Daniel Chapter 2

[Marty fox]

Would you mind discussing your selection of the 4 kingdoms in the Chapter 2 metal man image?

Why did you split up the second kingdom of the Medes-Persia into two?

Why not Rome for the 4th kingdom? This is indeed the time / kingdom when the Messiah would arrive and the 70 weeks of years prophecy would end. So much of the later chapters included actors / events that took place during the Roman Empire.

Look forward to your thoughts!

I split them up because the Persian empire concurred the Mendes empire. Daniel and Israel were under the Babylonians the Mendes the Persians and then Greece. King Nebuchadnezzar, Darius the Mede and King Cyrus are also mentioned separately in the book of Daniel the king of Greece isn't mentioned yet because he didn't live in Daniels day.

Rome is never mentioned in the book of Daniel but Babylon the Medes the Persians are but then in Daniel Chapter 10 the angle tells Daniel that the King of Greece would come.

There is also a bear beast mentioned in Daniel the second beast that comes before the third beast a leopard beast which represented Persia.

I see a different view as you of the 70 weeks but that's a whole another topic.

 

[CTK]

I split them up because the Persian empire concurred the Mendes empire. Daniel and Israel were under the Babylonians the Mendes the Persians and then Greece. King Nebuchadnezzar, Darius the Mede and King Cyrus are also mentioned separately in the book of Daniel the king of Greece isn't mentioned yet because he didn't live in Daniels day.

Rome is never mentioned in the book of Daniel but Babylon the Medes the Persians are but then in Daniel Chapter 10 the angle tells Daniel that the King of Greece would come.

There is also a bear beast mentioned in Daniel the second beast that comes before the third beast a leopard beast which represented Persia.

I see a different view as you of the 70 weeks but that's a whole another topic.

Didn't the Medes-Persia kingdom conquer Babylon - the second kingdom? Did Greece conquer the second kingdom?
If we look in Chapter 8, Gabriel identifies the second kingdom as a single animal - that of a ram with 2 horns. Those 2 horns represent Darius and Cyrus. The other animal in Chapter 8 is the he-goat with 1 horn, representing Alexander of Greece.

You mention the second beast is a bear, and he comes after Babylon. But the third beast in Chapter 7 is symbolized by a leopard having wings (denoting speed - symbolizing Alexander using speed to conquer his enemies) and 4 heads on the leopard - represents the 4 generals that will take over after the death of Alexander.

Rome is indeed not mentioned by name, but they are the only ones who made their weapons of iron and the only kingdom that was in place during the time of the Messiah.

If you would like to discuss this, fine, if not, no problem...

 

[Marty fox]

Didn't the Medes-Persia kingdom conquer Babylon - the second kingdom? Did Greece conquer the second kingdom?
If we look in Chapter 8, Gabriel identifies the second kingdom as a single animal - that of a ram with 2 horns. Those 2 horns represent Darius and Cyrus. The other animal in Chapter 8 is the he-goat with 1 horn, representing Alexander of Greece.

You mention the second beast is a bear, and he comes after Babylon. But the third beast in Chapter 7 is symbolized by a leopard having wings (denoting speed - symbolizing Alexander using speed to conquer his enemies) and 4 heads on the leopard - represents the 4 generals that will take over after the death of Alexander.

Rome is indeed not mentioned by name, but they are the only ones who made their weapons of iron and the only kingdom that was in place during the time of the Messiah.

If you would like to discuss this, fine, if not, no problem...

Didn't the Medes-Persia kingdom conquer Babylon - the second kingdom? Did Greece conquer the second kingdom?
If we look in Chapter 8, Gabriel identifies the second kingdom as a single animal - that of a ram with 2 horns. Those 2 horns represent Darius and Cyrus. The other animal in Chapter 8 is the he-goat with 1 horn, representing Alexander of Greece.

You mention the second beast is a bear, and he comes after Babylon. But the third beast in Chapter 7 is symbolized by a leopard having wings (denoting speed - symbolizing Alexander using speed to conquer his enemies) and 4 heads on the leopard - represents the 4 generals that will take over after the death of Alexander.

Rome is indeed not mentioned by name, but they are the only ones who made their weapons of iron and the only kingdom that was in place during the time of the Messiah.

If you would like to discuss this, fine, if not, no problem...

I don't think that it is in the time of Jesus it doesn't need to be it and in Daniel 8 it shows that it was before Jesus' time.

Daniel 8 is a different vision with a different perspective. It a more Indepth vision showing how the empires in Daniel 2 were defeated. It shows Media and Persia together as one kingdom but Daniel 2 shows that Persia concurred Media.

 

[CTK]

I don't think that it is in the time of Jesus it doesn't need to be it and in Daniel 8 it shows that it was before Jesus' time.

Daniel 8 is a different vision with a different perspective. It a more Indepth vision showing how the empires in Daniel 2 were defeated. It shows Media and Persia together as one kingdom but Daniel 2 shows that Persia concurred Media.

