Celebrating Christmas ?

[BreadOfLife]

the RCC adopted a gentile holiday to celebrate the birth of Christ, and the influence of that grew. it was a wise decision seeing it gives opportunity for unsaved to hear about the savior.

Actually - this is nonsense.

The Christian historian, Hippolytus of Rome, explains in his Commentary on the book of Daniel (c. A.D. 204) that from the earliest of times, the birth of Jesus was believed to have taken place on December 25th:

“For the first advent of our Lord in the flesh, when he was born in Bethlehem, was December 25th, Wednesday, while Augustus was in his forty-second year, but from Adam, five thousand and five hundred years. He suffered in the thirty-third year, March 25th, Friday, the eighteenth year of Tiberius Caesar, while Rufus and Roubellion were Consuls.”
(Hippolytus of Rome, Commentary on the book of Daniel, c. A.D. 204)

Hippolytus’ reference to Adam is from another one of his writings, the Chronicon, where he explains that Jesus was born nine months to the day of March 25th. According to his calculations, the world was created on the vernal equinox, March 25.

It was also believed that the Crucifixion took place on the anniversary of that date, some 5500 years later. This means that the Early Church believed that the Annunciation took place on March 25th on the anniversary of the Creation. The consensus was that Jesus was born exactly nine months later on December 25th.

As for the "gentile" or "pagan" Roman holiday of “Sol Invictus” or “Saturnalia”. - this is just a matter of revisionist anti-Catholic history.
The pagan celebration of Sol Invictus goes from December 17th and ends on 23rd. It wasn’t even adopted until the Roman Emperor Aurelian made it official in 274 AD. - which is about SEVENTY years AFTER Hippolytus's Commentary on the book of Daniel, which gives us the December 25th date.

MY suggestipon to the anti-Christmas or anti-Catholic crowd:
DO YOUR HOMEWORK . . .

 

[Pearl]

Why not? You people act like have a merry time is some great sin. Honestly we give presents not because of some pagan thing but because the wise man did. The reason it is on Dec 25 is because a long time ago a Bishop calculated some dates and it out came out to December 25. Honestly you people and your "oh no this is pagan" crap. Get over yourselves already. You wanna act all Scrooge do it but let us who keep Christmas keep it

Even Ebeneezer Scrooge eventually said, "I will honor Christmas in my heart, and try to keep it all the year."

 

[Pearl]

No, I think that Christmas is an absolute insult to Christ. Christ was given gifts because he was just that inimitably special. Why in the world would we attempt to emulate the honour and worship that Christ received, between ourselves?
Christ said be always vigilante, do not be like the 5 virgins who were not prepared. Meaning, one day out of the year is not worthy of any more devotion and attention to Christ, than the rest of the year. Also, it seems that it is Saint Nicholas who is the one getting all the attention, or at least, an inordinate amount, often over-shadowing Christ.
For those who are serious, no, we don't revere any single or particular days over another, in honour of Christ. He is King of Kings and Lord of Lord, all has been put under his rule, as it pleased the Father to do so. Christ is king for eternity, to the point that a single day set aside to pay homage to him, is nothing but an utter insult.
Every day is Christ's day, as all who have ever walked the earth, including saints and demons alike, will find out!

Are you by any chance a JW?

 

[BarneyFife]

Why not? You people act like have a merry time is some great sin.

What does "you people" mean?

 

[DPMartin]

Actually - this is nonsense.

The Christian historian, Hippolytus of Rome, explains in his Commentary on the book of Daniel (c. A.D. 204) that from the earliest of times, the birth of Jesus was believed to have taken place on December 25th:

“For the first advent of our Lord in the flesh, when he was born in Bethlehem, was December 25th, Wednesday, while Augustus was in his forty-second year, but from Adam, five thousand and five hundred years. He suffered in the thirty-third year, March 25th, Friday, the eighteenth year of Tiberius Caesar, while Rufus and Roubellion were Consuls.”
(Hippolytus of Rome, Commentary on the book of Daniel, c. A.D. 204)

Hippolytus’ reference to Adam is from another one of his writings, the Chronicon, where he explains that Jesus was born nine months to the day of March 25th. According to his calculations, the world was created on the vernal equinox, March 25.

It was also believed that the Crucifixion took place on the anniversary of that date, some 5500 years later. This means that the Early Church believed that the Annunciation took place on March 25th on the anniversary of the Creation. The consensus was that Jesus was born exactly nine months later on December 25th.

