Christians are not under the New Covenant

[Truther]

Can you explain what you believe about Jesus "building his own temple" when he returns to start the (1,000 yr millennial I assume?)

1. Do you mean a literal temple in Jerusalem?
2. If so, how long is Jesus going to be on earth when he returns?
3. What will he be doing during that time?
4. What about the New Covenant that Jesus instituted 2,000 years ago?
5. Who will be going to that temple?
6. Why Ezekiel's temple? (Most theologians believe that Ezekiel's temple can't be built due to insufficient details.)

1..Yes.

2...1000 years.

3...Reigning unopposed.

4...The future Millennial IS fulfilled the new covenant, which we are INCLUDED into right now in a partial, dark glass view of.(Hebrews 10:15-17)

5...The nations.

6...Most theologians are wrong. Jesus Himself will build it. They do not realize this fact.

 

[Truther]

Read it again...I explained it. It is the "church" of Acts 2 which is comprised of both Jews and Gentiles. Israel was/is the "tree" that the Gentiles have been grafted into beginning in Genesis 3 with the "promised seed."

Israel is not "national Israel." Israel is the "remnant" that has been "God's people" starting with Adam and Eve.

No, everyone is grafted into God.

 

[Moriah's Song]

which we are INCLUDED into right now in a partial, dark glass view of.(Hebrews 10:15-17)

So, you are saying that you agree with Hebrews 8:8 was fulfilled 2,000 years ago? ...

"For he finds fault with them when he says: "The days will come, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;"​

 

[Moriah's Song]

No, everyone is grafted into God.

EVERYONE?

1. You mean everyone from creation until Jesus comes?
2. Or, those who are living at the time he comes?
3. What about all those in the graves?
4. How does a person become "grafted into God?" I have never heard that before.

 

[Truther]

So, you are saying that you agree with Hebrews 8:8 was fulfilled 2,000 years ago? ...

"For he finds fault with them when he says: "The days will come, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;"​

No, Hebrews 8 is a quotation of Jer 31's future prophecy to national Israel.

We are included in Hebrews 10, in only this portion of the future prophecy....


15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.


Also...to us....(the church).

Our inclusion into their promise, not our replacement of their future promise.

I am shocked that "theologians" can go to school for 8 years and never see this.

 

[Truther]

EVERYONE?

1. You mean everyone from creation until Jesus comes?
2. Or, those who are living at the time he comes?
3. What about all those in the graves?
4. How does a person become "grafted into God?" I have never heard that before.

1...no, the elect.

2....

3....There are 2 parts of the saved resurrection. The rest of the dead will not be resurrected until the 1000 years are finished.

4...that's because folks teach we are grafted into Israel. Here is the truth...


24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree(God): how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

God is good, not Israel or the Jews.


15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

We are not in a branch of anyone, but the vine(God).

 

[amigo de christo]

No, the Lord will build His own temple as he returns to start the millennial per Ezekiel.

Even better , my friend , GOD and the lamb ARE the TEMPLE .
and we are little stones added in by faith in JESUS.
And yes indeed it shall descend upon the earth one day .
I got a name for it , LAMBSVILLE . Home of the lambs .

 

[amigo de christo]

Read it again...I explained it. It is the "church" of Acts 2 which is comprised of both Jews and Gentiles. Israel was/is the "tree" that the Gentiles have been grafted into beginning in Genesis 3 with the "promised seed."

Israel is not "national Israel." Israel is the "remnant" that has been "God's people" starting with Adam and Eve.

Who is of True israel . I tell us all its the gentiles and jews that believe IN JESUS CHRIST .
And the true Jerusalem is above . The CITY of the lambs . The gentiles by faith in JESUS have been made partakers of ISRAEL .
Truth is , not even a jew is truly of ISRAEL lest he believes in CHRIST . GODS wonderful plan .
And the temple is GOD and the lamb . Now let all that draws breath , leap up and praise the glorious LORD .

 

[Moriah's Song]

We are included in Hebrews 10, in only this portion of the future prophecy.