Ok and thank you for your interpretations! If you do not mind.... I find the first introduction to the 4 kingdoms are in Chapter 2, and the Medes-Persian (combined) kingdom is identified.....Yes, the Persians were the stronger of the two, but when they conquered Babylon, they were already one kingdom. But, also, regarding the 4th kingdom... I do believe it is Rome (for many reasons)... the symbolism of iron, the manner they conquered the world, the fact they were in power when the 70 weeks of years prophecy would come to an end (457 BC to 33/34 AD), the Messiah would arrive when Rome ruled over Israel and their participation in His crucifixion... so many more.

Thanks again for your thoughts....

 

[Marty fox]

Ok and thank you for your interpretations! If you do not mind.... I find the first introduction to the 4 kingdoms are in Chapter 2, and the Medes-Persian (combined) kingdom is identified.....Yes, the Persians were the stronger of the two, but when they conquered Babylon, they were already one kingdom. But, also, regarding the 4th kingdom... I do believe it is Rome (for many reasons)... the symbolism of iron, the manner they conquered the world, the fact they were in power when the 70 weeks of years prophecy would come to an end (457 BC to 33/34 AD), the Messiah would arrive when Rome ruled over Israel and their participation in His crucifixion... so many more.

Thanks again for your thoughts....

Your welcome and thanks.

I don't think that it matters when the Persians concurred Babylon because it doesn't matter in Daniel 2. Daniel 2 is just showing who concurred who in history its nothing to do with Israel at that point.

I also see a different view of the 70 weeks than you do I see Daniel as a book contained on its own

 

[CTK]

Your welcome and thanks.

I don't think that it matters when the Persians concurred Babylon because it doesn't matter in Daniel 2. Daniel 2 is just showing who concurred who in history its nothing to do with Israel at that point.

I also see a different view of the 70 weeks than you do I see Daniel as a book contained on its own

If you do not mind, I think it is important since God is revealing His plan of restoration and salvation for the Jews and ultimately mankind. The second kingdom would conquer Babylon at the time the 70 years exile was coming to an end. I believe He is showing us His plan as the Jewds move through each of the 4 kingdoms. The kingdoms are not the story, but as the Jews move from exile in Babylon until the coming of the Messiah in the last week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy, they provide quite a bit of prophetic information. Each kingdom has its own God given mission and purpose. The entire plan is revealed from 606 BC (time of exile in Babylon) until the cross - 3.5 years before the end of the 70th week of the prohecy. Meaning, we should not focus on the 4 kingdoms, their kings and their conflicts, but look for how God will reveal His prophecies about His plan of salvation through the time of these 4 kingdoms.

Now, you have mentioned twice that you have a different interpretation of the 70 weeks of years prophecy, and I would like to hear your interpretation. As you know, there are at least two major interpretations - a preterist and a futurist view, however, even within their own camps there is no consensus. So, please offer your thoughts.... thanks.

 

[Marty fox]

If you do not mind, I think it is important since God is revealing His plan of restoration and salvation for the Jews and ultimately mankind. The second kingdom would conquer Babylon at the time the 70 years exile was coming to an end. I believe He is showing us His plan as the Jewds move through each of the 4 kingdoms. The kingdoms are not the story, but as the Jews move from exile in Babylon until the coming of the Messiah in the last week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy, they provide quite a bit of prophetic information. Each kingdom has its own God given mission and purpose. The entire plan is revealed from 606 BC (time of exile in Babylon) until the cross - 3.5 years before the end of the 70th week of the prohecy. Meaning, we should not focus on the 4 kingdoms, their kings and their conflicts, but look for how God will reveal His prophecies about His plan of salvation through the time of these 4 kingdoms.

Now, you have mentioned twice that you have a different interpretation of the 70 weeks of years prophecy, and I would like to hear your interpretation. As you know, there are at least two major interpretations - a preterist and a futurist view, however, even within their own camps there is no consensus. So, please offer your thoughts.... thanks.

Sure here you go thanks for the interest but the Babylonian captivity still had 25 years left when Darius took over.

The vision of the angle Gabriel and the prophecy of the 70 weeks were an answer to Daniels prayer in Daniel 9:4-19. Daniels is praying to God and asking for mercy as he knew that the prophet Jeremiah had prophesied that the captivity would last for 70 years. The law of Moses states that they need to repent and turn back to God but the 70 years was almost up and the Jews were still not repenting. We see in the verses below that Daniel is pleading to God for mercy.

Daniel 9:17-19
17 “Now, our God, hear the prayers and petitions of your servant. For your sake, Lord, look with favor on your desolate sanctuary. 18 Give ear, our God, and hear; open your eyes and see the desolation of the city that bears your Name. We do not make requests of you because we are righteous, but because of your great mercy. 19 Lord, listen! Lord, forgive! Lord, hear and act! For your sake, my God, do not delay, because your city and your people bear your Name.”

