Can a Believer Loose Their Salvation?

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HIM

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Yes, I did.
The issue is in the "I".
I have found that ALL false religions and cults which promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS which has always been a major red flag for me.

The issue is in the "I".

Since that is what you think, let us deal with that.

As was said We can't fall away from something if we are not there. On the other hand we can't stay put without Christ.

We can't be renewed again if we have not been renewed in the first place. On the other hand, we can't b3 renewed without Christ.


God has said, Eternal salvation is only for those of us whom obey, attentively hearken unto Him as verse 5:9 puts forth. On the other hand we can't obey Him without Him. For He succors, helps us when we are tempted. Living to intercede over us that come to God through Him saving us to the uttermost. Finding mercy and grace in our time of need. For our Lord is our Helper.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God through him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession over them.

Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb 13:6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.


So, in regard to Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I often hear works-salvationists cite this verse to try and support salvation by works, including Roman Catholics and Mormons.
As was said, the issue is in the "I".

However to answer your inquiry the saved,. But context shows us that those to whom he is speaking to can stop obeying, attentively listening to our Lord, our help when they are tempted. Because he goes on to say in chapter 6 which is started in the 1st person plural if they should fall away. One can't fall away unless one is a place to fall from. One can't be renewed AGAIN unto repentance which is of the Lord unless they been renewed in the first place.

And as was stated chapter 6 continues in verses 12-15 Through faith and patience we inherit the promises as Abraham patiently endured and obtained the promise. This is being stated in respect to the admonishing to which the chapter begins which stems from verse 5:9.



Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, in which we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are a partaker of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

If one had formal study in the Greek one would not make such a Grevious error in proclaiming what Gill proclaimed. One would also know that his mastery in the Greek wasn't saying much do to the resources at the time that he was alive. We should stay in our lane and not post what we know not or do not have the recourses or ability to understand or research if true or not.
Your "theologian" Gill is all alone in this that you proclaim. One can not discern Spiritual matters through the lense of preconceived notions and ideals. The conditional particle ἐάν is emphasized even more so by being compounded with enclitic particle περ.

In other words the indicative fact that we are His house or remain so is subject to the condition that follows the conditional particle that is emphasized being compounded with an enclitic particle. And this is even further being emphasized by the fact that the condition of the fact that we are His House or remain so is subject to the holding fast firm unto the end which is being stated in the subjunctive mood. The mood of possibilities. In other words. If it were not Possible for us the House not to hold fast then it would not state such subjunctively.

Χριστὸς δὲ But Christ ὡς As υἱὸς Son ἐπὶ Over τὸν οἶκον αὐτοῦ· His House, οὗ Whose οἶκός House ἐσμεν Are ἡμεῖς We,
ἐάνπερ If Indeed

From the BDAG:
γ. ἐάνπερ if indeed, if only, supposing that ‘referring to still another condition (fact)’ (B-D-F §454, 2) w. pres. subj. (Pla., Ap. 12, 25b; X., Cyr. 4, 6, 8; PFay 124, 9) Hb 6:3; IRo 1:1 and aor. (Plut., Lyc. 40 [3, 2]; BGU 1141, 30) 1:2; IPol 7:1; Hb 3:6, 14 (v.l. ἐάν).

From Robinson's word Pictures:
Whose house are we (ου οικος εσμεν ημεις). We Christians (Jew and Gentile) looked at as a whole, not as a local organization.
If we hold fast (εαν κατασχωμεν). Condition of third class with εαν and second aorist (effective) active subjunctive of κατεχω. This note of contingency and doubt runs all through the Epistle. We are God's house if we do not play the traitor and desert.


The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ and the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born-again Hebrews who have partaken in Christ, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Now what about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God, yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty? But then later? Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.


It plainly states that we should not follow after the sample of unbelief, that of disobedience, "them that sinned, whose carcasses fell in the desert" that Israel did prior to entering into the promise land. And we are Christ's house. only if we hold fast our confidence firm unto the end is being stated in the first person plural. In other words the writer includes himself. As in chapter 2 where the writer begins with an admonition including himself in respect giving earnest heed to that which they heard from the Son and them that heard Him lest they let them slip. For if that which was heard from angels was steadfast that every transgression and disobedience received a just reward how shall we escape that which was first spoken by the Lord and them that heard Him.
 
