Daniel Chapter 2
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Marty, you are going to have to forgive me... I am still not sure I understand your point of view so I will try and ask a question to help me go down this path slowly...
Are you saying the 6 elements in 9:24 are things that the Jews must fulfill or complete, and, they are not the God given mission to the Messiah that He will complete during His 3.5 years while on earth?
I think this might help me understand your position, thanks.
No not at all, I believe that the Jews fulfilled these during the time of the Maccabees. They fulfilled it by their actions and were justified by faith and history matches it.
Think about it, the 70 weeks were an answer to Daniels prayer for the people of his time. He knew Jermiah's 70 years were coming to an end and the people were still not repenting so Daniel was pleading to God for mercy on their behalf.
The vision of the 70 weeks would show what was going to happen a terrible time but also give hope because they would at the end overcome but still be under foreign control because they didn't repent after the 70 years. We need to look at the context of the whole chapter 9.
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In 63 BC Pompey entered the holy of holies during the Roman conquest and in 54 BC the temple treasury was plundered by Crassus. Herod started construction of the “Second Temple” in 20 BC.
If the 70th week ended in 164/163 BC and the Jews put an end to transgression by resisting and defeating A4E, then would Pompey standing in the holy of holies not be a transgression?
It seems to me that there were transgressions happening in the physical temple up until Christ’s body becomes the temple.
Yes of course, but it's the context of the time period of the 70 weeks that I'm talking about.
The context is when things were finally made right for the first time after the Babylonian captivity. That is what Daniels prayer is about in the first section of Daniel chapter 9 and the message af the 70 weeks was the answer to Daniels prayer.
Keraz
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You are trying to fit our future into the past. Doesn't work.
What is Prophesied in the Bible, esp in Revelation, mostly remains unfulfilled. It is an amazing story, that ends with God being all in all.
Sad how some think this world is irredeemable. Also sad how good Christians fail to understand Gods plans for them and the Church.
So in your estimation the Daniel 9:24 list of items to be fulfilled are not a permanent condition?
I know for sure the righteousness is eternal, I suppose you could say the vision never gets unsealed, and the Holy place remains anointed, but the others were only temporary?
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
In the verse above it states "upon thy people and upon thy holy city" thus the 70 weeks were for them not for all.
Now how do they obtain their everlasting righteousness? Just like we do by grace through faith.
Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
So to answer your question it is permanent but it only applies to us induvially if we live by faith.
If the 70th week was about Jesus how could all prophecy be fulfilled?
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Got it, and thanks for your response... I think I understand much more of your interpretation on the 70 weeks - the why that I was not finding...
Okay, you are indeed correct, your interpretation is quite a bit different than the 2 or 3 interpretations that most folks have come to accept. But it is all good!
First - you mention that the 70 weeks are an answer to Daniel's prayer in Chapter 9, and that is true. The 70 years were thought to be coming to an end (67 of the 70 were already fulfilled), and Daniel would see this King Darius who would take the throne after the Medes-Persians conquered Babylon. This did not make any sense to Daniel because he was aware through the prophet Isaiah that a king named Cyrus would allow his people to return to Jerusalem. There is no mention of Darius in the Scriptures prior to the Book of Daniel and not even in the earlier chapters of Daniel. This was a problem for Daniel since this new king did not match up with God's prophecy in Isaiah.
Daniel was also very confused because he received two separate visions - #7 and #8 prior to Babylon being conquered, and he had no clue what they meant. All of this was too much for him to bear and he had no understanding what was happening or would now happen to his people should the 70 years punishment in Babylon not be honored. He would do what he always had done in the past, he would turn to God and pray to Him to not only understand why he was given the two prior visions if he could not understand them and to pray to God for the forgiveness of his people and himself = the Repentence Clause in Leviticus 26:40-46. Essentially, this was necessary since it is all to common for people who have been found guilty of a sin or transgression to serve their time in jail and come out without a true sense of contrition. They simply have paid their time in prison but not truly repent of the sin they were punished for.
So Daniel's prayer was indeed sincere and God would tell Gabriel to give Daniel the 70 weeks of years prophecy. The Jews were guilty of not honoring the land Sabbath, they were properly punished for 70 years (or soon to end), and now Daniel will pray to God revealing a sincere and true sign of contrition and asking Him for forgiveness.