As for the "gentile" or "pagan" Roman holiday of “Sol Invictus” or “Saturnalia”. - this is just a matter of revisionist anti-Catholic history.
The pagan celebration of Sol Invictus goes from December 17th and ends on 23rd. It wasn’t even adopted until the Roman Emperor Aurelian made it official in 274 AD. - which is about SEVENTY years AFTER Hippolytus's Commentary on the book of Daniel, which gives us the December 25th date.

MY suggestipon to the anti-Christmas or anti-Catholic crowd:
DO YOUR HOMEWORK . . .

are you going to try and convince me that even according to your own posting here that its just a coincidence that the Church celebrates Christ's birth a day or two after said gentile holiday?

the Hebrew calendar is only 5781 years old from Adam and they are the ones keeping track. don't try and add the days of creation no one knows how long they were considering there was no sun until some time during the fourth day. but subtract 2020 from that and you're in the neighborhood of 3761 +- when Christ was born. commentaries are only that commentaries. so some yahoo's commentary compared to Hebrew records no contest since the bible is a Hebrew record.

its the source my friend. also its common knowledge that the date Jesus came into the world is speculative at best. besides it wasn't the RCC's duty to know when Jesus' birth day is, it was their duty to make the empire conform to the religion and church of the state or empire if you will, and adopting that time when celebrating a popular holiday to celebrate Christs birthday was a wise move.

 

[BarneyFife]

Actually - this is nonsense.

The Christian historian, Hippolytus of Rome, explains in his Commentary on the book of Daniel (c. A.D. 204) that from the earliest of times, the birth of Jesus was believed to have taken place on December 25th:

“For the first advent of our Lord in the flesh, when he was born in Bethlehem, was December 25th, Wednesday, while Augustus was in his forty-second year, but from Adam, five thousand and five hundred years. He suffered in the thirty-third year, March 25th, Friday, the eighteenth year of Tiberius Caesar, while Rufus and Roubellion were Consuls.”
(Hippolytus of Rome, Commentary on the book of Daniel, c. A.D. 204)

Good for Hippolytus of Rome.

Although most Christians celebrate December 25 as the birthday of Jesus Christ, few in the first two Christian centuries claimed any knowledge of the exact day or year in which he was born. The oldest existing record of a Christmas celebration is found in a Roman almanac that tells of a Christ’s Nativity festival led by the church of Rome in 336 A.D. The precise reason why Christmas came to be celebrated on December 25 remains obscure, but most researchers believe that Christmas originated as a Christian substitute for pagan celebrations of the winter solstice.

To early Christians (and to many Christians today), the most important holiday on the Christian calendar was Easter, which commemorates the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. However, as Christianity began to take hold in the Roman world, in the early fourth century, church leaders had to contend with a popular Roman pagan holiday commemorating the “birthday of the unconquered sun” (natalis solis invicti)–the Roman name for the winter solstice.

Every winter, Romans honored the pagan god Saturn, the god of agriculture, with Saturnalia, a festival that began on December 17 and usually ended on or around December 25 with a winter-solstice celebration in honor of the beginning of the new solar cycle. This festival was a time of merrymaking, and families and friends would exchange gifts. At the same time, Mithraism—worship of the ancient Persian god of light—was popular in the Roman army, and the cult held some of its most important rituals on the winter solstice.

After the Roman Emperor Constantine I converted to Christianity in 312 and sanctioned Christianity, church leaders made efforts to appropriate the winter-solstice holidays and thereby achieve a more seamless conversion to Christianity for the emperor’s subjects. In rationalizing the celebration of Jesus’ birthday in late December, church leaders may have argued that since the world was allegedly created on the spring equinox (late March), so too would Jesus have been conceived by God on that date. The Virgin Mary, pregnant with the son of God, would hence have given birth to Jesus nine months later on the winter solstice.

From Rome, the Christ’s Nativity celebration spread to other Christian churches to the west and east, and soon most Christians were celebrating Christ’s birth on December 25. To the Roman celebration was later added other winter-solstice rituals observed by various pagan groups, such as the lighting of the Yule log and decorations with evergreens by Germanic tribes. The word Christmas entered the English language originally as Christes maesse, meaning “Christ’s mass” or “festival of Christ” in Old English. A popular medieval feast was that of St. Nicholas of Myra, a saint said to visit children with gifts and admonitions just before Christmas. This story evolved into the modern practice of leaving gifts for children said to be brought by “Santa Claus,” a derivative of the Dutch name for St. Nicholas—Sinterklaas.

From History.com--Not a Protestant Source

 

[historyb]

What does "you people" mean?

