Can a Believer Loose Their Salvation?

[JBO]

Nothing is mentioned in Hebrews 10:39 about once believed but quit believing. They could shrink back from a shallow faith that was never firmly rooted and established from the start. Hence the drawing back to perdition and failing to believe to the saving of the soul.

Oh good grief. Now there is a "shallow faith" How many other things do you have to make up in order to defend your erroneous ideas?

 

[mailmandan]

I think that you are confused about what James says. But that's okay, sort of. Many are. Even Martin Luther was confused; so confused that he wanted to remove James from the Bible.

After being steeped in Catholicism I'm sure that James had a difficult time sorting everything out at first. I have no problem with James and in spite of popular belief by works-salvationists, James does not teach that we are saved by works.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24).

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[mailmandan]

Oh good grief. Now there is a "shallow faith" How many other things do you have to make up in order to defend your erroneous ideas?

What do you mean make up? Not all belief is the same.

In Luke 8:13, we read about seed that fell on shallow ground and the person is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? I will explain the reasons.

First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

Unlike saving belief, temporary, shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? It doesn't. Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they are not saved. Something for you to really think about. ;)

 

[JBO]

After being steeped in Catholicism I'm sure that James had a difficult time sorting everything out at first. I have no problem with James and in spite of popular belief by works-salvationists, James does not teach that we are saved by works.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24).

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

But none of that says that one who once believed no longer has free will and cannot quit believing.

 

[mailmandan]

But none of that says that one who once believed no longer has free will and cannot quit believing.

We will always have free will yet genuine believers are new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) who have received the love of God in their hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to them. (Romans 5:5) Show me the words "quit believing" and "lost salvation" in the Bible. For me to decide to quit believing is unfathomable to me. My faith is deeply rooted, and I am too convinced to even imagine to simply quit believing. 25 years of saving belief in Christ and still going strong. Praise God! :)

 

[HIM]

The author is speaking of the law and the sacrifices and the ability under the law to fall away.

I don't even think you believe that. Take care we won't be responding to anything else you post unless you can support the statement above within the context or actually address the points in the posts you are responding to. Your post here doesn't even do that.. The fact alone that the text states crucifying the son of God afresh destroys the premise that you are purporting since the context to which he speaks is set in that and the preceding verses. And let's not forget the writer is speaking in the first person plural in verse 1 -3. And in that context he starts verse 4 with the word "for" Which means what is about to be said is connected to what was said if not the reason for it. So obliviously those to whom the admonition it to are of Christ prior to falling away since you can't fall from somewhere you are not as was said. And this the context puts forth in the surrounding passages.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they fall away (if it was possible) The author never said they fell away. That is men adding to the word

Thanks for drawing our attention to that. The KJV and any other version that translates verse 6 with the word "if" are adding to the text. The word "if" is not there nor is the clause being stated in the subjunctive mood. The word translated "Fall away" is a participle in the aorist tense. Which means they are fallen away or have fell.

Heb 6:6 and having fallen away, it is impossible for them again to renew to repentance, crucifying again for themselves the Son of God, and putting Him to open shame.

 

[HIM]

I ....

.Why would you quote what was said and not the one who said it? Seems a bit deceptive and sneaky not to mention disrespectful. We will address your post when time allows.

 

[mailmandan]

.Why would you quote what was said and not the one who said it? Seems a bit deceptive and sneaky not to mention disrespectful. We will address your post when time allows.

Sometimes when I tag a post the one who said it doesn't always come up in my post. I did not catch that at first. Thanks for bringing it up. I did just now "add HIM said" to the post. I was not trying to be deceptive, sneaky or disrespectful.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I think that you are confused about what James says. But that's okay, sort of. Many are. Even Martin Luther was confused; so confused that he wanted to remove James from the Bible.

I am not confused at all

James asked the question. What does it PROFIT a man if he CLAIMS to have faith. But has no work. Can that FAITH save him?

