two-part individual. God's
descendant is far more complicated. Instead of two distinct parts, he's two
distinct individuals.
According to Luke 1:35, John 8:58, & 1Cor 15:45-47 Jesus exists as a spirit
being and a material being simultaneously. That's very helpful to know
because some of the things he taught about himself would make no sense at
all if he were only a man.
* The first chapter of the book of Ezekiel portrays a very curious man who, it
turns out, consists of four distinct individuals. If Jesus' duality is difficult to
digest; that man's multi plurality is even worse!
_
Demigods are typically a singularity, i.e. a two-part individual. God's
descendant is far more complicated. Instead of two distinct parts, he's two
distinct individuals.
According to Luke 1:35, John 8:58, & 1Cor 15:45-47 Jesus exists as a spirit
being and a material being simultaneously. That's very helpful to know
because some of the things he taught about himself would make no sense at
all if he were only a man.
* The first chapter of the book of Ezekiel portrays a very curious man who, it
turns out, consists of four distinct individuals. If Jesus' duality is difficult to
digest; that man's multi plurality is even worse!
_
Last edited:
Then let us not say that it would make Jesus a demigod but, rather, let us say that would make Jesus a complicated demigod.
“Jesus is two distinct individuals.” * That’s an eyebrow raiser *
Have you done much reading about the Council of Chalcedon, A.D. 451?
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
It was a Church Council in the 5th century which was convened to discuss several matters; one of the matters being the two natures of Christ. That’s where the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union comes from.
Have you heard of a man named Nestorius of Antioch?
Have you heard of Nestorianism?
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
and on that note , ITS TIME TO PRAISE AND THANK THE GLORIOUS LORD .
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
Nestorius was the archbishop of Constantinople A.D. 428-431. His belief / teaching concerning Jesus is called Nestorianism.
He believed, as you do, that Jesus is two distinct individuals.
I’ve seldom come across anyone who holds that belief.
Thank you for your honesty. I suspect in real life terms, how we judge truth in complex situations that require interpretation and an extended set of ideas and realities, we will always go the way our hearts lay on us. It does not mean we are right in an objective sense, it is the limitation of our existence.
Dealing with Paul as a person, I ask if I met him face to face, what would be his driving force. And the answer is love.
Now love is such a complex powerful thing in all aspects of who we are and how we experience life, my saying this will mean something different to you than to me.
I was asked if I loved a pet dog my daughter had when I was first introduced. I said no, I did not know her, so how could I love her. What they meant was did I appreciate this life and how she appeared. What I meant is did her pain or joy affect me deeply and was I tied into her future. Now after 11 months of spending 3 days a week with her, taking her for walks, yes I love her.
A large part of the fruit of the spirit is this love in all our relationships becoming something real and tangible.
Now I turn this walk into praise of Jesus and the Father as one and also 3, not because it is a theological idea, but it is the expression that makes sense of Jesus and His being eternal and one with the Father. Now if my heart sings and praises and speaks the words the apostles wrote, I can only say, I know what they mean.
C S Lewis in the book the great divorce talked about this life working through people as they walk with Jesus to become more real and being like chaff being blown about. I share this because I realise in the Kingdom it is our clarity with Jesus that brings life eternally.
God bless you
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
It's sometimes asked whether I'm anxious to meet Jesus. Well; I'm not!!! In
point of fact I dread the encounter because there is something about him
that's very different than meeting a normal head of state like US President
Joseph Biden and/or King Charles III of England.
• Rev 1:17 . . And when I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet.
That was John. He and Jesus were BFF and yet . . .
My unsolicited spiritual counseling is that when folks meet up with Jesus:
they should avert their gaze till he invites them to look him in the eye.
• Ex 3:6 . .Then Moses concealed his face, because he was afraid to look at
the true God.
I highly recommend following Moses' lead. Even if folks don't believe Jesus is
divine, it's probably wise for them to go on the assumption he's close
enough to divine that it's okay to approach him as if he is until knowing for
sure that he isn't. With Jesus, it's safer to aim high than low if for no other
purpose than to avoid insulting his Father.
• John 3:22-23 . . For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed
all the judging to the Son, in order that all may honor the Son just as they
honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father
who sent him.
• Dan 7:13-14 . . I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see
there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened
to be coming; nd to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought
him up close even before that One. And to him there were given rulership
and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages
should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership
that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to
ruin.
• Phil 2:10-11 . . In the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in
heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue
should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the
Father.
_
It's sometimes asked whether I'm anxious to meet Jesus. Well; I'm not!!! In
point of fact I dread the encounter because there is something about him
that's very different than meeting a normal head of state like US President
Joseph Biden and/or King Charles III of England.
• Rev 1:17 . . And when I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet.
That was John. He and Jesus were BFF and yet . . .
My unsolicited spiritual counseling is that when folks meet up with Jesus:
they should avert their gaze till he invites them to look him in the eye.
• Ex 3:6 . .Then Moses concealed his face, because he was afraid to look at
the true God.
I highly recommend following Moses' lead. Even if folks don't believe Jesus is
divine, it's probably wise for them to go on the assumption he's close
enough to divine that it's okay to approach him as if he is until knowing for
sure that he isn't. With Jesus, it's safer to aim high than low if for no other
purpose than to avoid insulting his Father.
• John 3:22-23 . . For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed
all the judging to the Son, in order that all may honor the Son just as they
honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father
who sent him.
• Dan 7:13-14 . . I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see
there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened
to be coming; nd to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought
him up close even before that One. And to him there were given rulership
and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages
should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership
that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to
ruin.
• Phil 2:10-11 . . In the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in
heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue
should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the
Father.