What portion? How can a people only be a "portion" of a promise? Isn't Jeremiah 31:31 in Hebrews 8:8 a fulfillment term because it is a "now" covenant?

 

[Truther]

Even better , my friend , GOD and the lamb ARE the TEMPLE .
and we are little stones added in by faith in JESUS.
And yes indeed it shall descend upon the earth one day .
I got a name for it , LAMBSVILLE . Home of the lambs .

Bingo!!!

 

[Truther]

What portion? How can a people only be a "portion" of a promise? Isn't Jeremiah 31:31 in Hebrews 8:8 a fulfillment term because it is a "now" covenant?

This is all we get now.....


9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away....


12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


....just a partial experience and poor vision of Jer 31.

Few healed per capita, instead of the entire world healed in the Millennial.

Etc, etc, etc...

 

[Moriah's Song]

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away....

That's a partial quotation from 1Co 13:12...

"For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood."
​

That verse is not referring to Jeremiah at all. It is a reference to a comparison of our lack of being able to completely understand what happens when us believers die in comparision to what we 'THINK' heaven will be like but then we will be able to then understand what many of those verses were that were so confusing.

 

[Truther]

That's a partial quotation from 1Co 13:12...

"For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood."
​

That verse is not referring to Jeremiah at all. It is a reference to a comparison of our lack of being able to completely understand what happens when us believers die in comparision to what we 'THINK' heaven will be like but then we will be able to then understand what many of those verses were that were so confusing.

No, it is referring to THE GIFTS and experience we are under now.

You know...the new covenant.

It is partial and vague.

The REAL experience is when the Millennial starts and that which is perfect is come.

Then all these things shall vanish away.


Referring to chapter 1....

7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, ...


Shall I show you future the benefits of the fully implemented new covenant that we are not seeing yet?

 

[Moriah's Song]

You know...the new covenant.

I disagree. Out of 13 Commentaries, not one referred to that verse concerning "the covenant." However, my RSV Bible has cross-references and it points to 1 John 3:2...

"Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is."​

Another is 1 Peter 1:4....
"and to an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

 

[amigo de christo]

Bingo!!!

Put those hands up and let the glorious LORD be praised .

 

[keithr]

since when does Israel have children who keep the commandments or have the testimony of Jesus Christ? Rev 12:17

A simple explanation of Revelation 12 (there are more complex explanations involving the Church, Papacy and the Roman empire, which I find less convincing), Revelation 12 (WEB):

(1) A great sign was seen in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.​

The woman is symbolic of Israel. Refer back to Joseph's second dream, Genesis 37:9-10 (WEB):

(9) He dreamed yet another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said, “Behold, I have dreamed yet another dream: and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars bowed down to me.”
(10) He told it to his father and to his brothers. His father rebuked him, and said to him, “What is this dream that you have dreamed? Will I and your mother and your brothers indeed come to bow ourselves down to you to the earth?”​

So the 12 stars represented the 12 tribes of Israel, and the sun and the moon represented Israel (Jacob) and his wife (Rachel). The woman in Revelation 12 is therefore symbolic of the nation of Israel.

Rev 12 (WEB):

(5) She gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron. Her child was caught up to God, and to his throne.​

The male child (of the nation of Israel) is clearly referring to the Messiah Jesus, who will during the Millennial Age rule the nations strictly, with a rod of iron, and who after his resurrection was taken up into heaven to sit at the right hand of God ("looking to Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God", Hebrews 12:2).

(6) The woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that there they may nourish her one thousand two hundred sixty days.​

The nation of Israel shortly afterwards is scattered amongst the Gentile nations.

(13) When the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.​

The dragon, symbolic of Satan, has been persecuting the nation of Israel ever since.

(17) The dragon grew angry with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep God’s commandments and hold Jesus’ testimony.​

Satan has also been persecuting Christians, the offspring of Israel (Jesus was one offspring, Christians are the rest of the offspring).

 

[Truther]

I disagree. Out of 13 Commentaries, not one referred to that verse concerning "the covenant." However, my RSV Bible has cross-references and it points to 1 John 3:2...

"Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is."​

Another is 1 Peter 1:4....
"and to an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

So, you think that partial gifts and looking through a dark glass is the equivalent to "every eye shall see Him" and 'there shall be no more war" etc?

 

[Moriah's Song]

This is all we get now.....


9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away....


12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


....just a partial experience and poor vision of Jer 31.

Few healed per capita, instead of the entire world healed in the Millennial.

Etc, etc, etc...

Your use of Jeremiah 31 was inapproprately used for a 1,000 yr millenium, a new temple with sacrifices being reinstated and Christ's return to earth to do a re-do of what was accomplished and fulfilled 2,000 years ago. So, yes, I did say that HOW you used it was inappropriate because the ONLY time Christ will return is for the resurrection on the Last Day. Dispensationalism is a heresy because it treats what Jesus did on the cross as useless and a failure. That is not the Christ I believe in. It is the Christ of John Nelson Darby's vivid imagination and Scofield's desire to profit from Darby's re-interpretation of the OT prophecies that have been fulfilled in the NT - with the exception of Isaiah's prophecy of the Day of Atonement which is of the Last Day event.

 

[Truther]

Your use of Jeremiah 31 was inapproprately used for a 1,000 yr millenium, a new temple with sacrifices being reinstated and Christ's return to earth to do a re-do of what was accomplished and fulfilled 2,000 years ago. So, yes, I did say that HOW you used it was inappropriate because the ONLY time Christ will return is for the resurrection on the Last Day. Dispensationalism is a heresy because it treats what Jesus did on the cross as useless and a failure. That is not the Christ I believe in. It is the Christ of John Nelson Darby's vivid imagination and Scofield's desire to profit from Darby's re-interpretation of the OT prophecies that have been fulfilled in the NT - with the exception of Isaiah's prophecy of the Day of Atonement which is of the Last Day event.

Dispensationalism per Darby is incorrect.

The fact is, the Law is still in effect for sinners and only the saints are free from the Law.

The only way scripturally to get free from the Law and it's judgement's is to obey Acts 2:38, then to remain free is to walk in the Spirit.

This is another fact that destroys the foundation of preterism and most of dispensationalism.

 

[theefaith]

A simple explanation of Revelation 12 (there are more complex explanations involving the Church, Papacy and the Roman empire, which I find less convincing), Revelation 12 (WEB):

(1) A great sign was seen in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.​

The woman is symbolic of Israel. Refer back to Joseph's second dream, Genesis 37:9-10 (WEB):

(9) He dreamed yet another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said, “Behold, I have dreamed yet another dream: and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars bowed down to me.”
(10) He told it to his father and to his brothers. His father rebuked him, and said to him, “What is this dream that you have dreamed? Will I and your mother and your brothers indeed come to bow ourselves down to you to the earth?”​

So the 12 stars represented the 12 tribes of Israel, and the sun and the moon represented Israel (Jacob) and his wife (Rachel). The woman in Revelation 12 is therefore symbolic of the nation of Israel.

Rev 12 (WEB):

(5) She gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron. Her child was caught up to God, and to his throne.​

The male child (of the nation of Israel) is clearly referring to the Messiah Jesus, who will during the Millennial Age rule the nations strictly, with a rod of iron, and who after his resurrection was taken up into heaven to sit at the right hand of God ("looking to Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God", Hebrews 12:2).

(6) The woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that there they may nourish her one thousand two hundred sixty days.​

The nation of Israel shortly afterwards is scattered amongst the Gentile nations.

(13) When the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.​

The dragon, symbolic of Satan, has been persecuting the nation of Israel ever since.

(17) The dragon grew angry with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep God’s commandments and hold Jesus’ testimony.​

Satan has also been persecuting Christians, the offspring of Israel (Jesus was one offspring, Christians are the rest of the offspring).

Jesus has the testimony of Jesus? Nuts!

Gen 37:9 has no. Correlation to rev 12 no crown! No child! No nothing
The woman is Mary
The child is Christ
Mary is the adversary of satan
Israel was his partner in crucifying him
Gen 3:15 rev 12:1 lk 1:28 all Mary immaculate