Daniel Chapter 2

[Marty fox]

In all fairness this thread is about Daniel 2 and not chapter 9.

The 70th week is the Messiah the Prince.

Jesus was the Messiah, and will be the Prince to come. If you cannot see Jesus as both Christ and King (Messiah and Prince), not sure what else can be said?

If Jesus was not on the earth as Messiah roughly 3.5 years, and never returns as Prince for the last 3.5 years, only then will you have a point.

Your point that the 62 weeks precedes the 7 weeks is an odd view. We can see in Ezra and Nehemiah the 7 weeks preceded the last 62. Do you have an English translation that places the 62 prior to the 7? Many people use 69 and that is not even found in any English translation that I am aware of. It is just adding 7+62 as a private interpretation.

Paul said that Jesus was the 2nd Adam and was obedient where all other humans failed. Not sure why Paul needed to point that out specifically about Daniel. You also have to understand that Paul was a Pharisee. Most of religious Jews do not accept Daniel as part of the OT Canon. I don't think any in the first century were ever expecting any of Daniel to be fulfilled nor make sense. Only Anna and Simeon seemed to understand who Jesus was without being told by Jesus. Jesus had to referesh the understanding of His generation that He was fulfilling prophecy.

I never said that Jesus wasn’t the messiah of course He was and sorry but I have no idea why you’re mentioning Paul

FYI Messiah wasn’t in the original translation it’s actually the anointed one

Read the text again

25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,[f]the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.[

The anointed ones comes after seven sevens and sixty two sevens

After sixty two sevens the anointed one is cut off

How can the anointed one be cut off seven sevens before he comes? He can’t thus it has to be two anointed ones

 

[CTK]

I never said that Jesus wasn’t the messiah of course He was and sorry but I have no idea why you’re mentioning Paul

FYI Messiah wasn’t in the original translation it’s actually the anointed one

Read the text again

25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,[f]the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.[

The anointed ones comes after seven sevens and sixty two sevens

After sixty two sevens the anointed one is cut off

How can the anointed one be cut off seven sevens before he comes? He can’t thus it has to be two anointed ones

Marty, He doesn’t! His arrival is found in the “restorative” verse; He will come AFTER 7 and 62 weeks. This of course means, there is only one week remaining in the 70 weeks prophecy. He will arrive on the first day of the 70th week to begin His ministry. This is the same day He will be baptize by John AND anointed by His Father. So He arrives Day #1 of the last week (week 70).

Then, Gabriel will give Daniel a prophecy that is recorded in the “destructive” verse. Now he tells Daniel the Messiah will be cut off AFTER the completion of the 62 weeks. Obviously, he does not have to repeat the first 7 weeks, since they had already come and were completed before the start of the 62 week section. And this of course places His death ALSO IN the 70th week. Gabriel will then tell Daniel the Messiah will be “cut off” IN THE MIDST OF THE WEEK. Meaning, Jesus will be crucified exactly 3.5 years INTO THE 7 last years of the prophecy.

This, to me, is so clear and it is exactly what took place!

 

[Marty fox]

Marty, He doesn’t! His arrival is found in the “restorative” verse; He will come AFTER 7 and 62 weeks. This of course means, there is only one week remaining in the 70 weeks prophecy. He will arrive on the first day of the 70th week to begin His ministry. This is the same day He will be baptize by John AND anointed by His Father. So He arrives Day #1 of the last week (week 70).

Then, Gabriel will give Daniel a prophecy that is recorded in the “destructive” verse. Now he tells Daniel the Messiah will be cut off AFTER the completion of the 62 weeks. Obviously, he does not have to repeat the first 7 weeks, since they had already come and were completed before the start of the 62 week section. And this of course places His death ALSO IN the 70th week. Gabriel will then tell Daniel the Messiah will be “cut off” IN THE MIDST OF THE WEEK. Meaning, Jesus will be crucified exactly 3.5 years INTO THE 7 last years of the prophecy.

This, to me, is so clear and it is exactly what took place!

That doesn’t make any sense why would they write it that way and cause confusement?

How do you fit the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple into the 70 weeks since it happened so long after the cross? There is no break mentioned in the 70th week

 

[CTK]

That doesn’t make any sense why would they write it that way and cause confusement?

How do you fit the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple into the 70 weeks since it happened so long after the cross? There is no break mentioned in the 70th week

Thanks Marty. First, I am not a student of Hebrew language AT ALL, but it is not written like our English language. Second, Daniel maybe written in an “apocalyptic” style, and third, one can easily see the many translations that are out there … they can say very different things. And one other important thing to consider - you will find, not only in Daniel, but throughout the Scriptures, the often use of writing in a “Chiastic” structure. This is unlike anything we have today.

Your second comment above regarding the destruction of the Temple and the city in 70 AD… As I briefly mentioned, within the 4 verses (9:24-27), there are 2 “restorative” verses (24-25) which reveal the restoration of everything that was either destroyed or taken away by the Babylonians (Temple, walls, streets, people, etc.).

But in the 2 “destructive” verses (26-27), you will find those verses speak of the destruction of those same elements that were restored. The literal destruction of the Jews and the city and Temple were prophesied in these verses but they were not physically destroyed WITHIN the 490 year prophecy.

 

[Timtofly]

I still don't know what you are telling me about verses 41-43. Can you start by telling me who the symbols refer to, what time period is being discussed, please take one verse at a time and unpack it and explain what it means. It is not easy by no means, but it is very specific.

If you are asking what the iron and clay means, it says right there in the text.

"so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken"

This is the 5th kingdom after Rome stopped being a power in the west. Rome still had an eastern leg, so that means the toes were western nations including Rome in the east.

Historically that ten toe period would be from the 5th to 16th centuries. The Reformation was when this image stopped being relevant.

Verses: 34-35

"Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth."

Explanation:

"it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

The stone was Jesus Christ. The mountain is the church.

