Calvinism vs. Arminianism

[Ronald Nolette]

When God gave you the capacity to choose, this included the possibility that you might reject God?

Much love!

How can that be? The saved are the chosen from before the foundation of the world! We do not choose Him, He chose us, before creation! We just say yes by that drawing by god to Himself.

We reject HIm by defaault due to our human nature. I already was rejecting HIm.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The scripture you posted is true, we were all predestined before the foundation of the world, neither are we forced into accepting Gods gift of free salvation. You could have refused if you had wanted.
.

But I didn't and so the issue is irrelavent. I would have come to Jesus sooner or later. Believers are the elect from before the foundation of the World and predestined.

The whole issue of free will is simply the natural mans desire to have some say in what it will or will not choose! AKA pride! But the fact the Bible is clear in that an unsaved person will never please God and CANNOT please God.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Seriously?
It was his study of the Epistle to the Romans as an Amsterdam minister that set Jacob Arminius firmly against Calvinism. Faith, he believed, was the cause of election: "It is an eternal and gracious decree of God in Christ, by which he determines to justify and adopt believers, and to endow them with eternal life but to condemn unbelievers, and impenitent persons."
"That teacher obtains my highest approbation who ascribes as much as possible to divine grace," he assured them, "provided he so pleads the cause of grace, as not to inflict an injury on the justice of God, and not to take away the free will of that which is evil."

And which of the five points is this speaking on? When I say Calvinism on this thread I am referring solely to the five points or TULIP, I do not know the calvin religion, though I did read for church history class the Institutes of the Christian Religion by Calvin over 30 years ago.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

None of those passages claim we can not respond to God when convicted by his Spirit.

None of them say we can either! But given the fact the believer is elected (chosen) before the foundation of the world, and that we come to Christ by the Father impelling us and all who come to Christ He will not cast out, and that Jesus will lose none of whom the Father has given Him, I don't see how the believer would say no! Remember this argument comes on top of the fact that believers are the chosen from before the foundation of the world.

Maybe you better read the whole of Romans, so you can understand what is in view. It's not about individual election. Let me give you a couple thoughts just on those verses tho': First: this verse alone shows we have the will to oppose God:
"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"
Second: Why would God have to be patient with people who never had a choice? If they were destined for hell from birth, there's nothing to be patient with.

Well Given I have taught it in bible College several times, I think I have read it! You forget that to oppose God is our stance by default! We are dead in our trespasses and sins and CANNOT even perceive the things of God by nature! So to say we can reject God is foolish- we do it naturally! That is our only choice in the flesh! Well as for His patience- You can take that up with God. I don't do mind reading.

So, it actually means the one who is forced to receive him? Funny, it doesn't say that. If God is doing everything it's just God receiving God.

Well show me a verse that says we have free will as lost sinners who are in the flesh that can override what the bible says about us in the flesh and I am willing to listen. Otherwise the bible makes it clear that in the flesh we will never, I repeat, NEVER choose God.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Like I said, these verses substantiate my viewpoint.

I guess you believe in predestination then! Good!

Did the Israelites have free will when Joshua gave the invitation that he gave in Joshua 24:15?

Yes they did, they were gods covenanted people! so they had free will restored in my opinion. They and not the gentiles had the capacity to serve god or not serve God! Once again the bible teaches that once someone is born again, they have their free will restored! Only a believer has the capacity to choose to do things that pleases God. The unbeliever does not have that capacity as Paul clearly said in Romans 8

 

[Renniks]

Well show me a verse that says we have free will as lost sinners who are in the flesh that can override what the bible says about us in the flesh and I am willing to listen. Otherwise the bible makes it clear that in the flesh we will never, I repeat, NEVER choose God.

We should be start here:

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,"

"Heard" and "believed" are humans actions. God did not hear and believe for us.

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

How can we receive him if we have no other option? His gift is not a gift if you can't refuse it. Your theology makes salvation spiritual rape.

 

[Renniks]

And which of the five points is this speaking on? When I say Calvinism on this thread I am referring solely to the five points or TULIP, I do not know the calvin religion, though I did read for church history class the Institutes of the Christian Religion by Calvin over 30 years ago.