It means idiots that start threads like this. They would be kicked out of Mayberry, Ernest T. Bass is better then these people :)

 

[BarneyFife]

It means idiots that start threads like this. They would be kicked out of Mayberry, Ernest T. Bass is better then these people :)

Gotcha

 

[BreadOfLife]

are you going to try and convince me that even according to your own posting here that its just a coincidence that the Church celebrates Christ's birth a day or two after said gentile holiday?

the Hebrew calendar is only 5781 years old from Adam and they are the ones keeping track. don't try and add the days of creation no one knows how long they were considering there was no sun until some time during the fourth day. but subtract 2020 from that and you're in the neighborhood of 3761 +- when Christ was born. commentaries are only that commentaries. so some yahoo's commentary compared to Hebrew records no contest since the bible is a Hebrew record.

its the source my friend. also its common knowledge that the date Jesus came into the world is speculative at best. besides it wasn't the RCC's duty to know when Jesus' birth day is, it was their duty to make the empire conform to the religion and church of the state or empire if you will, and adopting that time when celebrating a popular holiday to celebrate Christs birthday was a wise move.

Do you have trouble reading or something?
WHO said that I was "adding" or "counting" anything?? I told you flat-out that it was Hippolytus of Rome's account - NOT mine.

And whether or not you buy into his reckoning of when the Creation happened - he STILL chronicles the celebration of Christmas as far back as 204 AD - on December 25th. As I educated you in my LAST post - this is a full SEVENTY years BEFORE the inauguratioon of the pagan holiday of Sol Invictus.

So, the late December Christian celebration came BEFORE the late December Pagan celebration - no matter HOW much YOU whine about it . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Good for Hippolytus of Rome.

Although most Christians celebrate December 25 as the birthday of Jesus Christ, few in the first two Christian centuries claimed any knowledge of the exact day or year in which he was born. The oldest existing record of a Christmas celebration is found in a Roman almanac that tells of a Christ’s Nativity festival led by the church of Rome in 336 A.D. The precise reason why Christmas came to be celebrated on December 25 remains obscure, but most researchers believe that Christmas originated as a Christian substitute for pagan celebrations of the winter solstice.

To early Christians (and to many Christians today), the most important holiday on the Christian calendar was Easter, which commemorates the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. However, as Christianity began to take hold in the Roman world, in the early fourth century, church leaders had to contend with a popular Roman pagan holiday commemorating the “birthday of the unconquered sun” (natalis solis invicti)–the Roman name for the winter solstice.

Every winter, Romans honored the pagan god Saturn, the god of agriculture, with Saturnalia, a festival that began on December 17 and usually ended on or around December 25 with a winter-solstice celebration in honor of the beginning of the new solar cycle. This festival was a time of merrymaking, and families and friends would exchange gifts. At the same time, Mithraism—worship of the ancient Persian god of light—was popular in the Roman army, and the cult held some of its most important rituals on the winter solstice.

After the Roman Emperor Constantine I converted to Christianity in 312 and sanctioned Christianity, church leaders made efforts to appropriate the winter-solstice holidays and thereby achieve a more seamless conversion to Christianity for the emperor’s subjects. In rationalizing the celebration of Jesus’ birthday in late December, church leaders may have argued that since the world was allegedly created on the spring equinox (late March), so too would Jesus have been conceived by God on that date. The Virgin Mary, pregnant with the son of God, would hence have given birth to Jesus nine months later on the winter solstice.

From Rome, the Christ’s Nativity celebration spread to other Christian churches to the west and east, and soon most Christians were celebrating Christ’s birth on December 25. To the Roman celebration was later added other winter-solstice rituals observed by various pagan groups, such as the lighting of the Yule log and decorations with evergreens by Germanic tribes. The word Christmas entered the English language originally as Christes maesse, meaning “Christ’s mass” or “festival of Christ” in Old English. A popular medieval feast was that of St. Nicholas of Myra, a saint said to visit children with gifts and admonitions just before Christmas. This story evolved into the modern practice of leaving gifts for children said to be brought by “Santa Claus,” a derivative of the Dutch name for St. Nicholas—Sinterklaas.

From History.com--Not a Protestant Source

ALL of this was debunked back in post #21 already.
I quoted from Hippolytus's Commentary on the book of Daniel (c. A.D. 204).

This account was written 132 years BEFORE the date YOU gave of "336 AD".
OUCH . . .

 

[BarneyFife]

ALL of this was debunked back in post #21 already.
I quoted from Hippolytus's Commentary on the book of Daniel (c. A.D. 204).

This account was written 132 years BEFORE the date YOU gave of "336 AD".
OUCH . . .

It doesn't prove a thing. I don't see Hippolytus as being any more authoritative than History.com. Napoleon is believed to have said: "History is a pack of lies agreed upon." I think he was on to something.

 

[BarneyFife]

ALL of this was debunked back in post #21 already.
I quoted from Hippolytus's Commentary on the book of Daniel (c. A.D. 204).