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mailmandan

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The issue is in the "I".

The issue is in the "I".

Since that is what you think, let us deal with that.

As was said We can't fall away from something if we are not there. On the other hand we can't stay put without Christ.

We can't be renewed again if we have not been renewed in the first place. On the other hand, we can't b3 renewed without Christ.

God has said, Eternal salvation is only for those of us whom obey, attentively hearken unto Him as verse 5:9 puts forth. On the other hand we can't obey Him without Him. For He succors, helps us when we are tempted. Living to intercede over us that come to God through Him saving us to the uttermost. Finding mercy and grace in our time of need. For our Lord is our Helper.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God through him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession over them.

Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb 13:6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

As was said, the issue is in the "I".

However to answer your inquiry the saved,. But context shows us that those to whom he is speaking to can stop obeying, attentively listening to our Lord, our help when they are tempted. Because he goes on to say in chapter 6 which is started in the 1st person plural if they should fall away. One can't fall away unless one is a place to fall from. One can't be renewed AGAIN unto repentance which is of the Lord unless they been renewed in the first place.

And as was stated chapter 6 continues in verses 12-15 Through faith and patience we inherit the promises as Abraham patiently endured and obtained the promise. This is being stated in respect to the admonishing to which the chapter begins which stems from verse 5:9.

If one had formal study in the Greek one would not make such a Grevious error in proclaiming what Gill proclaimed. One would also know that his mastery in the Greek wasn't saying much do to the resources at the time that he was alive. We should stay in our lane and not post what we know not or do not have the recourses or ability to understand or research if true or not.
Your "theologian" Gill is all alone in this that you proclaim. One can not discern Spiritual matters through the lense of preconceived notions and ideals. The conditional particle ἐάν is emphasized even more so by being compounded with enclitic particle περ.

In other words the indicative fact that we are His house or remain so is subject to the condition that follows the conditional particle that is emphasized being compounded with an enclitic particle. And this is even further being emphasized by the fact that the condition of the fact that we are His House or remain so is subject to the holding fast firm unto the end which is being stated in the subjunctive mood. The mood of possibilities. In other words. If it were not Possible for us the House not to hold fast then it would not state such subjunctively.

Χριστὸς δὲ But Christ ὡς As υἱὸς Son ἐπὶ Over τὸν οἶκον αὐτοῦ· His House, οὗ Whose οἶκός House ἐσμεν Are ἡμεῖς We,
ἐάνπερ If Indeed

From the BDAG:
γ. ἐάνπερ if indeed, if only, supposing that ‘referring to still another condition (fact)’ (B-D-F §454, 2) w. pres. subj. (Pla., Ap. 12, 25b; X., Cyr. 4, 6, 8; PFay 124, 9) Hb 6:3; IRo 1:1 and aor. (Plut., Lyc. 40 [3, 2]; BGU 1141, 30) 1:2; IPol 7:1; Hb 3:6, 14 (v.l. ἐάν).

From Robinson's word Pictures:
Whose house are we (ου οικος εσμεν ημεις). We Christians (Jew and Gentile) looked at as a whole, not as a local organization.
If we hold fast (εαν κατασχωμεν). Condition of third class with εαν and second aorist (effective) active subjunctive of κατεχω. This note of contingency and doubt runs all through the Epistle. We are God's house if we do not play the traitor and desert.

It plainly states that we should not follow after the sample of unbelief, that of disobedience, "them that sinned, whose carcasses fell in the desert" that Israel did prior to entering into the promise land. And we are Christ's house. only if we hold fast our confidence firm unto the end is being stated in the first person plural. In other words the writer includes himself. As in chapter 2 where the writer begins with an admonition including himself in respect giving earnest heed to that which they heard from the Son and them that heard Him lest they let them slip. For if that which was heard from angels was steadfast that every transgression and disobedience received a just reward how shall we escape that which was first spoken by the Lord and them that heard Him.
The truth from posts #19 and #75 still stand in spite of your eisegesis.
 
