Does John 1:1 say Jesus is God

[marks]

I’ll provide you with several example, if that’s what you need.

Thank you!

Before I do I’d like to ask, have you ever done a Google search for the law of / principle of agency in scripture?

Just looking for some verses is all. If you don't mind, please post the passages, and bold the place that shows this, or something like that. I'm hoping for more than just a list of verse references. But it's up to you of course!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Adam is listed in his genealogy (Luke 3:23-38). Adam is an ancestor of Jesus.

It should go without saying that Yahweh doesn’t have any ancestors. The point is that Jesus isn’t Yahweh.

There is no God besides Yahweh. Yahweh is Jesus’ God and Father.

Adam was sinless because he didn’t sin. Adam didn’t remain sinless, because he sinned.

Jesus was sinless because he didn’t sin. Jesus remained sinless, because he didn’t sin.

Why didn't Jesus sin? There is no one who does not sin. All fall short of God's glory. Again . . . ALL fall short of God's glory. Why does Jesus not fall short of God's glory? All fall short of God's glory. Not Jesus. What does logic tell us? How is it that both things are true?

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

Why didn't Jesus sin?

Jesus didn’t sin because he was perfectly obedient to his God.

There is no one who does not sin. All fall short of God's glory.

There are exceptions. Adam was an exception, for some period of time. Jesus is an exception, from the beginning of his life.

Again . . . ALL fall short of God's glory. Why does Jesus not fall short of God's glory? All fall short of God's glory. Not Jesus. What does logic tell us? How is it that both things are true?

Much love!

Logic tells me that Jesus is a sinless human person.

 

[Wrangler]

Just looking for some verses is all.

Really? I’m sure you know your Bible better than that! An angel guarded the Tree of Life.

God sent Moses to Pharaoh, along with flies, toads.

A spirit was sent by God to deceive Ahab’s 400 false prophets.

He sent Jeremiah to Anoint David, Angels to proclaim the coming of the Baptist and the Messiah.

David sent Uriah to battle. Jesus sent the Apostles 2 at a time. One pair procured the donkey he wrote on to Jerusalem in triumph. An angel announced Jesus tomb was empty.

Paul sent Timothy. Herod’s wife had her daughter do her bidding. Laban use Israel as an agent to marry off both daughters and their maidservants.

And I’m sure I could think of a lot more if I spent just a few minutes … like Samson using his parents as an agent to arrange his marriage. Agency is all over Scripture.

 

[Matthias]

Thank you!



Just looking for some verses is all. If you don't mind, please post the passages, and bold the place that shows this, or something like that. I'm hoping for more than just a list of verse references. But it's up to you of course!

Much love!

Moses is the classic, but certainly not the only, OT example. God made him [as] God to Pharaoh.

I’m giving you here a link to an entire document devoted to the subject, complete with multiple examples from scripture - OT and NT.

“‘Shaliah’: An Introduction to the Law of Agency” written by Raymond James Essoe.

http://www.christianmonotheism.com/media/text/Raymond Essoe -- Shaliah.pdf

 

[Matthias]

@marks I’m confident that you believe this statement made by Jesus: “For all all things are possible with God” (Mark 10:27).

I’m taking it out of context here (always a dangerous thing to do) to ask you this: Isn’t it possible that the God whom Jesus was speaking about acts through the law, or principle, of agency in dealing with his creatures?

If the answer is yes, it’s possible, then you should be able to acknowledge that my position may have a basis in scripture, and does, IF examples of agency can be documented in scripture.

Isn’t that why you asked me for some examples from scripture?

 

[Matthias]

@marks we’re discussing human beings and sin, but there is a related issue: angels. Do you believe that there are angels who have never sinned? Do you believe there are angels who have sinned?

If so, how can angels be sinless?

 

[Webers_Home]

Jesus was sinless because . . . .

Jesus enjoyed a huge advantage over rank and file pew warmers. Perfection
is just as natural to him as imperfection is to everybody else.

