Books Outside the Bible

[BreadOfLife]

Did not see it.

But i did see ones with Walter Martin, John Ankerber, etc.

Thr RCC theologian was forced to admit such as the Church is built on Christ (Petra), not Peter (Petros) and Peter never was the Bishop of Rome or ever went to Rome in the Bible.

WRONG.

I'll bet you can't give me the NAME of the Catholic apologist . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

What counts is practising Acts 2.42 at a local level rather than trying to achieve a huge corporate conglomoration.

WRONG.
It's FACTIONALISM - and it's condemned in Scripture.

 

[BreadOfLife]

It said all that was needed.

No - it was a cowardly NON-answer . . .

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Again – I have the HOPE of salvation because I have cooperated with God’s grace and continue to. Because we have a free will, however, I could walk away from Christ at ANY point in my life and not return. I would then be LOST.

I believe that if I were to drop dead right now, that I would be with Christ – after quite possibly undergoing a final purgation.

I saw your name on the limbo list.....

 

[BreadOfLife]

I saw your name on the limbo list.....

Thanks for that PRIME example of why nobody takes you seriously . . .

 

[Prayer Warrior]

This is a perfect example of a charitable post that doesn’t resort to lies or myths and simply addresses concerns and disagreements with the Catholic Church. Granted, there are some of the usual inaccuracies in your post – but EVERY anti-Catholic reading this should take heed and follow this example . . .

The problem I see with what you wrote is that you claim that Protestants turn to Scripture for all of the answers – but Scripture tells us to turn to the CHURCH (Matt. 16:18-19 Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23). In short – the main pillars of Protestantism Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide simply aren’t supported by the Scriptures.

As for the schism with the Eastern Orthodox Churches – this does not include all of the renegade pseudo-“Catholic” factions that you see today like the “SSPX”, “Old Catholic Church”, “American Catholic Church, “Polish Catholic Church”, et al. these are Protestant factions who have divorced themselves from the Catholic Church and formed their own ecclesiology.

I'm glad that you see my post as being charitable; that's how it was intended. I've read other posts to you that were also very charitable. Thanks for being charitable yourself and for reading my entire post. I get the feeling that many don't bother to read all of what I've said and then respond to what they think I'm saying. You said that all anti-Catholics should take heed and follow my example. Should this not apply to Catholics as well??

There are a few inaccuracies and omissions in your post concerning what I said. First, I said that Protestants turn to the Bible AND the Holy Spirit to guide us in how we are to live as Christians. The Holy Spirit is an essential element in the Christian's walk and life. Jesus told His disciples that the Spirit was with them, but would be IN them. He also said that He would not leave them as orphans, but would send the Holy Spirit as their Helper.

The Holy Spirit has inspired and "helped" men to write the scriptures; they are Spirit-breathed. Likewise, the Holy Spirit gives us understanding of the scriptures that is beyond mere intellectual knowledge. Also, I believe that the Holy Spirit guides those translating (at least those seeking to write an accurate translation). And I believe that the Holy Spirit guided the careful selection of which books to include in the Bible.... So, our Bible is the result of the Holy Spirit's work in and through people from beginning to end.

Thanks for listing the Bible verses in your response. I actually read each one. Surely, you know what I would say to using these verses to support the idea that we should turn to a church rather than the Bible. I don't see any way at all to interpret these verses as you have. IOW, it's a REAL stretch!

Also, in my post I mentioned unbiblical Catholic dogma. I'll have to address that later. I must get back to work!

 

[BreadOfLife]

I'm glad that you see my post as being charitable; that's how it was intended. I've read other posts to you that were also very charitable. Thanks for being charitable yourself and for reading my entire post. I get the feeling that many don't bother to read all of what I've said and then respond to what they think I'm saying. You said that all anti-Catholics should take heed and follow my example. Should this not apply to Catholics as well??

There are a few inaccuracies and omissions in your post concerning what I said. First, I said that Protestants turn to the Bible AND the Holy Spirit to guide us in how we are to live as Christians. The Holy Spirit is an essential element in the Christian's walk and life. Jesus told His disciples that the Spirit was with them, but would be IN them. He also said that He would not leave them as orphans, but would send the Holy Spirit as their Helper.

The Holy Spirit has inspired and "helped" men to write the scriptures; they are Spirit-breathed. Likewise, the Holy Spirit gives us understanding of the scriptures that is beyond mere intellectual knowledge. Also, I believe that the Holy Spirit guides those translating (at least those seeking to write an accurate translation). And I believe that the Holy Spirit guided the careful selection of which books to include in the Bible.... So, our Bible is the result of the Holy Spirit's work in and through people from beginning to end.

Thanks for listing the Bible verses in your response. I actually read each one. Surely, you know what I would say to using these verses to support the idea that we should turn to a church rather than the Bible. I don't see any way at all to interpret these verses as you have. IOW, it's a REAL stretch!

Also, in my post I mentioned unbiblical Catholic dogma. I'll have to address that later. I must get back to work!

Well, first of all – it pertains to ANBODYwho chooses to regurgitate lies and myths instead of asking questions and researching their claims.

Secondly – I didn’t count out that Scripture is authoritative – it IS. I simply stated what the Bible itself admonishes – that the Church is the final earthly Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

Finally – saying that the individual learns learn from Scripture and the Holy Spirit is not what Scripture itself teaches - in context. Scripture teaches that we learn from the Church, which is guided by the Holy Spirit to ALL truth (John 16:12-15, 2 Thess. 2:15). The Scriptures hadn't yet been completed or canonized . . .

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Thanks for that PRIME example of why nobody takes you seriously . . .