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MatthewG

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What has any of that got to do with my questions?
You never answered my question. (Which was where did you come up with your questions for me with what was shared prior, or is it something in general you desire to know how I see things on your question?) It's all good though. If Christ never lived to please himself, and he lives in and through us? Doesn't that mean that sometimes we have to not exercise our own freewill, and exercise a decision to walk in faith, and walk by the holy spirit of God, and the spirit of Christ within oneself?
 

MatthewG

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People can't lose salvation it is a given. Deliverance has been made for all people. What is true is that people can choose to either believe in God and seek him out, or not, and seek out things of the world itself. People can renounce their faith, and ultimately God is looking at the heart of each individual that lives out there now today, always calling to all to come to him, by the glory of his creation from the heavens to the earth. God can take away the holy spirit and allow a person to live by merit of their flesh, if they choose to go that route. There is nothing in the bible that doesn't allow for God to make his own decisions right? God allowed for his own chosen nation to be destroyed, he can take away the spirit from those who choose to not follow him.

There are also people who profess that they love God, however they deny him in their hearts.
 

MatthewG

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People can have troubles in life, and say to hell with all this God stuff, I prayed and prayed and he never got me through. It's not that they were not saved, but perhaps they had been lied to, or hurt by people in church and things like that.


The bible talks about people who fall away, even Jesus.

18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."



To say its impossible that a person would not change their own mind about the whole things concerning God, is wrong. Sure there will be those who continue to produce good fruit and they remain faithful all the days of their lives before they die, however they can at any point become faithless, and turn away from the living God if they are ensnared by their own desires and ways and simply just stop being concerned with the spiritual things of God.



"Suggesting only real believers are saved" - and everyone else "was never a true believer" is all bullcrap. Sometimes people end up leaving turning for the world more than they will turn to God.

There are also those who profess they love God, and are believers but they deny God in their heart.
 
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JBO

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Doesn't that mean that sometimes we have to not exercise our own freewill, and exercise a decision to walk in faith, and walk by the holy spirit of God, and the spirit of Christ within oneself?
But even that is a decision made through our free will. Free will is a key to all of our actions of and through faith. Free will is what allows one to even believe in God, i.e., to have faith. It is also what would allow to cease to believe in God, and in such a case to lose or give up salvation. God doesn't force you to believe in Him and He doesn't force you to continue to believe in Him.

Paul said, "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom 8:38-39).

But he didn't say that you couldn't separate yourself from God.
 
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St. SteVen

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But even that is a decision made through our free will. Free will is a key to all of our actions of and through faith. Free will is what allows one to even believe in God, i.e., to have faith. It is also what would allow to cease to believe in God, and in such a case to lose or give up salvation. God doesn't force you to believe in Him and He doesn't force you to continue to believe in Him.

Paul said, "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom 8:38-39).

But he didn't say that you couldn't separate yourself from God.
I seem to see a contradiction here. Please clarify. Thanks.

First you write:
It is also what would allow to cease to believe in God, and in such a case to lose or give up salvation.
Then you write:
But he didn't say that you could separate yourself from God.
Which is it? Lose salvation, or not lose salvation?

In my view, we cannot undo what only God could do in the first place.
Even in the case of reprobation it is God's choice, not our own.
And the purpose of the Good Shepard is to bring the lost sheep back to the fold.

/
 

St. SteVen

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A saved person (which is not simply a believer) can lose their salvation as the scriptures teach
I can't imagine a more careless act. - LOL

As if salvation can be lost as easily as your car keys.
What became of eternal security? We seem to have traded it for eternal IN-security.
The life of fear. Is that what God wants for us?

/
 

JBO

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Yes, I did.


I have found that ALL false religions and cults which promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS which has always been a major red flag for me.


Hebrews 3:8-10 says, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it.

Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. NOT later destroyed those who stopped believing but DID NOT BELIEVE.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, in which we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are a partaker of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ and the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born-again Hebrews who have partaken in Christ, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Now what about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God, yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty? But then later? Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


So, in regard to Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I often hear works-salvationists cite this verse to try and support salvation by works, including Roman Catholics and Mormons.

*Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9,10) In either sense, only believers obey Him.

*Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on works. So, in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.


It's not hard to find make believers mixed in with genuine believers. In Hebrews 4:2-3, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in THOSE who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers.

*Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

In Hebrews 10:39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to make believers/nominal Christians, not saved people: But WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

In Hebrews 12:15, we read - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God.. (NASB) The NIV says - ..falls short of the grace of God and the ESV says - ..fails to obtain the grace of God.. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" (pseudo) Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not hard to find them mixed together in scripture, in various churches and on various Christian forum sites.
The entire letter of Hebrews was written to persuade Jewish Christians to not renounce their faith in Christ and return to the old covenant ways. Hebrews is the appeal of the author against apostacy.

If OSAS is a true doctrine, then the entire letter to the Hebrews is of no consequence whatsoever. If OSAS is true then the letter to the Hebrews may be interesting but serves no real purpose.
 

JBO

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Which is it? Lose salvation, or not lose salvation?
I seem to see a contradiction here. Please clarify. Thanks.

First you write:

Then you write:

Which is it? Lose salvation, or not lose salvation?

In my view, we cannot undo what only God could do in the first place.
Even in the case of reprobation it is God's choice, not our own.
And the purpose of the Good Shepard is to bring the lost sheep back to the fold.

/
I corrected my typo.
 
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St. SteVen

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Which is it? Lose salvation, or not lose salvation?

I corrected my typo.
I'll take a look, thanks.
Paul said, "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom 8:38-39).

But he didn't say that you couldn't separate yourself from God.
Oops.
I think the point is that NOTHING can separate us. The Apostle covers ALL the bases.
Even we ourselves are a thing present, or to come; or any other creature.

/ @mailmandan
 

JBO

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I'll take a look, thanks.

Oops.
I think the point is that NOTHING can separate us. The Apostle covers ALL the bases.
Even we ourselves are a thing present, or to come; or any other creature.

/ @mailmandan
We ourselves is not the subject of Paul's statement.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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The entire letter of Hebrews was written to persuade Jewish Christians to not renounce their faith in Christ and return to the old covenant ways. Hebrews is the appeal of the author against apostacy.

If OSAS is a true doctrine, then the entire letter to the Hebrews is of no consequence whatsoever. If OSAS is true then the letter to the Hebrews may be interesting but serves no real purpose.

well you almost got it.

The author of Hebrews IS trying to persuade them not to go back to the law. In which salvation is lost by committing just one sin. And how the law was ineffective in saving anyone, because even the priest was not perfect. His strangest warning was in Heb 6 when he said that if a person could fall away. they could not be renewed...

The truth is, Unless you believe in eternal security, and understand the law. You can not understand Hebrews.
 

MatthewG

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But even that is a decision made through our free will. Free will is a key to all of our actions of and through faith. Free will is what allows one to even believe in God, i.e., to have faith. It is also what would allow to cease to believe in God, and in such a case to lose or give up salvation. God doesn't force you to believe in Him and He doesn't force you to continue to believe in Him.

Paul said, "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom 8:38-39).

But he didn't say that you couldn't separate yourself from God.
I believe thats a little more personal than freewill, it has to do with our soul (mind/will/emotions), a renewed mind and an circumcised heart is what is needed.

And I would agree with what you have to say on the decision all have to make, is God exising? Or is God not.
 

mailmandan

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The entire letter of Hebrews was written to persuade Jewish Christians to not renounce their faith in Christ and return to the old covenant ways. Hebrews is the appeal of the author against apostacy.

If OSAS is a true doctrine, then the entire letter to the Hebrews is of no consequence whatsoever. If OSAS is true then the letter to the Hebrews may be interesting but serves no real purpose.
The letter of Hebrews serves a purpose. Do not draw back to perdition but believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39) If OSAS was not true, then Hebrews 10:10 and Hebrews 10:14 serves no purpose.

Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice and does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. How long is forever?
 

JBO

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Hey bro,

I asked you earlier, I never did see you respond.

what is true saving faith. What constitutes the type of faith that saves?
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.......

Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Faith in God is the faith that saves.