Now you want to know about verse 41. The feet and toes are not Rome. This 5th kingdom was broken and splintered.

I am not sure why you need to be specific about the past? Having such knowledge will not change the present nor the future. None of Daniel 2 was of any use past the Reformation. I would say 99.9 percent of Daniel is in the past. The only items left are the dead being judged, and Jesus coming to earth as the Prince of Daniel 9.

You do not seem to want to match up history with Daniel, nor that Daniel is about the future. Daniel was talking about planet earth, and not events on a different planet.

 

[CTK]

If you are asking what the iron and clay means, it says right there in the text.

"so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken"

This is the 5th kingdom after Rome stopped being a power in the west. Rome still had an eastern leg, so that means the toes were western nations including Rome in the east.

Historically that ten toe period would be from the 5th to 16th centuries. The Reformation was when this image stopped being relevant.

Verses: 34-35

"Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth."

Explanation:

"it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

The stone was Jesus Christ. The mountain is the church.

Now you want to know about verse 41. The feet and toes are not Rome. This 5th kingdom was broken and splintered.

I am not sure why you need to be specific about the past? Having such knowledge will not change the present nor the future. None of Daniel 2 was of any use past the Reformation. I would say 99.9 percent of Daniel is in the past. The only items left are the dead being judged, and Jesus coming to earth as the Prince of Daniel 9.

You do not seem to want to match up history with Daniel, nor that Daniel is about the future. Daniel was talking about planet earth, and not events on a different planet.

Ok and thanks.

 

[Timtofly]

I never said that Jesus wasn’t the messiah of course He was and sorry but I have no idea why you’re mentioning Paul

FYI Messiah wasn’t in the original translation it’s actually the anointed one

Read the text again

25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,[f]the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.[

The anointed ones comes after seven sevens and sixty two sevens

After sixty two sevens the anointed one is cut off

How can the anointed one be cut off seven sevens before he comes? He can’t thus it has to be two anointed ones

Christ means anointed.

Messiah means anointed.

Anointed means anointed.

Jesus was cutoff after 69 weeks. Jesus left earth in the middle of the 70th week. Because Jesus came as the anointed one for 3.5 years. Jesus will return as ruler=Prince=King for the last 3.5 years of the 70th week. The 70th week was cut off, as Jesus never sat on the throne of David in Jerusalem over Israel.

The first 49 years (7 weeks) happened before the last 434 years (62 weeks).

 

[CTK]

Ok and thanks.

If you do not mind, why do you find there is a 5th kingdom? Does that agree with Chapter 7 and 8?

Thanks.

 

[Timtofly]

If you do not mind, why do you find there is a 5th kingdom? Does that agree with Chapter 7 and 8?

Thanks.

Would you even agree with the historical record concerning the Roman Empire?

It can be argued that the 69 weeks of Daniel 9 were over when the 4th kingdom replaced the 3rd kingdom of Greece. Rome was never mentioned by name in Daniel.

Which is certainly interesting considering that historically the Roman Republic was established and flourishing from 509 to 27 BC. It was a city state well known along side of Greece, which was never that big of an empire to begin with itself.

The Roman Empire was not even divided until the 4th century AD, and the ten toes would represent "Rome" until the 15th century AD.

I am not sure how you can describe the ten toes as even existing in your short period of time from Daniel to the Messiah, about 500 years. Rome was not even divided as portrayed in Daniel 2 until around 300 AD. The Greek Empire was a divided empire that constantly had internal fighting, and was barely united with Alexander the Great for about 15 years. Daniel 7, 8, and 11 cover the infighting of the loosely held Greek empire, which was finished by the Roman Republic over a hundred years prior to the Roman Empire.

Was Daniel in Daniel 2 referring to the Roman Republic or the Roman Empire? Neither were ever divided nor viewed as clay and iron. Why were they not named like Babylon, Medes and Persians, or Greece? Daniel was fulfilled by the time Messiah arrived. Except for the 5th kingdom of the ten toes. Some of Daniel that was fulfilled set a type that was said to repeat historically, but was never said to ever be unfulfilled. No mention of the ten toes later in Daniel.

In Daniel 7, one can attempt to explain the ten horns are the ten toes, but that would be an erroneous assumption. Daniel was shown an undivided 4th kingdom, having 11 strong kings, not a divided kingdom having 10 divided sections. Toes would not represent individual kings, but show how the 5th kingdom was divided between clay and iron and ten different regions that used to be a single empire.

The entire statue was destroyed at the time of the feet and toes, not the legs, nor the waist.

"Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces."

The stone did not destroy the statue during the 3rd Kingdom, nor the 4th kingdom. The feet are the 5th Kingdom. But that is not confirmed until Revelation 17:10

"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is,"

Revelation adds two kingdoms to the image of Daniel 2, because the 7 headed dragon, the 7 headed beast of the sea, and the 7 headed scarlet colored beast, are made up of the same 5 kingdoms of Daniel 2.

Some claim, as you have pointed out, that much of Daniel is not fulfilled. You are taking it to the opposite extreme that all of Daniel was fulfilled by the time Jesus was born.

I disagree, because Daniel never explained nor was given an explanation of the feet and toes, as a fifth kingdom, and thus you deny a fifth kingdom altogether. You incorporate the feet and toes into your alleged understanding of the rest of Daniel placing the book fulfilled by the time Jesus was crucified and had already left the earth.

If one buries their head in the sands of time, and refuses to even look at the historical record, how is that any better than being overly obsessed with the historical fulfillment that has happened?

Daniel 7 does cover the first four kingdoms, but not the feet once. Daniel 8 is about the third kingdom, replacing the second kingdom.

"The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king."

