Can a Believer Loose Their Salvation?

[mailmandan]

But even there it does not say that Judas, never believed in Jesus. It says Jesus knew from the beginning who they were. It does not say that they did not believe from the beginning. Now I suspect that Judas, never believed from the beginning, but scripture doesn't say that. And remember, for what it is worth, Judas had the same power of signs, wonders and miracles as the rest of the disciples.

Is a believer described as devil? (John 6:70) Jesus did not say stopped believing but did not believe in John 6:64. Jesus knew the heart of Judas. In John 13:10-11, we read - Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore, He said, “You are not all clean.”

In Matthew 10:1, we see that Jesus gave His 12 disciples power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. This would include Judas Iscariot, yet nowhere do we read that Judas did cast out unclean spirits and heal all kinds of sickness and the power came from Jesus in the first place and not His disciples. Apparently, Judas believed that Jesus' name has the power to cast out demons but did not truly believe in His name (John 1:12) and become a child of God, but instead was the son of perdition. (John 17:12)

What does scripture say about Judas Iscariot?

Judas was an unbeliever and is a devil.....John 6:64-71
Judas was spiritually unclean......John 13:11
Judas is lost and is the son of perdition.........John 17:12
Judas was not kept by Jesus........John 17:12; 18:9
Judas was a traitor.....Luke 6:16
Judas was a betrayer.....Multiple verses.
Judas was a thief and did not care for the poor........John 12:6
Judas was guilty of a greater sin.......John 19:11
Judas was influenced by Satan to betray Jesus.......John 13:2
Judas was entered by Satan.......Luke 22:3
Judas kills himself......Matthew 27:5
Judas' habitation to be desolate......Acts 1:20, Psalm 69:25

From beginning to end I see no evidence in scripture that Judas Iscariot ever was a genuine believer.

 

[Ritajanice]

I wish some would post scripture in its proper context, instead of snippets, of what they think scripture means.

John 17​

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New International Version​

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Jesus Prays to Be Glorified​

17 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all peoplethat he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Jesus Prays for His Disciples​

6 “I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of[b] your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by[c] that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by[d] the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

Jesus Prays for All Believers​

20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved themeven as you have loved me.
24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you[e] known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in themand that I myself may be in them.”


A Born Again can never not believe....as they have been Born of God, Spirit gives birth to spirit.....many don’t even understand what this means....because many are still carnal in their understanding...as scripture says.

 

[mailmandan]

I believe now much more deeply and firmly than many years ago when I first became a believer.

Please describe what constitutes "became a believer." What exactly did you come to believe that confirmed you as a believer that you previously did not believe? If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer? Your answer will demonstrate exactly what you believe in/have placed your faith in for salvation.

 

[JBO]

I wish some would post scripture in its proper context, instead of snippets, of what they think scripture means.

John 17​

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New International Version​

​

​

Jesus Prays to Be Glorified​

17 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all peoplethat he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Jesus Prays for His Disciples​

6 “I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of[b] your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by[c] that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by[d] the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

Jesus Prays for All Believers​

20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved themeven as you have loved me.
24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you[e] known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in themand that I myself may be in them.”

So then, after all of that, what do you think is the meaning of John 17:5? What was the glory that Jesus had with the Father before the world began?

 

[Ritajanice]

So then, after all of that, what do you think is the meaning of John 17:5? What was the glory that Jesus had with the Father before the world began?

Romans 8:7-9​

Romans 8:7-9 NKJV​

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His

Now you explain what this means?..in your own words..not a commentary as usual.

Is the Spirit Alive in you Spirit?

You must be Born Again...not believe..anyone can believe in their own strength..that counts for NOTHING.

Who Glorifies the Father and Son through us, his Born Again/children?

How do you know how to glorify Jesus?

Born Again..is a supernatural gift from God...an amazing gift...we have the in dwelling Holy Spirit in our hearts..do you understand that....Spirit gives birth to spirit?

For anyone to understand scripture..you must be Born Again...then the Holy Spirit will reveal all about Jesus to our spirit and relay to our minds...you are nothing without the Holy Spirit.

Just an “ empty useless vessel “

Without the in dwelling Holy Spirit..you have no spiritual understanding, period...

 

[Eternally Grateful]

But even there it does not say that Judas, never believed in Jesus. It says Jesus knew from the beginning who they were. It does not say that they did not believe from the beginning. Now I suspect that Judas, never believed from the beginning, but scripture doesn't say that. And remember, for what it is worth, Judas had the same power of signs, wonders and miracles as the rest of the disciples.

It says he did not believe

Judas thought Jesus came as messiah to free them from Rome.

Not as savior. to free him from his sin.

As soon as he found out Jesus was not going to free them from Rome. he left.. and turned Jesus in for some money

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Please describe what constitutes "became a believer." What exactly did you come to believe that confirmed you as a believer that you previously did not believe? If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer? Your answer will demonstrate exactly what you believe in/have placed your faith in for salvation.

Maybe he will answer you. He has yet to answer me

 

[JBO]

Please describe what constitutes "became a believer." What exactly did you come to believe that confirmed you as a believer that you previously did not believe? If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer? Your answer will demonstrate exactly what you believe in/have placed your faith in for salvation.

Do I sense a bit of self-righteousness in you request? Yeah, maybe. The real answer to your question is what is called sanctification. What I believe in/have placed my faith in for salvation is God. That is all rather independent of any depth of my knowledge about God., which has greatly increased through the years. There is no specified level or depth of knowledge about God that is required for salvation.

How about you? Do you know enough about God to be let into heaven?