This account was written 132 years BEFORE the date YOU gave of "336 AD".
OUCH . . .

Rather than an original theologian, Hippolytus was a laborious, learned compiler whose writings were often marred by an embittered, controversial tone. The West soon forgot him because he was a schismatic and because he wrote in Greek.

From Encyclopaedia Britannica

 

[BreadOfLife]

It doesn't prove a thing. I don't see Hippolytus as being any more authoritative than History.com. Napoleon is believed to have said: "History is a pack of lies agreed upon." I think he was on to something.

History.com - and it's television channel, "The History Channel" are revisionists.

Among other things in their documentaries, they have claimed:
- Jesus was probably married to Mary Magdelen
- Mary Magdelen was a full-fledged Apostle
- Jesus wasn't raised in Nazareth - even though the Bible says He was

One of their "experts", John Dominic Crossan, is from the radical "Jesus Seminar" - a group that claims, among other things, that:
- Jesus wasn't the Son of God
- Jesus wasn't buried in a tomb - he was eaten alive by wild dogs that roamed the site of the crucifixion
- Jesus never rose from the dead

Sooooo - if YOU want to site idiotic sources like "History.com" or the "History Channel" - be my guest.
I'll stick with the Early Church Fathers . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Rather than an original theologian, Hippolytus was a laborious, learned compiler whose writings were often marred by an embittered, controversial tone. The West soon forgot him because he was a schismatic and because he wrote in Greek.
From Encyclopaedia Britannica

This is nonsense.

MOST of the Early Church Fathers wrote in Greek.
Origen and Tertullian's writings are held in HIGH regard- even though both eventually went into heresy.

Of course - YOU still think that the History Channel is legitimate . . .

 

[kcnalp]

What does Christmas have to do with Jesus? Nothing!

 

[BarneyFife]

History.com - and it's television channel, "The History Channel" are revisionists.

Among other things in their documentaries, they have claimed:
- Jesus was probably married to Mary Magdelen
- Mary Magdelen was a full-fledged Apostle
- Jesus wasn't raised in Nazareth - even though the Bible says He was

One of their "experts", John Dominic Crossan, is from the radical "Jesus Seminar" - a group that claims, among other things, that:
- Jesus wasn't the Son of God
- Jesus wasn't buried in a tomb - he was eaten alive by wild dogs that roamed the site of the crucifixion
- Jesus never rose from the dead

Sooooo - if YOU want to site idiotic sources like "History.com" or the "History Channel" - be my guest.
I'll stick with the Early Church Fathers . . .

You do that.

 

[BarneyFife]

Of course - YOU still think that the History Channel is legitimate

I don't think that The History Channel is any more legitimate than any other arbiter of history. The Bible is the only reliable source of truth.

 

[DNB]

Are you by any chance a JW?

No, non-denominational, ...and, not holding to any definitive beliefs of the JWs.

 

[DNB]

Actually - this is nonsense.

The Christian historian, Hippolytus of Rome, explains in his Commentary on the book of Daniel (c. A.D. 204) that from the earliest of times, the birth of Jesus was believed to have taken place on December 25th:

“For the first advent of our Lord in the flesh, when he was born in Bethlehem, was December 25th, Wednesday, while Augustus was in his forty-second year, but from Adam, five thousand and five hundred years. He suffered in the thirty-third year, March 25th, Friday, the eighteenth year of Tiberius Caesar, while Rufus and Roubellion were Consuls.”
(Hippolytus of Rome, Commentary on the book of Daniel, c. A.D. 204)

Hippolytus’ reference to Adam is from another one of his writings, the Chronicon, where he explains that Jesus was born nine months to the day of March 25th. According to his calculations, the world was created on the vernal equinox, March 25.

It was also believed that the Crucifixion took place on the anniversary of that date, some 5500 years later. This means that the Early Church believed that the Annunciation took place on March 25th on the anniversary of the Creation. The consensus was that Jesus was born exactly nine months later on December 25th.

As for the "gentile" or "pagan" Roman holiday of “Sol Invictus” or “Saturnalia”. - this is just a matter of revisionist anti-Catholic history.
The pagan celebration of Sol Invictus goes from December 17th and ends on 23rd. It wasn’t even adopted until the Roman Emperor Aurelian made it official in 274 AD. - which is about SEVENTY years AFTER Hippolytus's Commentary on the book of Daniel, which gives us the December 25th date.

MY suggestipon to the anti-Christmas or anti-Catholic crowd:
DO YOUR HOMEWORK . . .

Man, have you ever been indoctrinated!?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Man, have you ever been indoctrinated!?

No - just educated.