Daniel 11 is the continuation of the third kingdom. The only time the 4th kingdom was covered was in chapter 7. I am not sure why one would deny that 4 out of the 12 chapters in Daniel are historical prophecy of future kingdoms. Yet it seems that even the Jews failed to keep Daniel relevant for the next 500 years. Or perhaps some did, while the majority would just do their own thing regardless of God's warnings found in Daniel.

One interesting note is that Daniel understood the spiritual realm that intersected with physical kingdoms on the earth. That thinking was lost when Greek Philosophy was mixed in with Christian Theology, and the deception of Satan causing us to only see creation as physical instead of biblical according to God's Word.

 

[CTK]

Would you even agree with the historical record concerning the Roman Empire?

Part 1.



I do agree with the historical records that Rome is the 4th kingdom beast. And, it was the kingdom in place at the time of the Messiah.

It can be argued that the 69 weeks of Daniel 9 were over when the 4th kingdom replaced the 3rd kingdom of Greece. Rome was never mentioned by name in Daniel.

I agree with this. There are perhaps 3 main interpretations on the timing of the start of the prophecy. Two are the different decree's by Artaxerxes and one much less accepted as Cyrus. And it was this reason that it was necessary for me to spend some time trying to determine the one that was to be used. There is only one decree that must be used. It is 457 BC because this is the only date that ties in perfectly with the Jewish Sabbatical cycle. We have a decree from a Gentile king (Artaxerses or Cyrus), but only one date that also begins the end of the 3rd Great Jubilee Sabbatical cycle (which becomes the beginning of the 4th and final GJ Sabbatical cylce). So the prophecy and the 4th Great Jubilee Sabbatical cycle begin and end on the same two time elements.

Rome is not ever mentioned in Daniel. But neither is the name of Alexander, or the little horn or the 10 toes / horns / kings, etc. Heck, within Daniel it does mention the Medes-Persia kingdom yet some argue that this should be split up to represent the 2nd and 3rd kingdoms, to be followed by Greece and then a 5th or even more kingdoms.

But the only way to determine this and so many more possible interpretations among the many verses in Daniel is to ensure each interpretation is tied or connected together to form one consistent and uninterupted prophetic picture. People can and will select Cyrus as the beginning of the prophecy because he did issue a decree to allow the Jews to return home, but that is not enough. This date would not connect or be supported by earlier Jewish events / dates or the future events that will come to pass.

God will use these 4 and only 4 kingdoms (with real identities, kings, conflicts,etc.) that did or would take place during the time period of the prophetic book. But these 4 kingdoms, their kings and conflicts are not the story. They are the structure where and when God will place His story within. Consequently, we should not interpret the Book of Daniel as a history book that must agree with our historical history books.- and that is exactly what everyone has done or attempted to do. When the events found in many, many verses in Daniel do not line up with our history books, they are almost always thrown far into the future, some 2000 years and then the crazy theories are developed because they try to interpret the verses in Revelation. And this is when there is no connection / ties / to the verses in Daniel. A perfect example of this found at an almost chapter level is Chapter 11. Everyone is more than convinced these verses up to perhaps 35 or so speak of the Ptolemy's, Seluecid's, and AE - because these are the folks that come after Greece. But they have nothing to do with Chapter 11...

So, God gave us the literal / actual names / titles / places / timing of the 4 and only 4 kingdoms for a purpose - to form a structure where He will place His prophetic events within them. We must use them as they are intended, to guide us and keep us in this formal structure (place and time) but not to use them to construct a history lesson that comforms with the chronological events found in our history books. This is why I have mentioned that there is sufficient information WITHIN Book of Daniel to interpret the Book of Daniel without extra-biblical records or source documents. In fact, as we have seen from today's accepted interpretations from all the brilliant scholars, academics and theologians (who do not agree among themselves) are based on how well we can match Daniel's verses to our history books.

Which is certainly interesting considering that historically the Roman Republic was established and flourishing from 509 to 27 BC. It was a city state well known along side of Greece, which was never that big of an empire to begin with itself.

I agree, although some may begin the Roman Empire around 63 BC and end around 476 AD (pagan Rome not papal Rome), but your point is well taken. So the 70 weeks of years prophecy spanned 3 of the 4 kingdoms: began in 457 BC during the 2nd kingdom and would end within the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome - 33/34 AD.

The Roman Empire was not even divided until the 4th century AD, and the ten toes would represent "Rome" until the 15th century AD.

Pagan Rome would essentially end around 476 AD. It would come to be replaced by papal Rome who would come to full power around 530 AD. After the cross, the 4th beast kingdom of pagan Rome would begin its downfall and within 400 years, it would cease to be (7:11). Also, during this same time period, the Christian church would grow exponentially, despite severe persecution - even by pagan Rome who would eventually come to decree Christianity as the religion of pagan Rome - around 380 AD. So the church was gaining tremendous strength and power while pagan Rome was doing the opposite. Also, during this growth period of the church, there would be heavy arguing and fighting for power over this church. There were 4 major Christian centers - Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria and Rome. Each of the bishops of these 4 centers wanted to be the head of this new powerful church, but Rome would win out and become the head of the Christian church headed by its bishop who would become the pope / papacy / little horn.

I am not sure how you can describe the ten toes as even existing in your short period of time from Daniel to the Messiah, about 500 years. Rome was not even divided as portrayed in Daniel 2 until around 300 AD.

I agree and understand. The "divided" 4th kingdom is papal Rome who would not come to full power until around 530 AD. Pagan Rome would cease to be around 476 AD. I think you might agree that in Chapter 7, Daniel tells us the 10 horns (10 toes in Chapter 2) will come out of this 4th beast kingdom, and then a "little horn" will also come out of after them.

