Does John 1:1 say Jesus is God

[Matthias]

A search on the internet pulled up copious amounts of documents on the concept of agency in scripture. As an example, this paper published by Southern Adventist University:

“Teaching the Gospel from Agency Theory in the Bible” written by Michael E. Cafferky.

https://knowledge.e.southern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1038&context=facworks_bus

It’s a commonly recognized and acknowledged biblical concept. Sources can be found from a wide range of trinitarian (to say nothing of non-trinitarian) institutions and commentaries.

It’s a commonplace Jewish way of thinking. I think it’s reasonable to use a common Jewish manner of thinking to understand Jewish writings.

 

[Matthias]

From Bible Hub. Topical Bible, entry on “Agency”.

Topical Bible: Agency

 

[Matthias]

“The Law was given by the agency of a mediator.”

Galatians 3:19-22

OT.

The agency of a mediator?

*Thinking NT now. Thinking Jesus, the new Moses, now *

 

[marks]

God made Moses God to Pharaoh. Every time Moses speaks to Pharaoh, Pharaoh is seeing and hearing God in Moses.



That’s what agency is. That’s what agency looks and sounds like.

Now let's go back to the beginning.

YHWH ate with Abraham. Your assertion is that it wasn't really YHWH, because no one can see God and live. Am I right?

So I'm asking for another example, that shows by context that this is what is happening. If we're talking comparable to this example, it would be a place that says YHWH came to someone, and in other place it tells us it was actually Gabriel, or David, or whomever.

Not just that shows the delegation of position.

If there is such a place, we should look at it, and see if it gives us reason to not just accept the plain saying in this place.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Moses is a type of Jesus. Do you believe that?

As is Adam. Yes. But each also retain their own identity. Right? And in Scripture, they are identified by their own identity?

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

Now let's go back to the beginning.

YHWH ate with Abraham. Your assertion is that it wasn't really YHWH, because no one can see God and live. Am I right?

It wasn’t YHWH. YHWH is the God of Jesus and Abraham.

It was an angel acting as YHWH’ agent / representative.

So I'm asking for another example, that shows by context that this is what is happening. If we're talking comparable to this example, it would be a place that says YHWH came to someone, and in other place it tells us it was actually Gabriel, or David, or whomever.

Not just that shows the delegation of position.

If there is such a place, we should look at it, and see if it gives us reason to not just accept the plain saying in this place.

Much love!

I’m absolutely deluging this thread with information, primarily from trinitarian sources, on the concept of agency in scripture.

 

[Matthias]

“Jesus as the New Moses in Matthew” by Ian W. Scott (Tyndale Seminary)

Jesus as the New Moses in Matthew

 

[marks]

“The Law was given by the agency of a mediator.”

Galatians 3:19-22

OT.

The agency of a mediator?

*Thinking NT now. Thinking Jesus, the new Moses, now *

Jesus isn't the new Moses. Moses is still Moses. Moses was a type of Jesus, that is, in Moses' life, his own individual life, were foreshadowings of Jesus.

The Law was given by agency of a mediator, yes, very true, and this entire process is very well established in the Scripture.

It reminds me of the Revelation, God gave a revelation to Jesus, Who gave it to an angel, who gave it to John. All clearly specified. No conjecture, no wondering, no searching for even one passage that solves the enigma of who is actually speaking. We know who. The text is clear.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

Jesus isn't the new Moses. Moses is still Moses. Moses was a type of Jesus, that is, in Moses' life, his own individual life, were foreshadowings of Jesus.

The Law was given by agency of a mediator, yes, very true, and this entire process is very well established in the Scripture.

It reminds me of the Revelation, God gave a revelation to Jesus, Who gave it to an angel, who gave it to John. All clearly specified. No conjecture, no wondering, no searching for even one passage that solves the enigma of who is actually speaking. We know who. The text is clear.

Much love!

You don’t have to believe Jesus is the new Moses. I believe he is. Tons of trinitarian scholars believe he is.

You aren’t going to be persuaded by me. You aren’t going to be persuaded by them.

Agency is such a common concept in scripture that I find it astonishing that anyone is able to read scripture and not see it.

 

[marks]

It wasn’t YHWH. YHWH is the God of Jesus and Abraham.

Genesis 18:1
And YHWH appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day

Genesis 18:8-14 KJV
8) And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
9) And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
10) And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
11) Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
12) Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
13) And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
14) Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

Abraham gave food to YHWH and 2 angels, and spoke together with YHWH, as they were together there under the oak tree.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Agency is such a common concept in scripture that I find it astonishing that anyone is able to read scripture and not see it.

Of course some act as agents for others, only, that doesn't mean we negate the plain sayings of Scripture as if that gives us permission to do so.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

“God gave a revelation to Jesus” is NOT God gave a revelation to God.

 

[Matthias]

Of course some act as agents for others, only, that doesn't mean we negate the plain sayings of Scripture as if that gives us permission to do so.

Much love!

Moses acted as an agent of YHWH. So does Jesus.

 

[marks]

Agency is such a common concept in scripture that I find it astonishing that anyone is able to read scripture and not see it.

And it is specified in Scripture, so we can know with Biblical authority. But that doesn't change the readings of propositional and narrative statements.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Moses acted as an agent of YHWH. So does Jesus.

But it doesn't mean that when it says YHWH met with Abraham under the oak tree, that it is not actually so.

Much love!

Gotta run! Have a good night!

 

[Matthias]

Genesis 18:1
And YHWH appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day

Genesis 18:8-14 KJV
8) And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
9) And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
10) And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
11) Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
12) Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
13) And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
14) Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

Abraham gave food to YHWH and 2 angels, and spoke together with YHWH, as they were together there under the oak tree.

Much love!

Even a trinitarian who believes this is a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus should be able to see that this is an example of the concept of agency. Trinitarian commentary is filled with this reasoning.

 

[Matthias]

But it doesn't mean that when it says YHWH met with Abraham under the oak tree, that it is not actually so.

Much love!

Gotta run! Have a good night!

YHWH (Adonai) is the God and Father of Jesus (adoni.

It was neither YHWH nor Jesus who met with Abraham under the oak tree. It was, however, someone who is adoni.

 

[Matthias]

And it is specified in Scripture, so we can know with Biblical authority. But that doesn't change the readings of propositional and narrative statements.

Much love!

Scripture is dripping with it. All we have to do in order to see it is read scripture with the concept of agency in mind.

 

[Matthias]

Of course some act as agents for others, only, that doesn't mean we negate the plain sayings of Scripture as if that gives us permission to do so.

Much love!

Jesus is the prophet like Moses whom YHWH said he would raise up from among the people. YHWH would put his words in that prophet’s mouth to speak.

Jesus, the prophet like Moses, said that the words he spoke weren’t his own. They were the words which YHWH - the God and Father of Jesus - put in his mouth to speak.

Jesus himself is the supreme example of the concept of agency in scripture.

 

[Matthias]

The same event is described in Matthew 20:20-28 and Mark 10:35-45.

Is this a contradiction in scripture? No.

So who made the request? Was it the mother of James and John, as Matthew writes? Or was it James and John themselves, as Mark writes?

It was the mother of James and John, not James and John themselves, who made the request. She was standing in their place, acting as their agent / representative.

It was James and John, via the agency / representation of their mother in their place.

When she stood before Jesus and made the request, it was as if John and James themselves were standing before Jesus and making the request.

This is another example of the concept of agency in scripture.