Difficulty Reconciling

[quietthinker]

Intellectual quick stepping gets nowhere......except probably a flattered ego!

 

[GracePeace]

Your dilemma GP, arises because of where you focus is. Nevertheless, you are brave enough to admit there is a dilemma. Continue to be brave and self honest.

Lip service and intellectual assent does not qualify as believing. Believing is a complete (cognitive and emotion) investment in the values of the Kingdom of God. Not only is it cognitive it involves emotion....ie, e-motion = energy in motion.....it does, not just thinks.

Being in love is more than a cognitive exercise.....it involves the emotion.
Believing is being captured with the wonder of God's condescension and responding accordingly.

Perhaps you may conclude I haven't addressed/ answered your difficulty? I have in fact, addressed the very core of it.

It seems like you are denying "faith alone", and saying that, when John speaks about "faith", he, definitionally, includes, in that, also, walking in a way in keeping with that faith, and he never meant to be understood as teaching "faith alone" for eternal life?

 

[quietthinker]

It seems like you are denying "faith alone", and saying that, when John speaks about "faith", he, definitionally, includes, in that, also, walking in a way in keeping with that faith, and he never meant to be understood as teaching "faith alone" for eternal life?

You're in danger of doing a head job on yourself GP

 

[GracePeace]

You're in danger of doing a head job on yourself GP

I am not sure what your view is.

 

[Wick Stick]

On one hand, it seems like all we need to do to have eternal life is to believe in Jesus.

On the other hand, it seems like mere belief is not enough, but, at bare minimum, one must deny oneself/not indulge in sin to the point of confessing faith in Christ (by adding "confession" to "faith", the "faith" required cannot be defined as "faith alone", but "faith... plus...")....

What does it mean to "believe in Jesus?"

Is it believing Jesus existed? It seems to be more.
Is it believing Jesus was the Jews' Messiah? It seems to be more.
Is it believing in Jesus' divinity? It still seems to be more.

I think that it's believing Jesus' teachings. And if someone believes those teachings, wouldn't they do them? Or at least try to do them?

Your questions started in the book of John. John's gospel begins with "In the beginning was the Word... and the Word became flesh..." I read that to say that John doesn't put a difference between Jesus, and Jesus' message. He is that Message... but made flesh.

Or that's how I reconcile it anyway.

 

[face2face]

You just agreed with my "take" on James 2, but now you're disagreeing?

The conclusion that faith without works is dead speaks to how life can be attained in Christ who showed those works by his faith.
Paul, James and Christ all agree...it all depends upon what angle you approach the subject.
F2F

 

[GracePeace]

The conclusion that faith without works is dead speaks to how life can be attained in Christ who showed those works by his faith.
Paul, James and Christ all agree...it all depends upon what angle you approach the subject.
F2F

The angle I'm approaching it by is outlined in the OP where I shared many passages I had difficulty reconciling.

 

[face2face]

It's both!

On one hand, it seems like all we need to do to have eternal life is to believe in Jesus.

On the other hand, it seems like mere belief is not enough, but, at bare minimum, one must deny oneself/not indulge in sin to the point of confessing faith in Christ (by adding "confession" to "faith", the "faith" required cannot be defined as "faith alone", but "faith... plus...")....

Correct...F2F

 

[GracePeace]

What does it mean to "believe in Jesus?"

Is it believing Jesus existed? It seems to be more.
Is it believing Jesus was the Jews' Messiah? It seems to be more.
Is it believing in Jesus' divinity? It still seems to be more.

I think that it's believing Jesus' teachings. And if someone believes those teachings, wouldn't they do them? Or at least try to do them?

Your questions started in the book of John. John's gospel begins with "In the beginning was the Word... and the Word became flesh..." I read that to say that John doesn't put a difference between Jesus, and Jesus' message. He is that Message... but made flesh.

Or that's how I reconcile it anyway.

So, would you say that to abide in Him would be to take His Word in, and arrange yourself accordingly, beginning with accounting ourselves as He says (eg i have peace bc of God's mercy, not my goodness procen by my works, through Jesus), and proceeding to planning to live as He lived/commands us ("eat My flesh and drink My blood"... "as I was sent so I am sending you")?

 

[GracePeace]

It's both!

On one hand, it seems like all we need to do to have eternal life is to believe in Jesus.

On the other hand, it seems like mere belief is not enough, but, at bare minimum, one must deny oneself/not indulge in sin to the point of confessing faith in Christ (by adding "confession" to "faith", the "faith" required cannot be defined as "faith alone", but "faith... plus...")....

Correct...F2F

I kind of agree, but if we rely on our good deeds, isn't that not relying on what He already did for us?

You can't lean to the Left and lean to the right at the same time can you?