And because everyone has interpreted Daniel as a history book, there is absolutely no way they can identify the 10 horns / kings, because they are not found in our history books - thus, they contend they must be 10 kings coming in the far future - that is why they are not in our history books.. And then the theories begin...some or most are quite unbelievable. It is necessary to put our history books away - back in the history section of the library and study Daniel alone. God has all the information within Daniel to interpret it... that is exactly what He expected to be done by the Jews when they came back from Babylon. They would never resort to accessing any historical (Gentile) records at that time to interpret Daniel - they would study Daniel and also look back to the other books of the Tanakh for possible connections - like in Jeremiah or Isaiah or Ezekiel....

 

[Cassandra]

Would you even agree with the historical record concerning the Roman Empire?

It can be argued that the 69 weeks of Daniel 9 were over when the 4th kingdom replaced the 3rd kingdom of Greece. Rome was never mentioned by name in Daniel.

Which is certainly interesting considering that historically the Roman Republic was established and flourishing from 509 to 27 BC. It was a city state well known along side of Greece, which was never that big of an empire to begin with itself.

The Roman Empire was not even divided until the 4th century AD, and the ten toes would represent "Rome" until the 15th century AD.

I am not sure how you can describe the ten toes as even existing in your short period of time from Daniel to the Messiah, about 500 years. Rome was not even divided as portrayed in Daniel 2 until around 300 AD. The Greek Empire was a divided empire that constantly had internal fighting, and was barely united with Alexander the Great for about 15 years. Daniel 7, 8, and 11 cover the infighting of the loosely held Greek empire, which was finished by the Roman Republic over a hundred years prior to the Roman Empire.

Was Daniel in Daniel 2 referring to the Roman Republic or the Roman Empire? Neither were ever divided nor viewed as clay and iron. Why were they not named like Babylon, Medes and Persians, or Greece? Daniel was fulfilled by the time Messiah arrived. Except for the 5th kingdom of the ten toes. Some of Daniel that was fulfilled set a type that was said to repeat historically, but was never said to ever be unfulfilled. No mention of the ten toes later in Daniel.

In Daniel 7, one can attempt to explain the ten horns are the ten toes, but that would be an erroneous assumption. Daniel was shown an undivided 4th kingdom, having 11 strong kings, not a divided kingdom having 10 divided sections. Toes would not represent individual kings, but show how the 5th kingdom was divided between clay and iron and ten different regions that used to be a single empire.

The entire statue was destroyed at the time of the feet and toes, not the legs, nor the waist.

"Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces."

The stone did not destroy the statue during the 3rd Kingdom, nor the 4th kingdom. The feet are the 5th Kingdom. But that is not confirmed until Revelation 17:10

"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is,"

Revelation adds two kingdoms to the image of Daniel 2, because the 7 headed dragon, the 7 headed beast of the sea, and the 7 headed scarlet colored beast, are made up of the same 5 kingdoms of Daniel 2.

Some claim, as you have pointed out, that much of Daniel is not fulfilled. You are taking it to the opposite extreme that all of Daniel was fulfilled by the time Jesus was born.

I disagree, because Daniel never explained nor was given an explanation of the feet and toes, as a fifth kingdom, and thus you deny a fifth kingdom altogether. You incorporate the feet and toes into your alleged understanding of the rest of Daniel placing the book fulfilled by the time Jesus was crucified and had already left the earth.

If one buries their head in the sands of time, and refuses to even look at the historical record, how is that any better than being overly obsessed with the historical fulfillment that has happened?

Daniel 7 does cover the first four kingdoms, but not the feet once. Daniel 8 is about the third kingdom, replacing the second kingdom.

"The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king."

Daniel 11 is the continuation of the third kingdom. The only time the 4th kingdom was covered was in chapter 7. I am not sure why one would deny that 4 out of the 12 chapters in Daniel are historical prophecy of future kingdoms. Yet it seems that even the Jews failed to keep Daniel relevant for the next 500 years. Or perhaps some did, while the majority would just do their own thing regardless of God's warnings found in Daniel.

One interesting note is that Daniel understood the spiritual realm that intersected with physical kingdoms on the earth. That thinking was lost when Greek Philosophy was mixed in with Christian Theology, and the deception of Satan causing us to only see creation as physical instead of biblical according to God's Word.

It doesn't say the feet are the 5th kingdom. The toes of iron and clay do not mix, but iron (Rome) is still evident.

 

[CTK]

I am not sure how you can describe the ten toes as even existing in your short period of time from Daniel to the Messiah, about 500 years. Rome was not even divided as portrayed in Daniel 2 until around 300 AD. The Greek Empire was a divided empire that constantly had internal fighting, and was barely united with Alexander the Great for about 15 years. Daniel 7, 8, and 11 cover the infighting of the loosely held Greek empire, which was finished by the Roman Republic over a hundred years prior to the Roman Empire.

Part 2.


Absolutely not. There are very few verses in these chapters that deal with the first 3 kingdoms. The majority of these verses focus on the 4th kingdom of Rome (pagan or papal). In Chapter 11, only verses 1-4 speak of the kingdoms before pagan Rome. However, if you try to match those verses to our history books you will vehemently contend they speak of the post Alexander powers and their conflicts. God is not writing a history book only to recount those events found in our very flawed history books. It is all about the restoration of His people and His city and His plan of salvation. This of course includes the most important event in the history of mankind - His arrival on the first day of the last week of the prophecy and all the wonderful and horrible events that will take place during those 3.5 years. As a result of the cross, it would start a series of events that would continue until His second coming, but most of Daniel reflects the time of the Messiah - not future or end time events.

Was Daniel in Daniel 2 referring to the Roman Republic or the Roman Empire? Neither were ever divided nor viewed as clay and iron. Why were they not named like Babylon, Medes and Persians, or Greece? Daniel was fulfilled by the time Messiah arrived. Except for the 5th kingdom of the ten toes. Some of Daniel that was fulfilled set a type that was said to repeat historically, but was never said to ever be unfulfilled. No mention of the ten toes later in Daniel.