• Luke 1: 35 . .The angel said to her: Holy spirit will come upon you, and
power of the Most High will overshadow you. For that reason also what is
born will be called holy, God’s son.

• 1John 3:9 . . Everyone who has been born from God does not carry on sin,
because His reproductive seed remains in such one, and he cannot practice
sin, because he has been born from God.

In other words: by coming into the world as God's descendant, Jesus came a
chip off the olde block (so to speak).
_

 

[marks]

Moses is the classic, but certainly not the only, OT example. God made him [as] God to Pharaoh.

Can you quote the passage for me, and show where Moses is called God as Moses speaks to Pharaoh?

We're talking about one person being named as the one acting, when it's actually a different one acting? Like, "God said to Pharaoh, 'let my people go", as Moses was talking? Like that?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I’m taking it out of context here (always a dangerous thing to do) to ask you this: Isn’t it possible that the God whom Jesus was speaking about acts through the law, or principle, of agency in dealing with his creatures?

Any thing is possible. But does that mean it happened?

I go by what I see in the Bible.

Were you going to post any passages which demonstrate this? I'm not really into perusing web sites, more just interested in what you may want to share.

Much love!

 

[marks]

@marks we’re discussing human beings and sin, but there is a related issue: angels. Do you believe that there are angels who have never sinned? Do you believe there are angels who have sinned?

If so, how can angels be sinless?

I'm more interested in how you'd answer my question about Jesus before getting onto a different topic.

Much love!

 

[WalkInLight]

What I can agree with in your post is that it comes down to Jesus.

He tells us precisely who his God and the God of his disciples is. The Trinity isn’t that God; the Father is.

My position is that the God of Jesus is the one and only true God; that there is no God besides his God.

You sound like Saul before he became Paul.
If you listen to Paul and feel his heart, love is the transforming issue in his life.
The trinity has always been something that is a consequence of an encounter with Jesus not because it makes sense, which it does not, or is anything other than the mystery of the creator. We do not know what eternal means, we only know created existence.

Jesus spoke about who He was to His disciples and it is this one to one relationship which is reflected in the gospels. Facts are almost in the back seat, it is the emotional relationship impact that matters. Jesus wept for Lazarus because he loved him and his sisters, even though he was going to raise Lazarus from the dead. Death in a sense was never the issue, it was this break between the Lord and man, the aloneness and separateness that makes sin so appealing, to get that which is not rightfully ours, because we are not happy with what we have, because in the end we need to be valued. Ironically this value is in the eyes of other men, who will destroy us as much as blink.

What shows Jesus and the Father are one, because 3 years after beginning Jesus died. It was enough to make contact, to teach and lay out salvation and for the apostles to know eternity, the Kingdom of heaven come down to earth, but not enough to indulge, or over do it. Stephen saw it so clearly he got angry with the pharisees, because who the Father is was clear as day, but they literally did not care. Trying to play it safe was just a farce, so he let it rip, and they stoned him to death. One way to get to be with Jesus extra quickly.

I hope this warms you heart, because it does mine.

God bless you

 

[Matthias]

Can you quote the passage for me, and show where Moses is called God as Moses speaks to Pharaoh?

We're talking about one person being named as the one acting, when it's actually a different one acting? Like, "God said to Pharaoh, 'let my people go", as Moses was talking? Like that?

Much love!

“Then the LORD said to Moses, ‘See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.’”

(Exodus 7:1, NASB)

“And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharao: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.”

(Douala-Rheims)

“And the LORD said unto Moses: ‘See, I have set thee in God’s stead to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.’”

(JPS)

“And the LORD said to Moses, ‘See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.’”

(ESV)

 

[Matthias]

Any thing is possible. But does that mean it happened?

No. Just because it’s possible doesn’t in and of itself mean that it happened.

My first goal was to see if we could agree that it is possible. If it isn’t possible then there’s no value in pursuing it.

I go by what I see in the Bible.

So do I. What I see in the Bible are many examples of agency. Trinitarian scholars see it too.

