Can a Believer Loose Their Salvation?

[JBO]

The answer is no

John said they were never of us.

Why do you not listen to John?

The answer is yes. John doesn't answer the question. What John said is that they were never believers.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are the one bringing up the genuine versus professing believer. I do not ever draw such a distinction. I do not think you will find such in God's word. But perhaps you could give us what you think are the distinguishing features of each.

The people in James 2 professed to be believers.

were they saved with a dead faith?

 

[JBO]

So, those who went out from genuine believers were not of them.

Non-believers went out from believers.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The answer is yes. John doesn't answer the question. What John said is that they were never believers.

No,

He said they were never of us..

These are people who walked with us, then left having now rejected christ (unbeliever)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Non-believers went out from believers.

Yes, do you see?

They were never of us..

They were make believers

 

[JBO]

The people in James 2 professed to be believers.

were they saved with a dead faith?

Dead faith? What is a professed believer except a non-believer? The non-believer has no faith, by definition. To have faith in God is to believe in God -- PERIOD.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Quit simply My friend We can't fall away from something if we are not there. We can't be renewed again if we have not been renewed in the first place.

You just hit it

If they fall away (if it was possible) The author never said they fell away. That is men adding to the word

And the phrase be renewed to repentance is the thing which is impossible

If one could lose salvation they could not be resaved.. they would be lost forever. Christ is not coming back to die again.

The author is speaking of the law and the sacrifices and the ability under the law to fall away.

 

[JBO]

Yes, do you see?

They were never of us..

They were make believers

If would seem that you are confused about what it means to be a believer. All the folderal about make believers, professed believers, or genuine believers. The Bible never speaks about such things.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Dead faith? What is a professed believer except a non-believer? The non-believer has no faith, by definition. To have faith in God is to believe in God -- PERIOD.

Demons believe yet tremble. Why?

What is saving faith in God?

what does it consist of?

 

[mailmandan]

You are the one bringing up the genuine versus professing believer. I do not ever draw such a distinction. I do not think you will find such in God's word. But perhaps you could give us what you think are the distinguishing features of each.

So, you draw no distinction between the wheat and the tares? (Matthew 24:24-30)
You draw no distinction between genuine brethren and false brethren? (2 Corinthians 11:26; Galatians 2:4)
You draw no distinction between those who are truly His disciples and those who are not? (John 6:64-66; 8:31)
You draw no distinction between those who hear and believe and those who do not mix faith with what they hear? (Hebrews 4:2-3)
You draw no distinction between those who believe to the saving of the soul and those who draw back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul? (Hebrews 10:39)
etc.. etc..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If would seem that you are confused about what it means to be a believer. All the folderal about make believers, professed believers, or genuine believers. The Bible never speaks about such things.

No, I think the Bible is quite clear on what a true believer is.

Many claim to have faith, but do not and never did. As James says in chapter 2

 

[JBO]

You just hit it

If they fall away (if it was possible) The author never said they fell away. That is men adding to the word

And you just did that with your parenthetical (if it was possible). If it were not possible, the author would have never given it as a conditional.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And you just did that with your parenthetical (if it was possible). If it were not possible, the author would have never given it as a conditional.

I just read the passage

”IF” if it is possible, “They fall away”

It is impossible to renew them to repentance

You should study the law. That is the context of Hebrews.

 

[Taken]

A believer can lose salvation.

Glory to God?

That sounds odd..I know its your signature, but they do nit mix.

Glass half full. :)

We are NOW occupying the Earth with a MIX of Believers and Non-believers.

Glory to God, FUTURE all occupying the Earth SHALL be Believers. :)

 

[mailmandan]

HIM said: No you didn't.

Yes, I did.

All that to try to explain away what the text actually says. Shame no one gets that from a simple reading of what the text plainly states. That alone should be and probably was a red flag for those whom put forth the doctrine of OSAS initially.

I have found that ALL false religions and cults which promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS which has always been a major red flag for me.

Quit simply My friend We can't fall away from something if we are not there. We can't be renewed again if we have not been renewed in the first place. Eternal salvation is only for those of us whom obey, attentively hearken unto Him as verse 5:9 puts forth. And as chapter 6 continues in verses 12-15 Through faith and patience we inherit the promises as Abraham patiently endured and obtained the promise.. And if that is not enough context for us let's back up to chapter 3 and 4. Where it plainly states that we should not follow after the sample of unbelief, that of disobedience, "them that sinned, whose carcasses fell in the desert" that Israel did prior to entering into the promise land. And that we are Christ's house only if we hold fast our confidence firm unto the end. (3:6) And what of chapter 2 where the writer begins with an admonition including himself in respect giving earnest heed to that which they heard from the Son and them that heard Him lest they let them slip. For if that which was heard from angels was steadfast that every transgression and disobedience received a just reward how shall we escape that which was first spoken by the Lord and them that heard Him.