Yes Luther got alot wrong.. But James is not hard. If we open our heart.

once again, I ask. what is true saving faith. What does it mean?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What do you mean make up? Not all belief is the same.

In Luke 8:13, we read about seed that fell on shallow ground and the person is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? I will explain the reasons.

First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

Unlike saving belief, temporary, shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? It doesn't. Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they are not saved. Something for you to really think about. ;)

Still waiting for him to tell us what true saving faith is

 

[Eternally Grateful]

But none of that says that one who once believed no longer has free will and cannot quit believing.

Just because someone can does not mean they will

You’re arguing based on a possibility. Not a fact.

 

[mailmandan]

I am not confused at all

James asked the question. What does it PROFIT a man if he CLAIMS to have faith. But has no work. Can that FAITH save him?

Yes Luther got alot wrong.. But James is not hard. If we open our heart.

once again, I ask. what is true saving faith. What does it mean?

Amen! SAYS/CLAIMS to have faith but has no works.. is the key word in James 2:14 which clarifies the context.

 

[mailmandan]

Still waiting for him to tell us what true saving faith is

I noticed the hesitation as well.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I don't even think you believe that. Take care we won't be responding to anything else you post unless you can support the statement above within the context or actually address the points in the posts you are responding to. Your post here doesn't even do that.. The fact alone that the text states crucifying the son of God afresh destroys the premise that you are purporting since the context to which he speaks is set in that and the preceding verses. And let's not forget the writer is speaking in the first person plural in verse 1 -3. And in that context he starts verse 4 with the word "for" Which means what is about to be said is connected to what was said if not the reason for it. So obliviously those to whom the admonition it to are of Christ prior to falling away since you can't fall from somewhere you are not as was said. And this the context puts forth in the surrounding passages.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,


Thanks for drawing our attention to that. The KJV and any other version that translates verse 6 with the word "if" are adding to the text. The word "if" is not there nor is the clause being stated in the subjunctive mood. The word translated "Fall away" is a participle in the aorist tense. Which means they are fallen away or have fell.

Heb 6:6 and having fallen away, it is impossible for them again to renew to repentance, crucifying again for themselves the Son of God, and putting Him to open shame.

It is impossible to renew them to repentance.

That is the jist of the passage.

If one could fall away, they could never be renewed to repentance.

The law said they could through animal sacrifice.

this is also proven by the next verses. about the earth drinking rain.. and about being near to being cursed..

it all fits together well..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

.Why would you quote what was said and not the one who said it? Seems a bit deceptive and sneaky not to mention disrespectful. We will address your post when time allows.

You username is “Him” singular.

yet you keep saying we.

 

[MatthewG]

Are you one of those who believes that in becoming one in Christ that you give up your free will? Or perhaps you are one who rejects the idea of the free will for mankind altogether.

Can I ask you were you got all that from what was shared, or is this just a general question you are looking to have answered?

 

[Taken]

Exactly! Now does that mean they were never there with believers?

Considering the “process” FOR a man, ie God WAY.

Hear Gods word….man given Faith from God.
Continue hearing…mans Faith increases.
Man Believes, doubts, wonders, even denies.
Man continues hearing…Belief increases.
Man continues diligence hearing, begins assured Believing.

Man surrounds himself with LIKE believers, his belief increases.

Man has an Obstacle. He lives IN a world whereby there are thousands of (powerful, cunning) Fallen angels AND (powerful authorities;) Parents, Teachers, Nations leaders, Political reps, Employers, etc., who DO NOT believe, who CAN and DO;
Teach against belief, Encourage rejection of Belief, Threaten for believing, Punish for believing.

Scripture, is full of “warnings” FOR the Believer: TO BEWARE of (the more “powerful’ authorities INTENT to draw a Believer AWAY from God.)