Great question! He was referring to both. Pagan Rome was the 4th beast kingdom. There are only 4 kingdoms that God selected to come out of the earth or the sea.... that would never change - even until today's time. However, within Chapter 2, God will reveal that the 4th kingdom will be a "divided" kingdom. He provides all of this information in verses 41-43. They are perhaps 3 of the most difficult verses to interpret. It would take me months to go back to try and interpret them after leaving them uninterpreted for more than a year or so as I moved on to the later chapters in Daniel. And I found I could not interpret 7, 8, 9 or 11 or 12 until I had gone back to Chapter 2 and look at these verses another 100 times or so trying to understand them. They have nothing to do with historical records and only when we focus on His plan of salvation can we see His prophecies. Papal Rome will replace pagan Rome and be identified as the "divided" kingdom but notice that there still will only be 4 kingdoms that come out of the earth or sea. Neither were ever divided nor viewed as clay and iron.

In Daniel 7, one can attempt to explain the ten horns are the ten toes, but that would be an erroneous assumption.

No, see above.

Daniel was shown an undivided 4th kingdom, having 11 strong kings, not a divided kingdom having 10 divided sections. Toes would not represent individual kings, but show how the 5th kingdom was divided between clay and iron and ten different regions that used to be a single empire.

The 4th kingdom of pagan Rome was "divided"... not in a military or secular sense as everyone thinks. It was a "divided" kingdom in keeping with God's plan of salvation. The secular 4th kingdom would be "divided" or changed into a religious / secular type kingdom come to be known as papal Rome. They would start out as the Jewish / Christian church after the cross. Then they would be dominated by the sheer number of Gentiles who accepted Christianity. They this new movement would kick out the Jews who started this church and begin to set up its own military like heirachy - with many levels of powers - priest's, bishops. etc. This now Gentile / Christian church would become more powerful than pagan Rome and when pagan Rome ceased to be, they took over both religious and secular powers.

Daniel was fulfilled by the time Messiah arrived. Except for the 5th kingdom of the ten toes. Some of Daniel that was fulfilled set a type that was said to repeat historically, but was never said to ever be unfulfilled. No mention of the ten toes later in Daniel.
No that is not true.... unless you are attempting to interpret Daniel in a "historical" approach. Then, you will never find or identify the 10 toes / horns / kings.

 

[CTK]

In Daniel 7, one can attempt to explain the ten horns are the ten toes, but that would be an erroneous assumption. Daniel was shown an undivided 4th kingdom, having 11 strong kings, not a divided kingdom having 10 divided sections. Toes would not represent individual kings, but show how the 5th kingdom was divided between clay and iron and ten different regions that used to be a single empire.

Part 3.

No, please see above.

The entire statue was destroyed at the time of the feet and toes, not the legs, nor the waist.

No, and this is one of the most important finds / interpretations within Daniel. Chapter 2:34 and 2:35 are believed by EVERYONE to represent the stone striking the feet of the image and destroying all 4 kingdoms. And this will occur in conjunction with 2:35 at the end of time when Jesus will return. However, this is one of the most greatly misinterpreted verses in Daniel.


Verse 2:34 represents the Messiah coming in the first century and He will strike the feet of the image. Jesus did not come to destroy but to "divide." He did not come as a conquering king but as a suffering servant. Thus, this stone represents the Messiah striking within the feet of the pagan Roman kingdom and breaking apart ONLY THE IRON AND THE CLAY COMPONENTS WITHIN THE FEET OF THE 4TH KINGDOM. Symbolically, the cross would represent the power to separate the iron and the clay components held tightly within pagan Rome. The iron represents the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome. The clay represents the His people who were subjugated and kept under control within the powerful pagan Roman empire. After the cross, God (the Potter) would now select those "pottery clay" who would accept Him as their Messiah and go out into the world preaching the Good News. The "ceramic" clay that remained represents those hardened Jews who would reject and continue to reject Him even after His resurrection. They would continue in their pre-cross Jewish religion. They continue to today as "ceramic" clay who do not accept Jesus. And of course, the iron within the feet are no different than the iron in the legs. Pagan Rome was the 4th kingdom that encased the "clay" (Jews) element within their kingdom. (2:41-43).

"Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces."

The stone did not destroy the statue during the 3rd Kingdom, nor the 4th kingdom. The feet are the 5th Kingdom. But that is not confirmed until Revelation 17:10

"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is,"

Revelation adds two kingdoms to the image of Daniel 2, because the 7 headed dragon, the 7 headed beast of the sea, and the 7 headed scarlet colored beast, are made up of the same 5 kingdoms of Daniel 2.

I have not studied Revelation and cannot comment on how these interpretations in Daniel move forward to the verses in Revelation but because "today's accepted interpretations" of Daniel are grossly misinterpreted, Revelation cannot be properly interpreted. Most try to interpret Revelation and then send that interpretation back to Daniel ... this will ensure they agree but that is circular reasoning. Daniel must be interpreted without any extra-biblical source documents and then take those interpretations forward to Revelation.

Some claim, as you have pointed out, that much of Daniel is not fulfilled. You are taking it to the opposite extreme that all of Daniel was fulfilled by the time Jesus was born.

