Calvinism vs. Arminianism

[Ronald Nolette]

Nope, who is talking here?:

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Not the reader.

I'll give you a hint, it's the same person that's talking here:
Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” 8 Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!

So Paul was only addressing a rhetorical speaker? You are not that naive'. God made it for teh reader, that is why He inspired Paul to write it, and God preserved it to insure it became part of the New Testament!. YOU sure wish to put alot of parentheses around lots of the New Testament and say they don't apply to us.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

He did, as I already showed you.

No you simply showed statemetns of simple fact. They did not show free will or election or how one comes to choose to accept Christ, they just show that those who do get this, that or something else. That is all. don't take my word for it, look it up in a greek parsing guide and see for yourself.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What part of this is hard to understand?

And the Lord said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”

Determinism is nonsense according to scripture.
God often makes "if" "then" statements to his people.

IF My people, who are called by My name, will humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways; THEN will I hear from Heaven and heal their Land.”

IF you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, (THEN) you may say to this mountain, “Remove from here to over there; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.”

When ye stand praying, forgive, IF ye have anything against anyone, so that your Father also, which is in Heaven (THEN) may forgive you your trespasses. But IF you do not forgive others, (THEN) neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”

Well you were wrong to tag me as a Calvinist. Now are you wanting to double down and label me falsely as a determinist as well? Well let me give you a free lesson in Greek grammar.

Almost every single conditional statement you try to show are what are known as in the subjunctive mood. It is a mood of possibility to show that Jesus or one of the Apostl;es are not speaking to someone specifically but making a general statement. It is a statement meant to convey that the speaker or writer does not know all who will take up the IF.

I actuall was a free willer, until I got down to learning how to parse the sentences and learn what moods meant and th elike. Then I looked at all the verses to defend free will in correct light!

You cannot say man has free will and also say no man can come to christ unless the Father impels them. You cannot say an unsaved man has free will to choose God (something pleasing to god) and at teh same time have god say that those in the flesh cannot please god and that in our flesh dwells nothing good.

 

[Behold]

Yep but that verse says nothing about free will or predestination. It simply describes how faith is imparted into a heart!

No verses talk about predestination, as a type of substitution for a person's free will.

You have the "elect" who are predestined to be "conformed"... but that is not talking about freewill.
That is talking about the end result of being born again.

 

[marks]

Almost every single conditional statement you try to show are what are known as in the subjunctive mood. It is a mood of possibility to show that Jesus or one of the Apostl;es are not speaking to someone specifically but making a general statement. It is a statement meant to convey that the speaker or writer does not know all who will take up the IF.

This may be more than any of us want to know about the Koine Greek Subjunctive Mood of possibilities and probabilities.

More Detailed Use of the Greek Subjunctive Mood - Framed View

Introduction to Subjunctive Mood

1. As stated in the area giving a short definition of the subjunctive mood, the subjunctive indicates probability or objective possibility. The action of the verb will possibly happen, depending on certain objective factors or circumstances. It has a number of specific uses and is oftentimes used in conditional statements (i.e. 'If...then...' clauses) or in purpose clauses.

2. However, if the subjunctive mood was used in isolation it may be accurate to merely call it the mood of probability, but this is an overly simplistic view when you look at how it is used in the NT. As seen by the classification of its uses (below), it is almost never used in making a kind of objective statement that something will possibly happen. It must be seen in context to understand how it used.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You cannot say man has free will and also say no man can come to christ unless the Father impels them.

Jesus said, No one comes to me unless the Father draw them, but He also said, If I be lifted up, I will draw all men to myself. So there was a change.

Much love!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I'm thinking in eternity these sorts of questions will be behind us.

Much love!

Yes, but until then we are commanded to study to show ourselves approved! And if it is in the New Testament we do well to study well.

 

[marks]

https://www.ntgreek.org/pdf/subjunctive_uses.pdf

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What part of this is hard to understand?

And the Lord said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”

Moses belonged to the Lord! He had free will restored to Him.

 

[marks]

Yes, but until then we are commanded to study to show ourselves approved! And if it is in the New Testament we do well to study well.

There's not much more important in my life. These three things . . . Knowing God, knowing His Word, and loving my wife.

Much love!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

IF My people, who are called by My name, will humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways; THEN will I hear from Heaven and heal their Land.”

IF you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, (THEN) you may say to this mountain, “Remove from here to over there; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.”

When ye stand praying, forgive, IF ye have anything against anyone, so that your Father also, which is in Heaven (THEN) may forgive you your trespasses. But IF you do not forgive others, (THEN) neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”

And these are not soteriological issues. Once again predestination only has to do with who gets saved and who doesn't! Not what happens after one is saved and has free will restored to them.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No verses talk about predestination, as a type of substitution for a person's free will.