Therefore, Gabriel will reveal to Daniel God's plan to RESTORE his people and his city back to the way it was prior to the Babylonian exile. God would reveal everything that needed to be restored - the physical elements, the walls, the streets, the ceremonial practices, the Sabbatical cycles... everything that was either taken away or destroyed by the Babylonians. He would reveal the responsible party to complete these tasks and the timing of their completion. They would also be completed in the reverse order of how they were either taken away of destroyed.
The Jews would complete their assignment within the first 49 years of the prophecy, and the Messiah would be given the last week of 7 years to fulfill His mission - not only the 6 elements of 9:24, but He would also represent the very first piece of furniture in the Sanctuary that was taken away by Jeremiah - the Ark of the Covenant. Jesus would arrive on the first day of the 70the week to begin His ministry and of course, He would be crucified exactly 3.5 years of the last 7 years of the prophecy. But He would also fulfill all of His God given missions, and He would set up His church on earth, send His Holy Spirit on Pentecost.... all within the last 7 years of the prophecy.
The Jews rejected and crucified their Messiah.... it was their unbelief He was their Messiah that would cause God to make Himself desolate to His people for the next 2000 years. The prophecy was for the restoration of the Jews and the city.... after Babylon, and God would incorporate within this time period His arrival on earth in the last week of the prophecy.
God is responding to Daniel after his sincere prayer of forgiveness and He would decide to restore his people and his city (God would not use the term "His people or His city," but Daniel's people and city to show who and when this prophecy would be for....
This is also why I provided you with a list of all the events that would support the beginning of the prophecy being 457 BC. It all has to tie together... everything before the start of the prophecy, the time of the prophecy, and all the events that would take place within their respective section of the prophecy, and most importantly, the arrival of the Messiah in the final week of the prophecy.
So, these prophecies in Chapter 9 can be matched up to the actual events - from the restoration of the Jews, the city, and the coming of the Messiah....
Marty, in one of my previous responses to you - #28, I listed more than a few events that, for me, provide all the support for determing the beginning of the 70 weeks of years prophecy (I have cut / pasted them below). But the start of this prophecy (457 BC) would be of no value if the prophecy did not unfold exactly as it was revealed in Chapter 9. The prophecy does not mention anything about the Macabbee period, and it does not fit within the context of the complete restoration of the people and the city after Babylon. It also does not tie into the coming of the Messiah in the last week of the prophecy when He will fufill His mission (9:24), establish His church and send His Holy Spirit on Pentecost. All of the items listed below are not conicidences. The Jews have no ability to fulfill any of the elements in 9:24- these are only given to the Messiah to fulfill.
Gabriel gave Daniel an understanding of what would be restored and when only in the first and the third sections of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. The second or the longest section of time - 434 years were not discussed. The two bookends of the prophecy were purposefully discussed - those elements that would be restored and performed by the Jews, and those elements that would be restored and performed by the Messiah. The Macabbee period fell within this "silent period."
Give this alittle thought... if you do not mind.
I have found there are a few interpretations on the start of the 490 years prophecy:
1) Where the prophecy begins at 457 BC,
2) Where it begins in 445 BC,
3) And yours, where it begins in 538 BC (I hope I have that right), when the Jews are allowed to return home to Jerusalem.
And, each interpreter is quite confident in their respective interpretations. So, what is the beginning and why should it be the beginning? it took me awhile to determine this... even though this seems to be a relatively simple choice - now among three options. I believe there is only one answer and it is confirmed as follows:
1) the 3rd Great Jubilee Cycle ended exactly in 457 BC,
2) the 70 weeks of years prophecy began in exactly 457 BC,
3) the start of the 4th Great Jubilee Cycle began in 457 BC,
4) the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy was scheduled to end in 33/34 AD,
5) the beginning of the 70 year exile to Babylon began in 606 BC,
6) the end of the 70 year exile was on 538 BC,
7) the first timed section of the 490 years or the first 7 weeks (49 years) occurred in 408 BC.
8) In 444/45 BC, Ezra would be found reading of the law ( Bood of Moses) in the month of Tishri. This would occur exactly 14 years after their return to Jerusalem (457 - 444). This reading was on the second 7 year Sabbatical cycle after their return. Thus , if we add back the two 7 year Sabbatical cycles, it brings us back to the start of the 4th Great Jubilee Cycle.
If you agree with this approach, then the beginning of the 70 weeks of years prophecy began in 457 BC, and would conclude in the last week of the 70 weeks when the Messiah would arrive on the first day of the last week (or 7 years), but would be crucified exactly 3.5 years of the last week of the prophecy.