The prophecy given by the angel Gabriel

Daniel 9:24-27
24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. 25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

The 70 years would become 70 weeks of years of foreign control. The Jews would go back and rebuild Jerusalem but not as free people but under foreign control.​

The 70 weeks are 490 years of prophecy.

The command by the angel Gabriel is to know and understand the prophecy. The decree (the word to go and rebuild Jerusalem) would trigger the understanding of the time line of the vision. Thus the decree of king Cyrus is the key to know and understand the 70 weeks. The decree of king Cyrus gives us a concrete date and point in time of the 70 weeks.

Below are the time lines of each set of weeks

605 B.C. The start of the 70 weeks Daniel and the Jews are taken into captivity. (time goes backwards from the time of Daniel vision)

587 B.C. Jerusalem is destroyed by Babylon the start of the 7 weeks (runs parallel to some of the 62 weeks)

170/1 B.C. Onias 3rd is murdered (cut off and has nothing) the second anointed one the last of the Zadokite priesthood which was the start of the 70th week.

538 B.C. King Cyrus issues a decree to go and rebuild Jerusalem and Joshua (the first anointed one who was to come) goes back to rebuild Jerusalem. This is the end of the 7 weeks which was 49 years after 587 B.C. when Jerusalem was destroyed.


167 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanies 4th desecrates the temple ½ way through the 70th week. The abomination that caused desolation.

164/3 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanies 4th dies and the temple sacrifice is reestablished the end of the 70th week. (the end is poured out on him)

War continued during and until the end of the 70th week

The purposes of the 70 weeks in Daniel 9:24 were fulfilled by the Jews who remained loyal to God and resisted apostasy.

605 B.C.-171 B.C. 62 weeks or 434 years

587 B.C.-538 B.C. 7 weeks or 49 years

170/1 B.C.-164/3 B.C. 70th week or 7 years

Some versions of the bible use the word Messiah instead of the anointed one but that was a mistake and not the original meaning.

Below are three main points to show that Jesus wasn't any part of the prophecy of the 70 weeks


1-Some people think that the 70 weeks start in 445 BC, but this is 160 years after 605 B.C. when the Jews were taken into captivity. If this was the case then the curse of the covenant would not come into effect on those who did not repent-in 535 B.C. when Jeremiah's 70 years prophecy expired. Instead it would come their grandchildren and great grandchildren which would violate the principal of the Law of Moses that children pay the price for their parents and grandparents sins.


2-It says that the anointed one will come after 62 & 7 weeks but he is cut off after 62 weeks. How can the anointed one if it is one person come 49 years after he is cut off? This proves that it is two different people. If it is Jesus how could He come 49 years after he dies?


3-Not once in the bible did Jesus or any of the new testament writers ever claim that Jesus fulfilled any parts of the 70 weeks. This would not be missed and if it was Jesus it would prove who Jesus is to the Jews Especially in the book of Matthew. Thus Jesus is not either of the anointed ones in the prophecy of the 70 weeks.

This time line takes away the possibility of a future 70th week or even a future seven year tribulation.

Now ask yourself if you were a Jew living in the time of the Maccabees who would you of thought Daniel was writing the 70 weeks about?

 

[CTK]

Sure here you go thanks for the interest but the Babylonian captivity still had 25 years left when Darius took over.

The vision of the angle Gabriel and the prophecy of the 70 weeks were an answer to Daniels prayer in Daniel 9:4-19. Daniels is praying to God and asking for mercy as he knew that the prophet Jeremiah had prophesied that the captivity would last for 70 years. The law of Moses states that they need to repent and turn back to God but the 70 years was almost up and the Jews were still not repenting. We see in the verses below that Daniel is pleading to God for mercy.

Daniel 9:17-19
17 “Now, our God, hear the prayers and petitions of your servant. For your sake, Lord, look with favor on your desolate sanctuary. 18 Give ear, our God, and hear; open your eyes and see the desolation of the city that bears your Name. We do not make requests of you because we are righteous, but because of your great mercy. 19 Lord, listen! Lord, forgive! Lord, hear and act! For your sake, my God, do not delay, because your city and your people bear your Name.”

The prophecy given by the angel Gabriel

Daniel 9:24-27
24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. 25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

The 70 years would become 70 weeks of years of foreign control. The Jews would go back and rebuild Jerusalem but not as free people but under foreign control.​

The 70 weeks are 490 years of prophecy.

The command by the angel Gabriel is to know and understand the prophecy. The decree (the word to go and rebuild Jerusalem) would trigger the understanding of the time line of the vision. Thus the decree of king Cyrus is the key to know and understand the 70 weeks. The decree of king Cyrus gives us a concrete date and point in time of the 70 weeks.

Below are the time lines of each set of weeks

605 B.C. The start of the 70 weeks Daniel and the Jews are taken into captivity. (time goes backwards from the time of Daniel vision)

587 B.C. Jerusalem is destroyed by Babylon the start of the 7 weeks (runs parallel to some of the 62 weeks)

170/1 B.C. Onias 3rd is murdered (cut off and has nothing) the second anointed one the last of the Zadokite priesthood which was the start of the 70th week.