I would say arminius's words here: "It is an eternal and gracious decree of God in Christ, by which he determines to justify and adopt believers, and to endow them with eternal life but to condemn unbelievers, and impenitent persons."

Run counter to individual election... He's saying we are elect because of our belief, not because God irresistibly chose individually us before creation.

 

[Renniks]

None of them say we can either! But given the fact the believer is elected (chosen) before the foundation of the world, and that we come to Christ by the Father impelling us and all who come to Christ He will not cast out, and that Jesus will lose none of whom the Father has given Him, I don't see how the believer would say no! Remember this argument comes on top of the fact that believers are the chosen from before the foundation of the world.

Have you ever really studied arminianism?
Where does it say God is impelling us?
It says in John 6 that at all who learn from the father come to him. There are conditions.
All who come are not cast out, but they can fall away by themselves.
He chose a group called believers, not individuals. Anyone is free to join the group or leave it.

 

[Renniks]

Yes they did, they were gods covenanted people! so they had free will restored in my opinion.

Okay let me stop you right there... This makes no sense whatsoever. God constantly complains about his people rebelling against him, and you are contradicting yourself. They could not be individually chosen as believers, or he would have nothing to complain about...so why would they have free will when others didn't?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Sinners come to Christ the same way, for 2000 yrs.
"faith comes by hearing"

Yep but that verse says nothing about free will or predestination. It simply describes how faith is imparted into a heart!

 

[Grailhunter]

No you haven't but given your animosity and false accusations, it is time to put you on ignore! You are really lousy at reading minds and an expert at bearing false witness.

I take no offense to ignore. No harm, no foul!
Or you can review the past posts from me and others....lots and lots and lots of scriptures to prove you wrong.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

God chose everyone, and he died for everyone, wretches that we are. He gave his all, we have nothing to give Him, the least we can do is to accept his free gift of salvation, and you talk as though He forced that on you as well. Have you played any part at all? Because otherwise it sounds as though God abducted you.

And I am glad He did!

All you write is very sweet sounding and sentimental and filled with nice sounding platitudes. but it is not biblical Even Jesus said that we have to enter in the small gate for the super majority go down the broadway to damnation. If He chose all and some reject His choosing- you are saying that our will is stronger than Gods.

Jeremiah was abducted before He was even conceived, Paul was separated in his mothers womb! We are the chosen before the foundation of the world.

Look again:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

chosen by Him to be holy and without blame!
Predestined- not by our choice, but according to the good pleasure of HIS will (not ours)
And another verse that is harsh to our egos.

Romans 9:
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

So it is not of us who will it (free will) but of God!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

We should be start here:

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,"

"Heard" and "believed" are humans actions. God did not hear and believe for us.

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

How can we receive him if we have no other option? His gift is not a gift if you can't refuse it. Your theology makes salvation spiritual rape.

And I agree 100% with those verses!

Yes we have to hear teh words of truth in order for faith to be given to us .

Yes we must place our trust in christ in order to be saved.

But once again, we cannot do that of ourselves!

Romans 8:5-8
King James Version

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


The unsaved only have the flesh!

Romans 7:18
King James Version

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

The flesh has nothing good in it!

1 Corinthians 2:14
King James Version

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

We do not even receive the things of God as unsaved!

So knowing these biblical truths, how does a natural person choose Jesus????

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I would say arminius's words here: "It is an eternal and gracious decree of God in Christ, by which he determines to justify and adopt believers, and to endow them with eternal life but to condemn unbelievers, and impenitent persons."

Run counter to individual election... He's saying we are elect because of our belief, not because God irresistibly chose individually us before creation.

Not in the least! Who are believers- but individuals. Yes we are saved because we believed But that doesnot say it is free will or predestination,

Just like John 3:16. That is a simple statement of fact! It simply says that whoever believes is saved! Period! Nothing about how they get to believe, what the process was that causes one to come to faith. Those are found elsewhere.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Have you ever really studied arminianism?
Where does it say God is impelling us?
It says in John 6 that at all who learn from the father come to him. There are conditions.
All who come are not cast out, but they can fall away by themselves.
He chose a group called believers, not individuals. Anyone is free to join the group or leave it.