Hebrews 3:8-10 says, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it.

Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. NOT later destroyed those who stopped believing but DID NOT BELIEVE.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, in which we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are a partaker of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ and the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born-again Hebrews who have partaken in Christ, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Now what about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God, yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty? But then later? Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

So, in regard to Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I often hear works-salvationists cite this verse to try and support salvation by works, including Roman Catholics and Mormons.

*Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9,10) In either sense, only believers obey Him.

*Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on works. So, in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Heb 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
Heb 6:14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
Heb 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Heb 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

It's not hard to find make believers mixed in with genuine believers. In Hebrews 4:2-3, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in THOSE who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers.

*Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

In Hebrews 10:39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to make believers/nominal Christians, not saved people: But WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

In Hebrews 12:15, we read - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God.. (NASB) The NIV says - ..falls short of the grace of God and the ESV says - ..fails to obtain the grace of God.. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" (pseudo) Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not hard to find them mixed together in scripture, in various churches and on various Christian forum sites.

 

[JBO]

So, you draw no distinction between the wheat and the tares? (Matthew 24:24-30)
You draw no distinction between genuine brethren and false brethren? (2 Corinthians 11:26; Galatians 2:4)
You draw no distinction between those who are truly His disciples and those who are not? (John 6:64-66; 8:31)
You draw no distinction between those who hear and believe and those who do not mix faith with what they hear? (Hebrews 4:2-3)
You draw no distinction between those who believe to the saving of the soul and those who draw back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul? (Hebrews 10:39)
etc.. etc..

I draw the distinction between the wheat and the tares? (Matthew 24:24-30), the tares are not believers.
I draw the distinction between genuine brethren and false brethren? (2 Corinthians 11:26; Galatians 2:4) The false brethren are not believers.
I draw the distinction between those who are truly His disciples and those who are not? (John 6:64-66; 8:31) There are His disciples who are believers and those who are not believers.
I draw the distinction between those who hear and believe and those who do not believe what they hear? (Hebrews 4:2-3) There is no such thing as mixing faith with what they hear. To believe in God is to have faith in God.
I draw the distinction between those who believe to the saving of the soul and those who draw back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul? (Hebrews 10:39). I have been saying all along that there are those who believer and those who do not. The point here is that even verse 39 hints at the possibility of those who shrink back. What does it mean to shrink back.? Did they once believe and then quit believing? Could they shrink back from where they never were?

 

[mailmandan]

Non-believers went out from believers.

Exactly! Now does that mean they were never there with believers? Even "professing" to be believers themselves?

 

[Taken]

I just read the passage

”IF” if it is possible, “They fall away”

It is impossible to renew them to repentance

You should study the law. That is the context of Hebrews.

They who believe AND fall away, have “fallen from Faith”.
Their “consequence” is to NOT receive the Gift that was: Bought, Paid for, Offered for them to Take…..but they chose NOT to Take “their” Gift.

Gods GIFT of Salvation is EVERY mans TO TAKE.
Like a gift from anyone to anyone. Don’t TAKE it, you don’t possess it. Don’t possess it, you don’t HAVE it, you don’t HAVE it, you forfeited it by Rejecting it.
Yet it was still YOURS, to Take.


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[mailmandan]

I draw the distinction between the wheat and the tares? (Matthew 24:24-30), the tares are not believers.
I draw the distinction between genuine brethren and false brethren? (2 Corinthians 11:26; Galatians 2:4) The false brethren are not believers.
I draw the distinction between those who are truly His disciples and those who are not? (John 6:64-66; 8:31) There are His disciples who are believers and those who are not believers.

Amen! Progress.

I draw the distinction between those who hear and believe and those who do not believe what they hear? (Hebrews 4:2-3) There is no such thing as mixing faith with what they hear. To believe in God is to have faith in God.

For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in THOSE who heard it. The demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" (James 2:19) but they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and are not saved. (Acts 16:31)

I draw the distinction between those who believe to the saving of the soul and those who draw back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul? (Hebrews 10:39). I have been saying all along that there are those who believer and those who do not. The point here is that even verse 39 hints at the possibility of those who shrink back. What does it mean to shrink back.? Did they once believe and then quit believing? Could they shrink back from where they never were?

Nothing is mentioned in Hebrews 10:39 about once believed but quit believing. They could shrink back from a shallow faith that was never firmly rooted and established from the start. Hence the drawing back to perdition and failing to believe to the saving of the soul.

 

[JBO]

No, I think the Bible is quite clear on what a true believer is.

Many claim to have faith, but do not and never did. As James says in chapter 2

I think that you are confused about what James says. But that's okay, sort of. Many are. Even Martin Luther was confused; so confused that he wanted to remove James from the Bible.