Marty, two questions - how could the Jews fulfill those things mentioned in 9:24? Only God has those powers. Secondly, what do you mean in your last comment - How could all the prophecy be fulfilled if the 70th week (not the 69th week) was the week the Messiah would arrive to begin His ministry?
Its not scripture its history as recorded the books of Maccabees by resisted and defeating Antiochus Epiphanies and rededicating the temple sacrifice.
Ok, I agree that “upon thy people and upon thy holy city” isn’t meant for everyone, it’s meant for believers, people of faith.
The old covenant wasn’t permanent, it grew old and vanished. The new covenant is permanent, I don’t think anything under the old covenant could be everlasting. All the “forever” promises made in the Old Testament were pointing to the new covenant and fulfilled under the new covenant.
I would say it’s fulfilled this way, “thy people” are the body of Christ and “thy holy city” is the New Jerusalem bride of Christ.
Ronald D Milam
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Sure:
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
Jesus is that stone, he will destroy or SMASH the feet which is Iron and Clay (the E.U. whom the Little Horn or Anti-Christ/Beast will be the President/king). The Statue represents Satan's efforts through the ages to rule over Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region, Jesus' return will once and for all destroy this effort. Jesus will rule over all the earth for 1000 years, thus a Great Mountain = Power or a Ruling Kingdom.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
In vs. 41 we see the 10 toes, like the 10 horns in Dan. 7 this number represents COMPLETION, not 10, just like in Rev. 2:10 the Church of Smyrna would have tribulation for 10 days, that means for the Complete Church Age. The 10 Commandments, the 10 Plagues, and I believe the 144,000 is a code for All Israel who Repents (12 = Fulness and 10 = Completeness) thus 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 144,000 or God telling us this is all Israel, without giving Satan an actual number, in Zech. 13:8-9 it was give unto is in a ratio of 1/3. So, its going to be roughly 5 million Jews not 144,000. God uses numbers like this, 7 = Divine Completion. In vs. 41 we then see the kingdom will be divided, but still have the strength of Iron, at least in part.
In verse 42 we see Daniel says the 10 toes are made of Iron & Clay. and partly strong and partly weak. Well, that is exactly what we see in the E.U. they are DIVIDED NATIONS trying to be one Nation politically speaking, even though for 2000 years they have all grown apart and all have differing views. Some of these nations are very weak, like Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Cyprus and Estonia but you also see stronger nations like France, Germany, Spain, Belgium and Italy (England may rejoin). So, partly weak.......AND..........partly strong hits the mark there.
Verse 43 is telling us, yes when they do come back together, just like Iron & Clay does not mix properly, they will try to mingle all these different clans (SEED of men) together, but it will not work very well. They will not unite (CLEAVE TOGETHER) very well.
Thanks I will have to get back to this tomorrow as I'm busy tonight but can you please respond to my three points that I have mention a few times? I'll repost them and no one has yet.
Also If Jesus died half way through the 70th week how do you explain the last half of the 70th week and the big time gap in the middle of the 70th week.
Below are three main points to show that Jesus wasn't any part of the prophecy of the 70 weeks
1-Some people think that the 70 weeks start in 445 BC, but this is 160 years after 605 B.C. when the Jews were taken into captivity. If this was the case then the curse of the covenant would not come into effect on those who did not repent-in 535 B.C. when Jeremiah's 70 years prophecy expired. Instead it would come their grandchildren and great grandchildren which would violate the principal of the Law of Moses that children pay the price for their parents and grandparents sins.
2-It says that the anointed one will come after 62 & 7 weeks but he is cut off after 62 weeks. How can the anointed one if it is one person come 49 years after he is cut off? This proves that it is two different people. If it is Jesus how could He come 49 years after he dies?
3-Not once in the bible did Jesus or any of the new testament writers ever claim that Jesus fulfilled any parts of the 70 weeks. This would not be missed and if it was Jesus it would prove who Jesus is to the Jews Especially in the book of Matthew. Thus Jesus is not either of the anointed ones in the prophecy of the 70 weeks.
Is there any Scripture that would affirm that actions such as "resisting and defeating Antiochus Epiphanies and rededicating the temple sacrifice" would be able to "make reconciliation for iniquity"?
Scripture doesn't say "obtain reconciliation for iniquity".
It says "make reconciliation for iniquity".
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