538 B.C. King Cyrus issues a decree to go and rebuild Jerusalem and Joshua (the first anointed one who was to come) goes back to rebuild Jerusalem. This is the end of the 7 weeks which was 49 years after 587 B.C. when Jerusalem was destroyed.


167 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanies 4th desecrates the temple ½ way through the 70th week. The abomination that caused desolation.

164/3 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanies 4th dies and the temple sacrifice is reestablished the end of the 70th week. (the end is poured out on him)

War continued during and until the end of the 70th week

The purposes of the 70 weeks in Daniel 9:24 were fulfilled by the Jews who remained loyal to God and resisted apostasy.

605 B.C.-171 B.C. 62 weeks or 434 years

587 B.C.-538 B.C. 7 weeks or 49 years

170/1 B.C.-164/3 B.C. 70th week or 7 years

Some versions of the bible use the word Messiah instead of the anointed one but that was a mistake and not the original meaning.

Below are three main points to show that Jesus wasn't any part of the prophecy of the 70 weeks


1-Some people think that the 70 weeks start in 445 BC, but this is 160 years after 605 B.C. when the Jews were taken into captivity. If this was the case then the curse of the covenant would not come into effect on those who did not repent-in 535 B.C. when Jeremiah's 70 years prophecy expired. Instead it would come their grandchildren and great grandchildren which would violate the principal of the Law of Moses that children pay the price for their parents and grandparents sins.


2-It says that the anointed one will come after 62 & 7 weeks but he is cut off after 62 weeks. How can the anointed one if it is one person come 49 years after he is cut off? This proves that it is two different people. If it is Jesus how could He come 49 years after he dies?


3-Not once in the bible did Jesus or any of the new testament writers ever claim that Jesus fulfilled any parts of the 70 weeks. This would not be missed and if it was Jesus it would prove who Jesus is to the Jews Especially in the book of Matthew. Thus Jesus is not either of the anointed ones in the prophecy of the 70 weeks.

This time line takes away the possibility of a future 70th week or even a future seven year tribulation.

Now ask yourself if you were a Jew living in the time of the Maccabees who would you of thought Daniel was writing the 70 weeks about?

Marty, thanks for your interpretation. I have not read anyone's interpretation where the 70 weeks of years prophecy began with Cyrus. It is obvious you put some thought and effort into this.....

Now, I think it is safe to say that MOST people will respond to you with some level of incredulity and claim you are out there on an island by yourself. I can say that because I have had many similar responses to my interpretations. It is all good. But, as you mentioned, our interpretations do not agree with each other.
,
So, if you are open to discussing this topic or feel you have been down that road too many times to travel it again, we can slowly go down the 70 weeks of years prophecy and find out just when we depart in our interpretations and why.

If you have an interest in doing this, I will open at what I believe to be the beginning of the prophecy... and this should easily give us the place of departure....

I have found there are a few interpretations on the start of the 490 years prophecy:

1) Where the prophecy begins at 457 BC,
2) Where it begins in 445 BC,
3) And yours, where it begins in 538 BC (I hope I have that right), when the Jews are allowed to return home to Jerusalem.

And, each interpreter is quite confident in their respective interpretations. So, what is the beginning and why should it be the beginning? it took me awhile to determine this... even though this seems to be a relatively simple choice - now among three options. I believe there is only one answer and it is confirmed as follows:

1) the 3rd Great Jubilee Cycle ended exactly in 457 BC,
2) the 70 weeks of years prophecy began in exactly 457 BC,
3) the start of the 4th Great Jubilee Cycle began in 457 BC,
4) the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy was scheduled to end in 33/34 AD,
5) the beginning of the 70 year exile to Babylon began in 606 BC,
6) the end of the 70 year exile was on 538 BC,
7) the first timed section of the 490 years or the first 7 weeks (49 years) occurred in 408 BC.
8) In 444/45 BC, Ezra would be found reading of the law ( Bood of Moses) in the month of Tishri. This would occur exactly 14 years after their return to Jerusalem (457 - 444). This reading was on the second 7 year Sabbatical cycle after their return. Thus , if we add back the two 7 year Sabbatical cycles, it brings us back to the start of the 4th Great Jubilee Cycle.

If you agree with this approach, then the beginning of the 70 weeks of years prophecy began in 457 BC, and would conclude in the last week of the 70 weeks when the Messiah would arrive on the first day of the last week (or 7 years), but would be crucified exactly 3.5 years of the last week of the prophecy.

let me know what you think...

 

[Ronald D Milam]

With the exception of Chapter 11, Chapter 2 might just be the most difficult chapter to unpack and interpret in the Book of Daniel. So, does anyone have a particular verse or series of verses that just seem to defy understanding.... they would like to throw out to the community?

I have done an Exegesis for Dan. 11 & 12 where I explain every verse and all the players in each verse.