 

[Ritajanice]

Do I sense a bit of self-righteousness in you request? Yeah, maybe. The real answer to your question is what is called sanctification. What I believe in/have placed my faith in for salvation is God. That is all rather independent of any depth of my knowledge about God., which has greatly increased through the years. There is no specified level or depth of knowledge about God that is required for salvation.

How about you? Do you know enough about God to be let into heaven?

Oh yes there is..special knowledge...that knowledge is Spirit gives birth to spirit?

You must be “ Born Again “.....not just believe.

Born of God by his will.....not your will.

 

[Ritajanice]

How about you? Do you know enough about God to be let into heaven?

Only a Born Again will see the Kingdom of God.

I knew nothing about God...not until he gave me his gift of Spirit gives birth to spirit...I became Born of God, by His Will!!

 

[JBO]

Oh yes there is..special knowledge...that knowledge is Spirit gives birth to spirit?

Born of God by his will.....not your will.

That happens when you are conceived/born (Zech 12:1). I think you mean REborn.

 

[Ritajanice]

That happens when you are conceived/born (Zech 12:1). I think you mean REborn.

I mean exactly what I posted..that is the word of God...not your words.

Born Again, is what God says....only a Born Again will see the Kingdom of God...period.

Spirit gives birth to spirit...perfect sense to me!

 

[mailmandan]

It says he did not believe

Judas thought Jesus came as messiah to free them from Rome.

Not as savior. to free him from his sin.

As soon as he found out Jesus was not going to free them from Rome. he left.. and turned Jesus in for some money

Certain people may actually start out believing in Jesus like they would believe in a politician (based on their initial misconceptions and expectations) then later find out that Jesus does not line up with their original expectations, just like these disciples in John 6:53-66 who initially set out to follow Christ, but had a difficult time accepting the words of Jesus in regards to eating His flesh and drinking His blood, then turned and walked with Him no more. Saving belief never rooted or established. Apparently, Jesus did not line up with Judas' original expectations.

 

[JBO]

Only a Born Again will see the Kingdom of God.

I knew nothing about God...not until he gave me his gift of Spirit gives birth to spirit.

I am not convinced you even know what that means. Your description seems to suggest that God just goes about giving His gift of the Spirit to this or that person, i.e., to some but not all.

 

[Ritajanice]

I am not convinced you even know what that means. Your description seems to suggest that God just goes about giving His gift of the Spirit to this or that person, i.e., to some but not all.

Who needs you to be convinced.

I only needed the word of God to convince me, which can only be done through the Holy Spirit...Spirit gives birth to spirit....only God through the Holy Spirit can testify with our spirit that we are Gods children.

You can believe whatever you like.....it’s the dead opposite to what I believe.

As I posted scripture earlier..the carnal mind doesn’t understand any of this.

 

[JBO]

Certain people may actually start out believing in Jesus like they would believe in a politician (based on their initial misconceptions and expectations) then later find out that Jesus does not line up with their original expectations, just like these disciples in John 6:53-66 who initially set out to follow Christ, but had a difficult time accepting the words of Jesus in regards to eating His flesh and drinking His blood, then turned and walked with Him no more. Saving belief never rooted or established. Apparently, Jesus did not line up with Judas' original expectations.

Do you have a saving belief? How do you know? What constitutes a saving belief versus just some, what shall we say, regular belief? How do you differentiate?

 

[JBO]

Who needs you to be convinced.

I only needed the word of God to convince me, which can only be done through the Holy Spirit...Spirit gives birth to spirit....only God through the Holy Spirit can testify with our spirit that we are Gods children.

You can believe whatever you like.....it’s the dead opposite to what I believe.

As I posted scripture earlier..the carnal mind doesn’t understand any of this.

And how did that word of God come to you?

 

[Ritajanice]

And how did that word of God come to you?

I’ve already posted scripture how God came to me.

Maybe this will help you understand?.....which I have asked you many times what does it mean, to which you never reply?

How would you know how to walk in the Spirit?

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◄ Romans 8 ►

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Berean Standard Bible Par ▾ Walking by the Spirit (Ezekiel 36:16–38; Galatians 5:16–26) 1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.a2For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set youb free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.c He thus condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace,7because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the fleshd cannot please God. 9You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alivee because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the deadf will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you. Heirs with Christ 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him. Future Glory (2 Corinthians 5:1–10) 18I consider that our present sufferings are not comparable to the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. 23Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently. 26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words. 27And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. God Works in All Things (Ephesians 1:3–14) 28And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. 29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. 31What then shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us. More than Conquerors (Psalm 44:1–26) 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written: “For Your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”g 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Do you have a saving belief? How do you know? What constitutes a saving belief versus just some, what shall we say, regular belief? How do you differentiate?

I have asked you this question multiple times.

Can you answer?

 

[mailmandan]

Do I sense a bit of self-righteousness in you request? Yeah, maybe. The real answer to your question is what is called sanctification. What I believe in/have placed my faith in for salvation is God. That is all rather independent of any depth of my knowledge about God., which has greatly increased through the years. There is no specified level or depth of knowledge about God that is required for salvation.

How about you? Do you know enough about God to be let into heaven?

It's not about how much information do I know about God that I have placed my faith in for salvation. My answer to the question I asked you in post #143 would be because you (Jesus Christ) died for my sins, were buried and rose from the dead on the third day to provide for me eternal life. I trust in your death, burial and resurrection as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Nothing self-righteous about that. Now by that, I acknowledge that I am a sinner who cannot save himself (Romans 3:23) and I am 100% dependent on Jesus Christ to save me. (John 10:9; 14:6; Romans 6:23) Jesus Christ gets all the credit, all the glory for my salvation. Praise God! :)

So, the answer is not, "Lord, Lord, didn't WE (Matthew 7:22) but "Lord, Lord, didn't YOU. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21)