I never said that. I said that most of Daniel is fulfilled by the end of the 70th week prophecy or by the time of the cross 3.5 years earlier. What Daniel does also tell us of the following events after that period of time:


1) Jews who accepted Jesus as their Messiah (pottery clay) will start His church and preach the Good News throughout the Roman Empire,
2) The city and Temple and over one million Jews will be destroyed in 70 AD,
3) As a direct result of their rejection of their Messiah, He would become desolat to them for over 2000 years (time of the Gentiles),
4) His church will grow exponentially during the coming 400 years and be appropriated / taken over by the Gentiles and after the demise of pagan Rome in 476 AD, papal Rome will come to full power and rule both the church and the secular activities of the 4th kingdom (now it is known as the "divided" 4th kingdom),
5) this final phase of the 4th kingdom would be ruled by the bishop of Rome who would be successful in taken power over the other 3 Christian centers at that time. This most powerful bishop would become known as the pope / papacy or the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8. He would start out small (just as the church started) and grow to the top of the 4th beast kingdom after pagan Rome was destroyed).
6) He would continue until the return of Jesus who will destroy him. He is the vile one in Chapter 11, he is the little horn that goes against everything that is of God, he is the one who claims equality with God and is divine, can forgive sin, etc., Can you find anyone on the earth that fits the description and characteristices found in Daniel Chapters 7, 8 , 9 and 11? There is no 7 year tribulation, no boogeyman anti-christ literal figure... the little horn is the only "anti-christ" literal individual in Daniel. He was prophecized in Daniel and will be with us until He returns...... but we simply refuse to recognize him as Daniel's little horn. Who do you think created the 7 year tribution and this coming boogeyman / anti-christ literal figure? It was the little horn himself in the 16th century that devised this gross misinterpretation.

I disagree, because Daniel never explained nor was given an explanation of the feet and toes, as a fifth kingdom, and thus you deny a fifth kingdom altogether. You incorporate the feet and toes into your alleged understanding of the rest of Daniel placing the book fulfilled by the time Jesus was crucified and had already left the earth.

You are correct. But Daniel did explain the identity of the feet and toes and the 4 and only 4 kingdoms... but they cannot be identified or interpreted using the "historical" approach because they are not found in our history books.

If one buries their head in the sands of time, and refuses to even look at the historical record, how is that any better than being overly obsessed with the historical fulfillment that has happened?

I understand your comment because EVERYONE, all of today's accepted interpretations are based on our historical records and how well they can be matched up to the verses in Daniel. But once again, Daniel is not a history books and God will use those literal kingdoms, kings, and events that are actually found in our history to place His prophetic messages. The 4 kingdoms are not the story, they are the structure where He places His story within.

Daniel 7 does cover the first four kingdoms, but not the feet once. Daniel 8 is about the third kingdom, replacing the second kingdom.+

No. please see above.

"The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king."

Agree.

Daniel 11 is the continuation of the third kingdom. The only time the 4th kingdom was covered was in chapter 7. I am not sure why one would deny that 4 out of the 12 chapters in Daniel are historical prophecy of future kingdoms. Yet it seems that even the Jews failed to keep Daniel relevant for the next 500 years. Or perhaps some did, while the majority would just do their own thing regardless of God's warnings found in Daniel.

No, although I do understand that this maybe the most accepted interpretation found among the many scholars, academics and theologians, and thus, have become "today's accepted interpretations."

 

[CTK]

One interesting note is that Daniel understood the spiritual realm that intersected with physical kingdoms on the earth. That thinking was lost when Greek Philosophy was mixed in with Christian Theology, and the deception of Satan causing us to only see creation as physical instead of biblical according to God's Word.

Part 4.

I certainly agree with some of this! But I believe it was the "divided" 4th kingdom of papal Rome that appropriated His church and offered a very different gospel. Their church looked nothing like the church that Paul started. Can you imagine Paul believing that a pope of the 4th kingdom of Rome would be equal to God, claim divinity as Jesus, forgive sin, change His laws and commandments, bring in pagan practices, murder and steal and on and on..... Would Paul agree that "tradition and the magisterium" would be a greater set of doctrines that the Scriptures?


I certainly understand just how much my comments depart from "today's accepted interpretations." They are like apples and oranges. But I have spent over the past 5 years doing nothing but trying to unpack the Book of Daniel. I started the same way anyone would begin - read everything that our scholars, academics, and theologians have given us to interpret the Book of Daniel. But because they did not agree with themselves, I realized that at least 2 of the 3 major interpretations on a particular verse or subject had to be wrong... or worse, they all were wrong. Of course, they all were correct when our historical records fit very nicely and easily to the verses in Daniel, but when the verses shifted to the more spiritual or truly prophetic, their method of interpretation did not change with it.

I certainly understand your comments and many others within this forum because they represent those same interpretations that attempt to mirror those found in our history books, and when they do not, they are treated all as "end time events." But they are far from end time events.

I am sure you understand it is literally impossible to provide the level of support and details for each of the very different interpretations... it would literally take a book to reveal. Therefore, if you are really interested in reading a non-historical interpretation of the Book of Daniel that will spell out all of these new interpretations, I would suggest the following:


1) You could provide me with an appropriate mailing address,. PO Box, church address, etc. in a private message within this forum, and I will send you and author's copy of my recent commentary on the Book of Daniel. It will be sent directly from Amazon at no cost to you.

2) Or, as others have done, they were willing to go directly to the Amazon site and purchase the book on their own and keep their personal information to themselves. If this is something you might prefer, send me a private message and I will provide you with the title, subtitle, etc. ISBN #, etc., for you to purchase on your own.

3) None of the above.... no problem at all. This is available to others within this forum as well.... until and or if it becomes too much for me.

4) the commentary is 398 pages in length.

 

[CTK]

Would you even agree with the historical record concerning the Roman Empire?

It can be argued that the 69 weeks of Daniel 9 were over when the 4th kingdom replaced the 3rd kingdom of Greece. Rome was never mentioned by name in Daniel.

Which is certainly interesting considering that historically the Roman Republic was established and flourishing from 509 to 27 BC. It was a city state well known along side of Greece, which was never that big of an empire to begin with itself.

The Roman Empire was not even divided until the 4th century AD, and the ten toes would represent "Rome" until the 15th century AD.

I am not sure how you can describe the ten toes as even existing in your short period of time from Daniel to the Messiah, about 500 years. Rome was not even divided as portrayed in Daniel 2 until around 300 AD. The Greek Empire was a divided empire that constantly had internal fighting, and was barely united with Alexander the Great for about 15 years. Daniel 7, 8, and 11 cover the infighting of the loosely held Greek empire, which was finished by the Roman Republic over a hundred years prior to the Roman Empire.