Dan. 2 is not that difficult once you understand the SEED mentioned in vs. 2 is just that. Daniel is merely saying try as they might, these seeds of men will never be allowed to come together as one again until the very end, that is why it says they will not cling together.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

So, it was only Iron as Rome, then it was Iron & Clay which of course does not fit together very well, so they stay separate for almost 1600 years, even longer really because when God forsook Israel, they really were not a nation, so they were nothing to God for 2000 years so there could be no Beast over them in reality. But.........

Whereas you saw the iron and clay mixed, they (The Seeds of these Europeans) will not mix very well at all even though they try, we had the British Empire, France, Spain and many smaller clans etc. etc. etc. In other words via Royal Marriage they kept trying to unify Europe, even Hitler tried, but to no avail. Only when Israel was reborn could the E.U. reunify again.

 

[CTK]

I have done an Exegesis for San. 11 & 12 where I explain every verse and all the players in each verse.

Dan. 2 is not that difficult once you understand the SEED mentioned in vs. 2 is just that. Daniel is merely saying try as they might, these seeds of me will never be allowed to come together as one again until the very end, that is why t says they will not cling together.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

So, it was only Iron as Rome, then it was Iron & Clay which of course does not fit together very well, say the stay separate for almost 1600 years, even longer really because when God forsook Israel, they really were not a nation, so they were nothing to God for 2000 years so there could be no Beast over them in reality. But.........

Whereas you saw the iron and clay mixed, they (The Seeds of these Europeans) will not mix very well at all even though they try, we had the British Empire, France, Spain and many smaller clans etc. etc. etc. In other words via Royal Marriage they kept trying to unify Europe, even Hitler tried, but to no avail. Only when Israel as reborn could the E.U. reunify again.

Thank you for your comments! I do agree with your approach... but I have found the devil does lie in the details. Would you mind telling me your interpretation of verses 2:34 and 2:35? After this, the next difficult verses are 2:41-43.

 

[Marty fox]

Marty, thanks for your interpretation. I have not read anyone's interpretation where the 70 weeks of years prophecy began with Cyrus. It is obvious you put some thought and effort into this.....

Now, I think it is safe to say that MOST people will respond to you with some level of incredulity and claim you are out there on an island by yourself. I can say that because I have had many similar responses to my interpretations. It is all good. But, as you mentioned, our interpretations do not agree with each other.
,
So, if you are open to discussing this topic or feel you have been down that road too many times to travel it again, we can slowly go down the 70 weeks of years prophecy and find out just when we depart in our interpretations and why.

If you have an interest in doing this, I will open at what I believe to be the beginning of the prophecy... and this should easily give us the place of departure....

I have found there are a few interpretations on the start of the 490 years prophecy:

1) Where the prophecy begins at 457 BC,
2) Where it begins in 445 BC,
3) And yours, where it begins in 538 BC (I hope I have that right), when the Jews are allowed to return home to Jerusalem.

And, each interpreter is quite confident in their respective interpretations. So, what is the beginning and why should it be the beginning? it took me awhile to determine this... even though this seems to be a relatively simple choice - now among three options. I believe there is only one answer and it is confirmed as follows:

1) the 3rd Great Jubilee Cycle ended exactly in 457 BC,
2) the 70 weeks of years prophecy began in exactly 457 BC,
3) the start of the 4th Great Jubilee Cycle began in 457 BC,
4) the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy was scheduled to end in 33/34 AD,
5) the beginning of the 70 year exile to Babylon began in 606 BC,
6) the end of the 70 year exile was on 538 BC,
7) the first timed section of the 490 years or the first 7 weeks (49 years) occurred in 408 BC.
8) In 444/45 BC, Ezra would be found reading of the law ( Bood of Moses) in the month of Tishri. This would occur exactly 14 years after their return to Jerusalem (457 - 444). This reading was on the second 7 year Sabbatical cycle after their return. Thus , if we add back the two 7 year Sabbatical cycles, it brings us back to the start of the 4th Great Jubilee Cycle.

If you agree with this approach, then the beginning of the 70 weeks of years prophecy began in 457 BC, and would conclude in the last week of the 70 weeks when the Messiah would arrive on the first day of the last week (or 7 years), but would be crucified exactly 3.5 years of the last week of the prophecy.

let me know what you think...

Hello again, I'm not the only one who believes it this way I learned it from Christian Jews and other people have written in books about it.

Maybe re-read my view I have the 70 weeks starting in 605 B.C. not 538 B.C.

I'll repost a few paragraphs below to show my reasoning

The vision of the angle Gabriel and the prophecy of the 70 weeks were an answer to Daniels prayer in Daniel 9:4-19. Daniels is praying to God and asking for mercy as he knew that the prophet Jeremiah had prophesied that the captivity would last for 70 years. The law of Moses states that they need to repent and turn back to God but the 70 years was almost up and the Jews were still not repenting. We see in the verses below that Daniel is pleading to God for mercy.