The bible says God impels us- I care not what Jacob Arminius or Calvin says. The only condition is faith or trust!

No wonder why you believe in free will. YOu believe that Jesus really didn't die for all your sins! If you believe you can lose your salvation then you are stuck accepting the fact that some of your sins were not paid for by Jesus!

He chose individuals who make up the group! You can't see the trees for the forest!

 

[marks]

How can that be? The saved are the chosen from before the foundation of the world! We do not choose Him, He chose us, before creation! We just say yes by that drawing by god to Himself.

We reject HIm by defaault due to our human nature. I already was rejecting HIm.

OK, thanks! I was looking at your wording,

I had no capacity to choose God until God gave me that capacity.

That capacity to choose, then, wasn't intended to mean that God restores in us, if only at that moment, the capacity to actually choose to believe or not believe.

I think that Jesus is God's "Elect Servant", and that we are "elect in Him", that is to say, when we are baptized into Christ, we share everything He has, including His elect status before the Father.

Much love!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Okay let me stop you right there... This makes no sense whatsoever. God constantly complains about his people rebelling against him, and you are contradicting yourself. They could not be individually chosen as believers, or he would have nothing to complain about...so why would they have free will when others didn't?

You need to read the Old Testament. Israel was and still is Gods covenanted nation! He also dealt with Israel far differently than He deals with the Church! Two different dispensations with two different set of rules

 

[Ronald Nolette]

OK, thanks! I was looking at your wording,

I had no capacity to choose God until God gave me that capacity.

That capacity to choose, then, wasn't intended to mean that God restores in us, if only at that moment, the capacity to actually choose to believe or not believe.

I think that Jesus is God's "Elect Servant", and that we are "elect in Him", that is to say, when we are baptized into Christ, we share everything He has, including His elect status before the Father.

Much love!

Do not let your thoughts stray from Scripture!

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

He chose us! In HIm! but that does not mean we share His Elect status. IN Him, means we are found in Him. Jesus is God the Son and yes served the Father but that is not a corresponding equation.

Remember god is omniscient! He knows past, present, and future! He is not limited by linear time!

We have nothing in SCripture that god gives people a partial restoration to accept or reject. It took me several years of hearing the gospel before I said yes. Does that mean God opened that window a bunch of times? SCripture? God knows who are His-from before the foundation of the world! He knows who are His and those who are not His- from before Creation! Why would He open a "window" to someone He already knew is not His?

 

[Renniks]

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

You know where this is from right?
Exodus 33....where Moses gets in an argument with God and wins.
You read it a certain way, because you have been trained to read a certain way probably by a Calvinist Bible college.

And the Lord said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”

God's actions towards humans are conditioned by their actions, according to scripture.

 

[marks]

Do not let your thoughts stray from Scripture!

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

He chose us! In HIm! but that does not mean we share His Elect status. IN Him, means we are found in Him. Jesus is God the Son and yes served the Father but that is not a corresponding equation.

Remember god is omniscient! He knows past, present, and future! He is not limited by linear time!

We have nothing in SCripture that god gives people a partial restoration to accept or reject. It took me several years of hearing the gospel before I said yes. Does that mean God opened that window a bunch of times? SCripture? God knows who are His-from before the foundation of the world! He knows who are His and those who are not His- from before Creation! Why would He open a "window" to someone He already knew is not His?

He chose us "in Christ". This says to me that God did not choose me for being me, rather, He chose me only in Christ. This has nothing to do with God treating me any differently than anyone else. But it does say that in Christ, I am chosen.

It doesn't say that God chose me to be in Christ, but that I am chosen in Christ. So the underlying fact that support all else is that I am in Christ.

Ephesians 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

It is in Christ that we receive all spiritual blessings in heavenly places. The material blessings, lots of them are waiting, like the redemption of our bodies.

Why would God tell Adam to not eat from a tree God knew He would eat from?

Much love!