For 4,000 years, Men (primarily ISRAEL, Hebrews, Tribesmen, Jews who Believed,)had LAWS, written Scriptures, Prayer, to Focus on, to encourage children to adults … as a WAY of Life, to KEEP their focus on God….that THEY be NOT susceptible to Trickery of higher authorities (power).

(In brief) For SOME “tribesmen of Israel”, it was possible, For OTHERS, (for a multitude of reasoning and circumstances)
Ease, lust, anti-God acceptance by the MAJORITY, was the path, MANY chose.

Fast forward to 2,000 years ago…
The long awaited Messiah (and SAVIOR) OF the Tribes of Israel arrives.
They (majority of Tribes), are disappointed.
They SEE, a man, without royalty, without wealth, without a kingdom, without an army
AND a majority REJECT any semblance that THIS man IS THEIR Messiah / Savior.

The TRIBESMEN, become Divided amongst themselves. Some Believing in this MESSIAH, some REJECTING Belief.

Meantime…Gentiles Ears are perked. Learning about ISRAELS God, AND ISRAELS Messiah….and MANY Gentiles themselves ARE dividing themselves FROM Gentiles who REJECT ISRAELS God and Gentiles who are Accepting ISRAELS God, but REJECTING (like some of ISRAEL) this same man being called the MESSIAH.

So…WHAT DOES “this MESSIAH” OFFER “all men” and OPTION TO CHOOSE?

Forever LIFE “WITH” God…..
With A “guarantee”. (Surety)
How so?

Hear the Word of God, (consequence? )be blessed FROM God with Faith.
Continue Hearing (reading) the word of God, (consequence ?) be blessed FROM God with Increased Faith.
CHOOSE yourself … IF you BELIEF.
* Be DILIGENT…Mull, think, decide, CHOOSE.

THEN WHAT? BE SURE, of what your own Heart Believes.

THEN WHAT? Call on ISRAELS Christ Messiah Lords NAME (JESUS) and CONFESS your TRUE Heartful BELIEF to Him.

THEN WHAT? ISRAELS’ God SHALL “search your Heart’s Confession of Belief”….
“IF” your Heart’s Confession BE TRUE…

“THEN’ ….right THEN…
* “SHALL”…your body be “Accounted DEAD crucified “ with Christ Jesus’ body.
* “SHALL”…your soul be “Restored” (back to “very good” as it was when God blew a soul with His Life into you. Called “SAVED”, meaning NEVER shall Gods Breath OF LIFE depart out of your soul.
* “SHALL”…the “quickening Spirit” (CHIRST), shall give you Gods SEED (CHRIST), to Rebirth your OLD spirit (which is the natural truth IN your Heart), to a NEW spirit (which is Gods Truth IN your Heart).


BELIEF and Heartful CONFESSION…
Changes everything RIGHT THEN.
An surety to Forever be with God.

Gory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Can I ask you were you got all that from what was shared, or is this just a general question you are looking to have answered?

Not giving up your Freewill, rather Exercising your Freewill.

 

[MatthewG]

Are you one of those who believes that in becoming one in Christ that you give up your free will? Or perhaps you are one who rejects the idea of the free will for mankind altogether.

For even Christ didn’t live to please himself. As the Scriptures say, “The insults of those who insult you, O God, have fallen on me.”
Romans 15:3

The cross it to be taken up, which is a self-sacrifice on our behalf in which one dies to the flesh, and moves on forward to live by the holy spirit of God, and the spirit of Christ. Being set apart for Gods good works, and the Spirit of Christ which lives within us helps out.

 

[JBO]

For even Christ didn’t live to please himself. As the Scriptures say, “The insults of those who insult you, O God, have fallen on me.”
Romans 15:3

The cross it to be taken up, which is a self-sacrifice on our behalf in which one dies to the flesh, and moves on forward to live by the holy spirit of God, and the spirit of Christ. Being set apart for Gods good works, and the Spirit of Christ which lives within us helps out.

What has any of that got to do with my questions?