Below are three main points to show that Jesus wasn't any part of the prophecy of the 70 weeks


1-Some people think that the 70 weeks start in 445 BC, but this is 160 years after 605 B.C. when the Jews were taken into captivity. If this was the case then the curse of the covenant would not come into effect on those who did not repent-in 535 B.C. when Jeremiah's 70 years prophecy expired. Instead it would come their grandchildren and great grandchildren which would violate the principal of the Law of Moses that children pay the price for their parents and grandparents sins.


2-It says that the anointed one will come after 62 & 7 weeks but he is cut off after 62 weeks. How can the anointed one if it is one person come 49 years after he is cut off? This proves that it is two different people. If it is Jesus how could He come 49 years after he dies?


3-Not once in the bible did Jesus or any of the new testament writers ever claim that Jesus fulfilled any parts of the 70 weeks. This would not be missed and if it was Jesus it would prove who Jesus is to the Jews Especially in the book of Matthew. Thus Jesus is not either of the anointed ones in the prophecy of the 70 weeks.

Now ask yourself if you were a Jew living in the time of the Maccabees who would you of thought Daniel was writing the 70 weeks about?

 

[CTK]

Hello again, I'm not the only one who believes it this way I learned it from Christian Jews and other people have written in books about it.

Maybe re-read my view I have the 70 weeks starting in 605 B.C. not 538 B.C.

I'll repost a few paragraphs below to show my reasoning

The vision of the angle Gabriel and the prophecy of the 70 weeks were an answer to Daniels prayer in Daniel 9:4-19. Daniels is praying to God and asking for mercy as he knew that the prophet Jeremiah had prophesied that the captivity would last for 70 years. The law of Moses states that they need to repent and turn back to God but the 70 years was almost up and the Jews were still not repenting. We see in the verses below that Daniel is pleading to God for mercy.

Below are three main points to show that Jesus wasn't any part of the prophecy of the 70 weeks


1-Some people think that the 70 weeks start in 445 BC, but this is 160 years after 605 B.C. when the Jews were taken into captivity. If this was the case then the curse of the covenant would not come into effect on those who did not repent-in 535 B.C. when Jeremiah's 70 years prophecy expired. Instead it would come their grandchildren and great grandchildren which would violate the principal of the Law of Moses that children pay the price for their parents and grandparents sins.


2-It says that the anointed one will come after 62 & 7 weeks but he is cut off after 62 weeks. How can the anointed one if it is one person come 49 years after he is cut off? This proves that it is two different people. If it is Jesus how could He come 49 years after he dies?


3-Not once in the bible did Jesus or any of the new testament writers ever claim that Jesus fulfilled any parts of the 70 weeks. This would not be missed and if it was Jesus it would prove who Jesus is to the Jews Especially in the book of Matthew. Thus Jesus is not either of the anointed ones in the prophecy of the 70 weeks.

Now ask yourself if you were a Jew living in the time of the Maccabees who would you have thought Daniel was writing the 70 weeks about?

Thank you… and yes I read that in your earlier post.

But rather than the two of us simply sharing our very different interpretations, I suggested we might go far back to the beginning of things… the beginning of the 4th Great Jubilee when all of this began (imo). That is why I provided the list of events… because that is how I arrived at my interpretations.

I understand your interpretations, but I am attempting to learn why and how you came to these interpretations. And I am convinced that we will have to identify the starting date for the 70 weeks of years prophecy before we can learn of its true significance.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[Marty fox]

Thank you… and yes I read that in your earlier post.

But rather than the two of us simply sharing our very different interpretations, I suggested we might go far back to the beginning of things… the beginning of the 4th Great Jubilee when all of this began (imo). That is why I provided the list of events… because that is how I arrived at my interpretations.

I understand your interpretations, but I am attempting to learn why and how you came to these interpretations. And I am convinced that we will have to identify the starting date for the 70 weeks of years prophecy before we can learn of its true significance.

Hope this makes sense.

The reason I believe that way is the reason for the 70 weeks. The reason for Gabriel being sent to Daniel to tell him about the 70 weeks was Daniels prayer in the first section of Daniel chapter 9.

Daniel knew that the 70 years prophecy was coming to an end and that the Jews weren't repenting thus Daniel was pleading to God for mercy on behalf of his people so God showed mercy and turned the 70 years to 70 weeks of years.

 

[CTK]

The reason I believe that way is the reason for the 70 weeks. The reason for Gabriel being sent to Daniel to tell him about the 70 weeks was Daniels prayer in the first section of Daniel chapter 9.

Daniel knew that the 70 years prophecy was coming to an end and that the Jews weren't repenting thus Daniel was pleading to God for mercy on behalf of his people so God showed mercy and turned the 70 years to 70 weeks of years.

Thank you and I agree, but I am attempting to understand how you arrived at your timeline- the starting point for the beginning of the prophecy. That is why I provided you with the list of events that supported my interpretation on when it began in 457 BC.