Were you going to post any passages which demonstrate this? I'm not really into perusing web sites, more just interested in what you may want to share.

Much love!

I linked a paper which contains many such passages for you. I did this because you commented earlier that you would rather not see just a list of verses.

 

[marks]

“Then the LORD said to Moses, ‘See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.’”

(Exodus 7:1, NASB)

“And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharao: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.”

(Douala-Rheims)

“And the LORD said unto Moses: ‘See, I have set thee in God’s stead to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.’”

(JPS)

“And the LORD said to Moses, ‘See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.’”

(ESV)

God delegates to Moses, but where in the Bible is Moses speaking to Pharaoh, and it says, "God spoke to Pharaoh"? That would be an example of what we are talking about.

God gives Moses His instructions, but then the Bible continues to speak of Moses as being the acting, even having been sent by God.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

@marks we’re discussing human beings and sin, but there is a related issue: angels. Do you believe that there are angels who have never sinned? Do you believe there are angels who have sinned?

If so, how can angels be sinless?

The same way man could have.

 

[marks]

I linked a paper which contains many such passages for you. I did this because you commented earlier that you would rather not see just a list of verses.

I took a glance over it, I didn't see any passages that demonstrate one person being named when another person is talking. I said, not a list of references, I want to see the actual verses.

Quote the passage. Not just that God sent Moses to be "god" to Pharaoh, but where Moses speaks to Pharaoh, and the Bible tell us God is speaking, for instance. Where the context and the content show without question that this is what is happening.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

God delegates to Moses, but where in the Bible is Moses speaking to Pharaoh, and it says, "God spoke to Pharaoh"? That would be an example of what we are talking about.

God made Moses God to Pharaoh. Every time Moses speaks to Pharaoh, Pharaoh is seeing and hearing God in Moses.

God gives Moses His instructions, but then the Bible continues to speak of Moses as being the acting, even having been sent by God.

Much love!

That’s what agency is. That’s what agency looks and sounds like.

 

[Matthias]

I took a glance over it, I didn't see any passages that demonstrate one person being named when another person is talking. I said, not a list of references, I want to see the actual verses.

Quote the passage. Not just that God sent Moses to be "god" to Pharaoh, but where Moses speaks to Pharaoh, and the Bible tell us God is speaking, for instance. Where the context and the content show without question that this is what is happening.

Much love!

Moses is a type of Jesus. Do you believe that?

 

[Matthias]

You sound like Saul before he became Paul.
If you listen to Paul and feel his heart, love is the transforming issue in his life.
The trinity has always been something that is a consequence of an encounter with Jesus not because it makes sense, which it does not, or is anything other than the mystery of the creator. We do not know what eternal means, we only know created existence.

Jesus spoke about who He was to His disciples and it is this one to one relationship which is reflected in the gospels. Facts are almost in the back seat, it is the emotional relationship impact that matters. Jesus wept for Lazarus because he loved him and his sisters, even though he was going to raise Lazarus from the dead. Death in a sense was never the issue, it was this break between the Lord and man, the aloneness and separateness that makes sin so appealing, to get that which is not rightfully ours, because we are not happy with what we have, because in the end we need to be valued. Ironically this value is in the eyes of other men, who will destroy us as much as blink.

What shows Jesus and the Father are one, because 3 years after beginning Jesus died. It was enough to make contact, to teach and lay out salvation and for the apostles to know eternity, the Kingdom of heaven come down to earth, but not enough to indulge, or over do it. Stephen saw it so clearly he got angry with the pharisees, because who the Father is was clear as day, but they literally did not care. Trying to play it safe was just a farce, so he let it rip, and they stoned him to death. One way to get to be with Jesus extra quickly.

I hope this warms you heart, because it does mine.

God bless you

Thanks. No, it didn’t warm my heart. When you said I sound like Saul before he became Paul it chilled my heart.

The positive for me is that Saul / Paul is a Jewish monotheist and, as such, agency is commonplace in his thinking.