_
The pronouns in the Bible that refer to “God” are singular and there are lots of them. “The Hebrew Bible and the New Testament contain well over twenty thousand pronouns and verbs describing the One God” (Anthony Buzzard and Charles Hunting, The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity’s Self-inflicted Wound, International Scholars Publications, New York, 1998, p. 17). Singular pronouns include “I” “my” and “he.” We would expect it to say “For God so loved the world that they gave the Father’s only begotten Son….” if “God” were composed of three co-equal beings who each had their own mind and together agreed to send Christ. The fact that the pronouns in the Bible refer to “God” as a singular being is also evidence that there is no Trinity.
The Old Testament prophecies about the coming Messiah foretold that he would be a human being who would be the offspring of Eve (Genesis 3:15); a descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:3; 18:18; 22:18); a descendant of Judah (Genesis 49:10; a prophet like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15); a son of David (2 Samuel 7:12-13; Isaiah 11:1); a king ruling under Yahweh (Psalm 110:1); and a ruler from among the people of Israel (Jeremiah 30:21). That explains why the people were all expecting a human Messiah. Psalm 110:1 merits special attention because it's especially clear but has been misunderstood and misrepresented by most English versions that read “The LORD says to my Lord….” The word “LORD” is Yahweh, but many Trinitarian commentators argue that “my Lord” in this verse is the Hebrew word "adonai" that is another name for God, and that would provide proof of the divinity of the Messiah. But the Hebrew text does not use "adonai" but rather "adoni" which is always used in Scripture to describe human masters and lords, but never God.
The Old Testament refers to the Messiah as “one like a son of man” and the phrase “son of man” was a Semitic idiom for a human being and it's used that way throughout the Old Testament. The phrase “son of man” also became a title of the Messiah when Daniel referred to him as “one like a son of man” (Daniel 7:13) and that explains why Jesus called himself “the son of man” many times. The use of the “son of man” in reference to the Messiah is one more piece of evidence that Jesus was fully human and one more reason that people were expecting the Messiah to be human. The New Testament teaches Jesus was a man and Jesus himself said he was “a man who has told you the truth” John 8:40. Jesus was not being disingenuous and hiding his “divine nature” but rather was making a factual statement that reinforced what the Jews were expecting of the Messiah—that he would be a fully human man.
The apostles also taught Jesus was a man and we see this when the Apostle Peter spoke in his sermon to the crowds gathered on the Day of Pentecost making a very clear declaration that Jesus was a man approved of God: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you…” (Acts 2:22). Here Peter clearly taught that Jesus was a man and that God did miracles “by him.” Paul also taught Jesus was a man and we can see that when he was in Athens teaching a crowd of unsaved Gentiles about Jesus Christ and said that God would judge the world “by the man whom He has appointed” (Acts 17:31). Paul never said or implied that Jesus was anything but a “man.”
The Old Testament prophecies about the coming Messiah foretold that he would be a human being who would be the offspring of Eve (Genesis 3:15); a descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:3; 18:18; 22:18); a descendant of Judah (Genesis 49:10; a prophet like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15); a son of David (2 Samuel 7:12-13; Isaiah 11:1); a king ruling under Yahweh (Psalm 110:1); and a ruler from among the people of Israel (Jeremiah 30:21). That explains why the people were all expecting a human Messiah. Psalm 110:1 merits special attention because it's especially clear but has been misunderstood and misrepresented by most English versions that read “The LORD says to my Lord….” The word “LORD” is Yahweh, but many Trinitarian commentators argue that “my Lord” in this verse is the Hebrew word "adonai" that is another name for God, and that would provide proof of the divinity of the Messiah. But the Hebrew text does not use "adonai" but rather "adoni" which is always used in Scripture to describe human masters and lords, but never God.
The Old Testament refers to the Messiah as “one like a son of man” and the phrase “son of man” was a Semitic idiom for a human being and it's used that way throughout the Old Testament. The phrase “son of man” also became a title of the Messiah when Daniel referred to him as “one like a son of man” (Daniel 7:13) and that explains why Jesus called himself “the son of man” many times. The use of the “son of man” in reference to the Messiah is one more piece of evidence that Jesus was fully human and one more reason that people were expecting the Messiah to be human. The New Testament teaches Jesus was a man and Jesus himself said he was “a man who has told you the truth” John 8:40. Jesus was not being disingenuous and hiding his “divine nature” but rather was making a factual statement that reinforced what the Jews were expecting of the Messiah—that he would be a fully human man.
The apostles also taught Jesus was a man and we see this when the Apostle Peter spoke in his sermon to the crowds gathered on the Day of Pentecost making a very clear declaration that Jesus was a man approved of God: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you…” (Acts 2:22). Here Peter clearly taught that Jesus was a man and that God did miracles “by him.” Paul also taught Jesus was a man and we can see that when he was in Athens teaching a crowd of unsaved Gentiles about Jesus Christ and said that God would judge the world “by the man whom He has appointed” (Acts 17:31). Paul never said or implied that Jesus was anything but a “man.”
If you’re interested in the history - and for those who are - Today in Christian History tweeted a few minutes ago:
“#OTD October 22, 451
During the Fifth Session of the Council of Chalcedon, the final form of the Chalcedonian Creed was drafted. It became the Early Church’s highest and most enduring ‘definition’ of the person and work of Jesus Christ.”
https://twitter.com/LizBrown217/status/1583909874194268160?s=20&t=AJ-AAtPlj3nehb54CdH8lw
I think it’s interesting (and surprising) that the owner of this forum doesn’t include it in the officially endorsed statement of faith.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
If Chalcedon (known now as Kadikoy, a district of Istanbul, Turkey) doesn’t have a sign welcoming tourists to town then the Chamber of Commerce is asleep at the switch.
Welcome to Chalcedon. Home of the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union.
- Status
Similar threads