Was Daniel in Daniel 2 referring to the Roman Republic or the Roman Empire? Neither were ever divided nor viewed as clay and iron. Why were they not named like Babylon, Medes and Persians, or Greece? Daniel was fulfilled by the time Messiah arrived. Except for the 5th kingdom of the ten toes. Some of Daniel that was fulfilled set a type that was said to repeat historically, but was never said to ever be unfulfilled. No mention of the ten toes later in Daniel.

In Daniel 7, one can attempt to explain the ten horns are the ten toes, but that would be an erroneous assumption. Daniel was shown an undivided 4th kingdom, having 11 strong kings, not a divided kingdom having 10 divided sections. Toes would not represent individual kings, but show how the 5th kingdom was divided between clay and iron and ten different regions that used to be a single empire.

The entire statue was destroyed at the time of the feet and toes, not the legs, nor the waist.

"Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces."

The stone did not destroy the statue during the 3rd Kingdom, nor the 4th kingdom. The feet are the 5th Kingdom. But that is not confirmed until Revelation 17:10

"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is,"

Revelation adds two kingdoms to the image of Daniel 2, because the 7 headed dragon, the 7 headed beast of the sea, and the 7 headed scarlet colored beast, are made up of the same 5 kingdoms of Daniel 2.

Some claim, as you have pointed out, that much of Daniel is not fulfilled. You are taking it to the opposite extreme that all of Daniel was fulfilled by the time Jesus was born.

I disagree, because Daniel never explained nor was given an explanation of the feet and toes, as a fifth kingdom, and thus you deny a fifth kingdom altogether. You incorporate the feet and toes into your alleged understanding of the rest of Daniel placing the book fulfilled by the time Jesus was crucified and had already left the earth.

If one buries their head in the sands of time, and refuses to even look at the historical record, how is that any better than being overly obsessed with the historical fulfillment that has happened?

Daniel 7 does cover the first four kingdoms, but not the feet once. Daniel 8 is about the third kingdom, replacing the second kingdom.

"The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king."

Daniel 11 is the continuation of the third kingdom. The only time the 4th kingdom was covered was in chapter 7. I am not sure why one would deny that 4 out of the 12 chapters in Daniel are historical prophecy of future kingdoms. Yet it seems that even the Jews failed to keep Daniel relevant for the next 500 years. Or perhaps some did, while the majority would just do their own thing regardless of God's warnings found in Daniel.

One interesting note is that Daniel understood the spiritual realm that intersected with physical kingdoms on the earth. That thinking was lost when Greek Philosophy was mixed in with Christian Theology, and the deception of Satan causing us to only see creation as physical instead of biblical according to God's Word.

I don't want to come across as to push anyone to acquire my commentary on Daniel or accept my interpretations, but I would like to give you folks within this forum a snapshot of the Preface at the beginning of the Book. Even if you do not want to read all of the 398 pages or even most of them, you might be interested in picking through those few points of interest you might be curious about. So I have cut / paste 18 of the new interpretations found within this commentary. Please see below - offer is open to those in this forum....

Preface
​

The Book of Daniel is renowned for its prophetic insights, offering captivating narratives and vivid imagery across its twelve chapters. It is not a mere history book or lesson, but is a profound revelation of divine prophecy. Its pages unfold a host of visions and symbols that transcend mere historical accounts, offering deep insights into God's plan for salvation and restoration for all mankind. While it draws upon the backdrop of historical empires, its primary purpose is to convey prophetic truths that resonate across time.

One crucial distinction this commentary emphasizes is the absence of any need to compare or support the events depicted in Daniel to those recorded in our history books. Unlike some interpretations that seek to align the two, this approach asserts the self-sufficiency of God's prophetic word. It challenges readers to approach the text on its own terms, free from the constraints of historical reconciliation. By embracing this perspective, the commentary offers over fifty new interpretations that depart from conventional readings, shedding fresh light on key passages and symbols. It invites readers to delve deeper into the prophetic depths of Daniel.

From the enigmatic metal-man image in Chapter 2 to the dramatic furnace scene in Chapter 3, and the cryptic "handwriting on the wall" in Chapter 5, Daniel presents many intriguing visions. As the narrative progresses, it unveils the four kingdoms of the world, symbolized by both wild and domesticated beasts in Chapters 7 and 8, respectively. Together, these elements paint a compelling picture of the future kingdoms destined to shape the earth. In addition to outlining the four kingdoms, Daniel also highlights the kings of these kingdoms who are pivotal to the unfolding story. Spanning from 606 BC to the anticipated second coming, this narrative serves as a divine blueprint for the salvation and restoration of the Jews and humanity at large.

Understanding the prophetic messages in the Book of Daniel presents a significant challenge. While the narrative unfolds within the context of historical empires—Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome—it goes beyond mere historical accounts. This historical framework serves as a foundation upon which God's prophetic visions are portrayed. This commentary offers a fresh perspective on the Book of Daniel, challenging traditional interpretations with three key distinctions.

First, it dismisses the idea of separating the book into "historical" and "prophetic" sections, asserting that the entire book is prophetic. Secondly, it emphasizes interpreting the text independently of extrabiblical sources, highlighting the sufficiency of God's Word alone. Lastly, it focuses on the overarching theme of the Messiah's role in salvation, bringing new meaning and depth to the text.