You have the "elect" who are predestined to be "conformed"... but that is not talking about freewill.
That is talking about the end result of being born again.

Well seeing as we are the elect BEFORE the foundation of teh world- that occurred long time before we were born again! Predestination also happens before we are born again-

And there is no verse you find that mystical ephemeral concept called free will in unsaved man.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This may be more than any of us want to know about the Koine Greek Subjunctive Mood of possibilities and probabilities.

More Detailed Use of the Greek Subjunctive Mood - Framed View



Much love!

Enjoy teh studying. If you wish to be one who keeps the Sword of the spirit as sharp as a razor and knows how to wield it very effectively!

 

[Renniks]

L

Paul and Jesus both had a predestination view of soteriology. Maybe the 3 and 4th century churches strayed and held to free will, but it is not biblical.

Lol, you have that exactly backwards... For the first 300 years everyone confirmed free will, it wasn't till Augustine that it was questioned, except among Gnostic heretics.

Tertullian (Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus) 160-225 AD:
I find, then, that man was constituted free by God. He was master of his own will and power…For a law would not be imposed upon one who did not have it in his power to render that obedience which is due to law. Nor again, would the penalty of death be threatened against sin, if a contempt of the law were impossible to man in the liberty of his will…Man is free, with a will either for obedience of resistance. (c. 207, Vol. 3, pp. 300-301)

No reward can be justly bestowed, no punishment can be justly inflicted, upon him who is good or bad by necessity, and not by his own choice. (c. 207) (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, p. 61, published by Truth in Heart)

Some people act as though God were under an obligation to bestow even on the unworthy His intended gift. They turn His liberality into slavery…. For do not many afterwards fall out of grace? Is not this gift taken away from many? (Tertullian On Repentance chap. 6.)

The world returned to sin…and so it is destined to fire. So is the man who after baptism renews his sins. c.197

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jesus said, No one comes to me unless the Father draw them, but He also said, If I be lifted up, I will draw all men to myself. So there was a change.

Much love!

Well looking at it superficially- one has to believe universalism!

But yes Jesus will draw men to Himself, but see the big difference? One the Father draws to jesus, the other Jesus draws by Himself! And yet also there are untold billions who are never drawn because in the greek they are different case, voice, mood, number so they have a very big nuance of difference.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

https://www.ntgreek.org/pdf/subjunctive_uses.pdf

View attachment 13702

The force is with you young padewan!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There's not much more important in my life. These three things . . . Knowing God, knowing His Word, and loving my wife.

Much love!

We do the first two as we are supposed to, then #3 and all the rest will be taken care of in proper order and intensity!

 

[Renniks]

So Paul was only addressing a rhetorical speaker? You are not that naive'. God made it for teh reader, that is why He inspired Paul to write it, and God preserved it to insure it became part of the New Testament!. YOU sure wish to put alot of parentheses around lots of the New Testament and say they don't apply to us.

The objector was obviously a rebellious Jew. Look at what he was objecting to. He was also wrong about not being able to resist God's will... And ironically he was doing just that.

 

[marks]

Enjoy teh studying. If you wish to be one who keeps the Sword of the spirit as sharp as a razor and knows how to wield it very effectively!

Amen!

Suffice to say, I need charts like this to help me keep track. Greek class was a LONG time ago! But then, I have brain like a steel seive! I mean steel trap!

Anything disturbs it, it snaps tightly shut, and is very hard to reopen. And watch your fingers if you try!

;)

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Lol, you have that exactly backwards... For the first 300 years everyone confirmed free will, it wasn't till Augustine that it was questioned, except among Gnostic heretics.

Tertullian (Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus) 160-225 AD:
I find, then, that man was constituted free by God. He was master of his own will and power…For a law would not be imposed upon one who did not have it in his power to render that obedience which is due to law. Nor again, would the penalty of death be threatened against sin, if a contempt of the law were impossible to man in the liberty of his will…Man is free, with a will either for obedience of resistance. (c. 207, Vol. 3, pp. 300-301)

No reward can be justly bestowed, no punishment can be justly inflicted, upon him who is good or bad by necessity, and not by his own choice. (c. 207) (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, p. 61, published by Truth in Heart)

Some people act as though God were under an obligation to bestow even on the unworthy His intended gift. They turn His liberality into slavery…. For do not many afterwards fall out of grace? Is not this gift taken away from many? (Tertullian On Repentance chap. 6.)

The world returned to sin…and so it is destined to fire. So is the man who after baptism renews his sins. c.197

Well Tertullian is not the bible! He believed you could lose your salvation so that skews his whole theology terribly!

and His Words contradict the New Testament unless of course you are of the belief that all those detewrministic verses were just for the Apostles, ephesians and Romans and Corinthians and the rest of us are left with free will that doesn't show up in the bible except by philosophical deduction and not sound exegeses.