As I mentioned, there are at least 3 different interpretations on when the prophecy began and just who issued the decree- and they all contend they have the right starting date. Which is why I had to study this for myself using their interpretations as a good starting point.

And let me ask you another question that I would have hoped we would eventually get to… If you were to get a clean sheet of paper - forget whatever interpretations you may have heard or learned, if you were to read just Chapter 9, do you think you could see how these verses represent the Jews restoration back to Jerusalem, and more importantly, they mirror the actual events that took place during the last week of the prophecy? In other words, can you see that Jesus arrived and was crucified in the “middle of the week”? Did He not confirm the Covenant through His sacrifice on the cross? Didn’t He do away with any further need for animal sacrifices and offerings? Wasn’t He anointed by His Father in the Jordan on the first day of His ministry? Didn’t He die for “many”?
Were His people “made desolate” for over 2000 years because they rejected and crucified their Messiah? Wasn’t the city and the sanctuary completely destroyed as a result of this? Didn’t He arrive exactly on the first day of the last week of the prophecy (AFTER 7 and 62 weeks)? Wasn’t He “cut off” AFTER the 62 week section of time was completed? Didn’t ALL of these take place DURING the 4th beast kingdom of pagan Rome?

Sorry for writing all of that out, but they all speak clearly of the Messiah. Daniel is written for the Jews and His city and the most important event in the history of mankind- the arrival of God on earth. The Book of Daniel has largely been treated and interpreted as a history book that we get excited when we seem to match the verses in Daniel to our history books.

God has simply selected those 4 kingdoms, their kings, their conflicts and their timing to place His messianic prophecies within them as He brings His people back through them after their time in exile.

Look forward to your thoughts…

 

[Marty fox]

Marty, thanks for your interpretation. I have not read anyone's interpretation where the 70 weeks of years prophecy began with Cyrus. It is obvious you put some thought and effort into this.....

Now, I think it is safe to say that MOST people will respond to you with some level of incredulity and claim you are out there on an island by yourself. I can say that because I have had many similar responses to my interpretations. It is all good. But, as you mentioned, our interpretations do not agree with each other.
,
So, if you are open to discussing this topic or feel you have been down that road too many times to travel it again, we can slowly go down the 70 weeks of years prophecy and find out just when we depart in our interpretations and why.

If you have an interest in doing this, I will open at what I believe to be the beginning of the prophecy... and this should easily give us the place of departure....

I have found there are a few interpretations on the start of the 490 years prophecy:

1) Where the prophecy begins at 457 BC,
2) Where it begins in 445 BC,
3) And yours, where it begins in 538 BC (I hope I have that right), when the Jews are allowed to return home to Jerusalem.

And, each interpreter is quite confident in their respective interpretations. So, what is the beginning and why should it be the beginning? it took me awhile to determine this... even though this seems to be a relatively simple choice - now among three options. I believe there is only one answer and it is confirmed as follows:

1) the 3rd Great Jubilee Cycle ended exactly in 457 BC,
2) the 70 weeks of years prophecy began in exactly 457 BC,
3) the start of the 4th Great Jubilee Cycle began in 457 BC,
4) the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy was scheduled to end in 33/34 AD,
5) the beginning of the 70 year exile to Babylon began in 606 BC,
6) the end of the 70 year exile was on 538 BC,
7) the first timed section of the 490 years or the first 7 weeks (49 years) occurred in 408 BC.
8) In 444/45 BC, Ezra would be found reading of the law ( Bood of Moses) in the month of Tishri. This would occur exactly 14 years after their return to Jerusalem (457 - 444). This reading was on the second 7 year Sabbatical cycle after their return. Thus , if we add back the two 7 year Sabbatical cycles, it brings us back to the start of the 4th Great Jubilee Cycle.

If you agree with this approach, then the beginning of the 70 weeks of years prophecy began in 457 BC, and would conclude in the last week of the 70 weeks when the Messiah would arrive on the first day of the last week (or 7 years), but would be crucified exactly 3.5 years of the last week of the prophecy.

let me know what you think...

But you are claiming the dates of the start and finish of the 70 weeks as a fact which I disagree with. I'm basing my view off of scripture and history but before we go further my three points need to be addresses as that's a big reason why I believe in my view.

I'll repost them here

1-Some people think that the 70 weeks start in 445 BC, but this is 160 years after 605 B.C. when the Jews were taken into captivity. If this was the case then the curse of the covenant would not come into effect on those who did not repent-in 535 B.C. when Jeremiah's 70 years prophecy expired. Instead it would come their grandchildren and great grandchildren which would violate the principal of the Law of Moses that children pay the price for their parents and grandparents sins.


2-It says that the anointed one will come after 62 & 7 weeks but he is cut off after 62 weeks. How can the anointed one if it is one person come 49 years after he is cut off? This proves that it is two different people. If it is Jesus how could He come 49 years after he dies?