 

[face2face]

For the thief it was merely his confession of faith which qualified him for life. His circumstances demanded it! His faith was tested and found worthy of Christ whereas the other not so.

Others will have a life of testing before they qualify

F2F

 

[Brakelite]

The demons believe and shudder. There is believing that something is true, and there is believing in a commitment to that truth. The demons believed Jesus is the Son of God, the Holy One. But that kind of believing doesn't save.

What verse in particular are we talking about? Would you post the one?

Much love!

Our relationship with Jesus may not be affected by our behaviour, but it is certainly affected by our faith. If we believe or behaviour ism forgivable, then our faith or belief is askew. If we sin, and don't confess, believing we won't be forgiven, or that God had ceased t to love us, then we are judging our relationship based on works... in this case, bad works, and our faith fails ius. The just shall live by his faith. TBA am ongoing relational trust in Gods mercy that remains constant, even while we Susan's feeling stink because we have sinned. But our faith should remain strong because God's love was proven at Calvary.
The question we need to all ourselves is what is our faith for? What are believing God will do? Must give us eternal life? Salvation? Is that as far as our faith can extend to? Why did Jesus come? To save His people from their sin. He came to set us free. From our sin natures, from the power of sin over us, from its bondage, from its instigator, Satan. How does Jesus do that? By instilling in each born again child of God a Seed. A  Seed that grows and bears fruit. Fruits of righteousness, fruits of the Spirit, fruits of good works, fruits of obedience to His commandments. That, @GracePeace is how you reconcile scripture.

“And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her Seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. ”
Genesis 3:15 KJV

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“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. ”
Galatians 3:16 KJV

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“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. ”
Revelation 12:17 KJV

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“To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: ”
Colossians 1:27 KJV

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[GracePeace]

What does it mean to "believe in Jesus?"

Is it believing Jesus existed? It seems to be more.
Is it believing Jesus was the Jews' Messiah? It seems to be more.
Is it believing in Jesus' divinity? It still seems to be more.

I think that it's believing Jesus' teachings. And if someone believes those teachings, wouldn't they do them? Or at least try to do them?

Your questions started in the book of John. John's gospel begins with "In the beginning was the Word... and the Word became flesh..." I read that to say that John doesn't put a difference between Jesus, and Jesus' message. He is that Message... but made flesh.

Or that's how I reconcile it anyway.

Your thinking is similar to my own. I live in Flagstaff, just north of you.

 

[quietthinker]

It's both!

On one hand, it seems like all we need to do to have eternal life is to believe in Jesus.

On the other hand, it seems like mere belief is not enough, but, at bare minimum, one must deny oneself/not indulge in sin to the point of confessing faith in Christ (by adding "confession" to "faith", the "faith" required cannot be defined as "faith alone", but "faith... plus...")....

Correct...F2F

ahhh, 'one the one hand',.... 'on the other hand'.....confusion is evident!

 

[face2face]

I kind of agree, but if we rely on our good deeds, isn't that not relying on what He already did for us?

You mean faith, right? a working faith?

You can't lean to the Left and lean to the right at the same time can you?

It's not about leaning, its about doing the Words of Eternal Life - living as Christ.

Theres an old song which puts it well:

Brother, sister, let me serve you; let me be as Christ to you; pray that I may have the grace to let you be my servant too.

Perfect!

 

[GracePeace]

For the thief it was merely his confession of faith which qualified him for life. His circumstances demanded it! His faith was tested and found worthy of Christ whereas the other not so.

Others will have a life of testing before they qualify

F2F

That's how I think.

John said many leaders believed, but, bc they loved sin, they wouldn't confess. The thief who believed didn't just believe, but also confessed. This means it's not faith alone right?

 

[face2face]

ahhh, 'one the one hand',.... 'on the other hand'.....confusion is evident!

Some try to pigeon hole the Grace of God - are you one of those? Is God confined to how He saves?
F2F

 

[face2face]

That's how I think.

John said many leaders believed, but, bc they loved sin, they wouldn't confess. The thiefwh believed didn't just believe but also confessed. This means it's not faith alone right?

Correct. His confession was an act of faith whereas the other condemned himself!

 

[quietthinker]

Some try to pigeon hole the Grace of God - are you one of those? Is God confined to how He saves?
F2F

Is God subject to man's subjectivity?

 

[GracePeace]

You mean faith, right? a working faith?

It's not about leaning, its about doing the Words of Eternal Life - living as Christ.

Theres an old song which puts it well:

Brother, sister, let me serve you; let me be as Christ to you; pray that I may have the grace to let you be my servant too.

Perfect!

In principle, or "on paper", I agree, but I was told I was trying to pay God for my sins with my good deeds, so maybe there is something about my intention that is awry, in disagreement with what I think I agree with "on paper".