Here are just a few intriguing questions or controversies addressed by this approach:

1. Why is Chapter 1:1 to 2:4 written in Hebrew.

2. Who or what symbolizes the clay in the feet of the metal-man image.

3. What significance do the ten toes, ten horns, and ten kings hold.

4. Why did Nebuchadnezzar compose Chapter 4 in his own handwriting.

5. What is the meaning of "seven times" during Nebuchadnezzar’s trial.

6. What is the significance of "time, times, and half a time."

7. Who is the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8.

8. Who are the three horns that are uprooted.

9. Who are the identities of KOS and KON.

10. What is the definition of the "abomination that causes desolation."

11. What is the significance of the enigmatic "2300 evenings and mornings."

12. Who is the identity of "he" in 9:27.

13. Identifying the prince in "the people of the prince to come."

14. Determining the start and end of the seventy weeks of years.

15. Interpreting the concept of the "covenant" and its timing.

16. Understanding the reason behind Daniel's mourning for 21 days.

17. Exploring the significance of the "daughter of woman."

18. Unveiling the meaning behind the 1290 days and the 1335 days.

 

[Timtofly]

So the 70 weeks of years prophecy spanned 3 of the 4 kingdoms: began in 457 BC during the 2nd kingdom and would end within the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome - 33/34 AD.

No, the 69 weeks spanned the 4 kingdoms in Daniel 2. There has been no conclusion of the 70th week. That time is not up until the 7th Trumpet declares the 70 weeks are over.

There is no end mentioned in the entire book of Daniel of the 70 weeks. Daniel is a cliffhanger, so to speak.

Daniel was told to seal up the book, until the time of the end.

"But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

That is the Hebrew version of a cliffhanger.

 

[Timtofly]

It doesn't say the feet are the 5th kingdom. The toes of iron and clay do not mix, but iron (Rome) is still evident.

"It" does not say anything. The book of Revelation declares the 5th kingdom is the ten toes as five are fallen, meaning all of the 5 sections of that image are gone to make way for the 6th kingdom.

 

[Timtofly]

Part 2.


Absolutely not. There are very few verses in these chapters that deal with the first 3 kingdoms. The majority of these verses focus on the 4th kingdom of Rome (pagan or papal). In Chapter 11, only verses 1-4 speak of the kingdoms before pagan Rome. However, if you try to match those verses to our history books you will vehemently contend they speak of the post Alexander powers and their conflicts. God is not writing a history book only to recount those events found in our very flawed history books. It is all about the restoration of His people and His city and His plan of salvation. This of course includes the most important event in the history of mankind - His arrival on the first day of the last week of the prophecy and all the wonderful and horrible events that will take place during those 3.5 years. As a result of the cross, it would start a series of events that would continue until His second coming, but most of Daniel reflects the time of the Messiah - not future or end time events.





Great question! He was referring to both. Pagan Rome was the 4th beast kingdom. There are only 4 kingdoms that God selected to come out of the earth or the sea.... that would never change - even until today's time. However, within Chapter 2, God will reveal that the 4th kingdom will be a "divided" kingdom. He provides all of this information in verses 41-43. They are perhaps 3 of the most difficult verses to interpret. It would take me months to go back to try and interpret them after leaving them uninterpreted for more than a year or so as I moved on to the later chapters in Daniel. And I found I could not interpret 7, 8, 9 or 11 or 12 until I had gone back to Chapter 2 and look at these verses another 100 times or so trying to understand them. They have nothing to do with historical records and only when we focus on His plan of salvation can we see His prophecies. Papal Rome will replace pagan Rome and be identified as the "divided" kingdom but notice that there still will only be 4 kingdoms that come out of the earth or sea. Neither were ever divided nor viewed as clay and iron.


No, see above.


The 4th kingdom of pagan Rome was "divided"... not in a military or secular sense as everyone thinks. It was a "divided" kingdom in keeping with God's plan of salvation. The secular 4th kingdom would be "divided" or changed into a religious / secular type kingdom come to be known as papal Rome. They would start out as the Jewish / Christian church after the cross. Then they would be dominated by the sheer number of Gentiles who accepted Christianity. They this new movement would kick out the Jews who started this church and begin to set up its own military like heirachy - with many levels of powers - priest's, bishops. etc. This now Gentile / Christian church would become more powerful than pagan Rome and when pagan Rome ceased to be, they took over both religious and secular powers.

Daniel was fulfilled by the time Messiah arrived. Except for the 5th kingdom of the ten toes. Some of Daniel that was fulfilled set a type that was said to repeat historically, but was never said to ever be unfulfilled. No mention of the ten toes later in Daniel.
No that is not true.... unless you are attempting to interpret Daniel in a "historical" approach. Then, you will never find or identify the 10 toes / horns / kings.

I am not one who claims any of Daniel's visions will happen in the future.


What Daniel is told by an angel falls into a different category of prophecy.

What Gabriel told Daniel in chapter 9 is not an explanation of any of Daniel's visions.

All of Daniel was fulfilled except for the 5th kingdom of the feet and toes, when Messiah came. If you are going to figure out Daniel, sans history, or even the NT, that just seems like going out of the way to avoid history, even though you have to have some history as you seem to agree that Rome is the 4th kingdom, even in Daniel 7.

My personal opinion of Daniel is that Daniel is having repeated dreams of the original dream given to Nebuchadnezzar. I am not that concerned about past history, would be my explanation of Daniel.

I am not saying you are right or wrong in your approach. It is different than most.

 

[Jay Ross]

Hello

It is not kosher to mix prophetic words of God together as has been done in this thread, particularly when the prophetic words are not related with each other and are on very different prophetic topics.

Shalom

 

[Keraz]

I am not one who claims any of Daniel's visions will happen in the future.

Many of those visions did happen in Daniels future. The Fourth Kingdom of Daniel 7:23-25 remains in our future.

One crucial distinction this commentary emphasizes is the absence of any need to compare or support the events depicted in Daniel to those recorded in our history books.

Sorry, I cannot buy this, as there are certain historical proofs that show how accurate and true Daniels Prophesies were.
The 2300 evenings and mornings, for example; were fulfilled by Antiochus 4th E, the 1150 days that the Temple lay in a desolate state - 167 to 164 BC.