3-Not once in the bible did Jesus or any of the new testament writers ever claim that Jesus fulfilled any parts of the 70 weeks. This would not be missed and if it was Jesus it would prove who Jesus is to the Jews Especially in the book of Matthew. Thus Jesus is not either of the anointed ones in the prophecy of the 70 weeks.

 

[CTK]

But you are claiming the dates of the start and finish of the 70 weeks as a fact which I disagree with. I'm basing my view off of scripture and history but before we go further my three points need to be addresses as that's a big reason why I believe in my view.

I'll repost them here

1-Some people think that the 70 weeks start in 445 BC, but this is 160 years after 605 B.C. when the Jews were taken into captivity. If this was the case then the curse of the covenant would not come into effect on those who did not repent-in 535 B.C. when Jeremiah's 70 years prophecy expired. Instead it would come their grandchildren and great grandchildren which would violate the principal of the Law of Moses that children pay the price for their parents and grandparents sins.


2-It says that the anointed one will come after 62 & 7 weeks but he is cut off after 62 weeks. How can the anointed one if it is one person come 49 years after he is cut off? This proves that it is two different people. If it is Jesus how could He come 49 years after he dies?


3-Not once in the bible did Jesus or any of the new testament writers ever claim that Jesus fulfilled any parts of the 70 weeks. This would not be missed and if it was Jesus it would prove who Jesus is to the Jews Especially in the book of Matthew. Thus Jesus is not either of the anointed ones in the prophecy of the 70 weeks.

Thanks again for your response. First, I think it is safe to say that both of us are following Scripture - we have access to the exact same verses but we are interpreting them differently... and that is no problem because this is what we are trying to do - understand each other's reasoning or basis for those conclusions or interpretations. If you do not mind, I will respond to this post later on this evening... I have to get some other things accomplished.... thanks again for your thoughts.

 

[covenantee]

Not once in the bible did Jesus or any of the new testament writers ever claim that Jesus fulfilled any parts of the 70 weeks.

Do your 70 weeks include Daniel 9:24? Who other than Jesus could have fulfilled what is in Daniel 9:24?

E.g. who other than Jesus could "make reconciliation for iniquity"?

Those fulfillments are self-evident.

They require no claims.

 

[CTK]

Do your 70 weeks include Daniel 9:24? Who other than Jesus could have fulfilled what is in Daniel 9:24?

E.g. who other than Jesus could "make reconciliation for iniquity"?

Those fulfillments are self-evident.

They require no claims.

Marty, gotta agree here. Daniel is about the Messiah, not a recounting of some characters in our history books.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Daniel is an interesting book most especially because it takes us from the Babylonian Empire where Daniel was in exile with his people, and on through a march of world powers down to “the time of the end“.

Those world powers held dominion over God’s people.
1) Babylon (head of gold)
2) Medo-Persia ( breast and arms of silver)
3) Greece (Abdomen and thighs of copper)
4) Rome (legs of iron)
5) Britain (Feet of iron and clay)
6) Anglo-America in “the time of the end”. (Toes also of iron and clay)

Daniel 2: 41-44
“And just as you saw the feet and the toes to be partly of clay of a potter and partly of iron, the kingdom will be divided, but some of the hardness of iron will be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with soft clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom will be partly strong and partly fragile. 43 Just as you saw iron mixed with soft clay, they will be mixed with the people; but they will not stick together, one to the other, just as iron does not mix with clay.

44 “In the days of those [last] kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever”…

We are living in the “time of the end” right now, where the power of the people in nations with democratic rule, undermine the power of the governments. It’s the iron and clay not mixing and causing divisions among mankind……nothing divides people more than religion and politics….an ugly alliance, seen in many nations that claim to be Christian.
In the near future, the coming of God’s Kingdom will crush all corrupt earthly governments out of existence and replace them as mankind’s only rightful ruling authority.

 

[Marty fox]

Do your 70 weeks include Daniel 9:24? Who other than Jesus could have fulfilled what is in Daniel 9:24?

E.g. who other than Jesus could "make reconciliation for iniquity"?

Those fulfillments are self-evident.

They require no claims.

Of course it includes verse 24 here it is again

24 “Seventy ‘sevens’[c] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish[d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.[e]

Of course only Jesus make reconciliation for iniquity but read what the verse actually says. "Seventy ‘sevens’[c] are decreed for your people and your holy city too"

Its for the Jews to do this and they did it because they were justified by faith through their actions. They put an end to transgressions and sin and they fulfilled the prophecies of the 70 weeks by resisted and defeating Antiochus Epiphanies and rededicating the temple sacrifice.

Now according to your argument this shows true because after Jesus came transgression and sin still happened and all of prophecy wasn't fulfilled. Jesus had atoned for everything but acts still had to happen.

Once again the reason for the message of the 70 weeks was the answer to Daniels prayer in the first section of Daniel chapter 9. If you were a Jew living in the time of the Maccabees who would you of thought the 70 weeks were about? This prophecy bought hope and encouragement to the Jews living in those times.

I believe that the three points at the bottom of post #31 prove the truth