There you go, lying again.
Lots of people take me seriously, and they love it when I slam the door on your inane reasoning.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Well, first of all – it pertains to ANBODYwho chooses to regurgitate lies and myths instead of asking questions and researching their claims.

Secondly – I didn’t count out that Scripture is authoritative – it IS. I simply stated what the Bible itself admonishes – that the Church is the final earthly Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

Finally – saying that the individual learns learn from Scripture and the Holy Spirit is not what Scripture itself teaches - in context. Scripture teaches that we learn from the Church, which is guided by the Holy Spirit to ALL truth (John 16:12-15, 2 Thess. 2:15).

You and I disagree about MAN being the final authority. That's what you're saying when you say the Church is the final authority. That's why the pope is considered infallible.

You misrepresented John 16:13. In this verse Jesus actually said, "When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you INTO all truth." There's a big difference between saying that He will guide us TO all truth. The Spirit doesn't just guide us to it; He guides us INTO it. IOW, we cannot fully understand the truth apart from the Holy Spirit.

The Church, meaning all Christians, should be continually guided by the Holy Spirit (as Paul admonishes us in Romans 8), but I don't know any Christians, including myself, who constantly yield to the guidance of the Spirit. It's a daily, even moment-by-moment, practice of taking up our cross (i.e. reckoning the flesh as crucified) and following Jesus (by the power of the Spirit) as new creations in Him.

So, to say that we should listen to man rather than going straight to the scriptures is downright dangerous. We should listen to good teachers and compare everything we hear with the scriptures as the Bereans did with Paul. (They compared everything he said with the scriptures that had been completed at that point.) We hold onto what is scriptural and discard anything that goes against scripture.

 

[BreadOfLife]

There you go, lying again.
Lots of people take me seriously, and they love it when I slam the door on your inane reasoning.

I suspect you’ve never slammed the door on anything but your own fingers. You’ve certainly never made valid case for anything on this forum – whether it was your usual anti-Catholic drivel or some other inane diatribe.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You and I disagree about MAN being the final authority. That's what you're saying when you say the Church is the final authority. That's why the pope is considered infallible.

You misrepresented John 16:13. In this verse Jesus actually said, "When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you INTO all truth." There's a big difference between saying that He will guide us TO all truth. The Spirit doesn't just guide us to it; He guides us INTO it. IOW, we cannot fully understand the truth apart from the Holy Spirit.

The Church, meaning all Christians, should be continually guided by the Holy Spirit (as Paul admonishes us in Romans 8), but I don't know any Christians, including myself, who constantly yield to the guidance of the Spirit. It's a daily, even moment-by-moment, practice of taking up our cross (i.e. reckoning the flesh as crucified) and following Jesus (by the power of the Spirit) as new creations in Him.

So, to say that we should listen to man rather than going straight to the scriptures is downright dangerous. We should listen to good teachers and compare everything we hear with the scriptures as the Bereans did with Paul. (They compared everything he said with the scriptures that had been completed at that point.) We hold onto what is scriptural and discard anything that goes against scripture.

Actually – your understanding of the Catholic position is in error.

First of all – the Church is the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12, Col 1:18). Jesus equated His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5). He gave His Church, which is His very Body- Supreme earthly Authority, that WHATEVER His Church ordained on earth would also be ordained in Heaven. Not “some” things or “many” things - -but ALL things.

THIS is the context in which Church Authority must be understood. It is God-given, not self-appointed.
As for John 16:12-15, tis does NOT apply to the individual, but to the BODY of Christ as a whole. As we read in 1 Cor. 12 – NONE of us is the Body by ourselves. We are all simply PARTS of the Body. The very best evidence that I could give you is the fact that there are tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering factions of Protestantism that ALLteach different doctrines – and whose founders ALL claim to have been “led” there by none other than the Holy Spirit.

God is NOT the Author of confusion – but of UNITY (John 17:21-23).

 

[bbyrd009]

There you go, lying again.
Lots of people take me seriously, and they love it when I slam the door on your inane reasoning.

i liked him better when he used colors too lol

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I suspect you’ve never slammed the door on anything but your own fingers. You’ve certainly never made valid case for anything on this forum – whether it was your usual anti-Catholic drivel or some other inane diatribe.

Oh really?
I do diatribe?
Then what do you do?
One thing about you is your phantasmagorical look into fantasy as reality.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Actually – your understanding of the Catholic position is in error.

First of all – the Church is the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12, Col 1:18). Jesus equated His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5). He gave His Church, which is His very Body- Supreme earthly Authority, that WHATEVER His Church ordained on earth would also be ordained in Heaven. Not “some” things or “many” things - -but ALL things.

THIS is the context in which Church Authority must be understood. It is God-given, not self-appointed.
As for John 16:12-15, tis does NOT apply to the individual, but to the BODY of Christ as a whole. As we read in 1 Cor. 12 – NONE of us is the Body by ourselves. We are all simply PARTS of the Body. The very best evidence that I could give you is the fact that there are tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering factions of Protestantism that ALLteach different doctrines – and whose founders ALL claim to have been “led” there by none other than the Holy Spirit.

God is NOT the Author of confusion – but of UNITY (John 17:21-23).

When you say that "Jesus equated His very Self with His Church," are you referring to the so-called "Mystical Body of Jesus Christ"? The Catholic Dictionary gives the following as their definition of the term mystical body:

The Catholic Church established by Christ as an extension and continuation of the Incarnation.​

In the words of Pius XII, "If we would define and describe the true Church of Jesus Christ -- which is the one, holy, Catholic, apostolic Roman Church -- we shall find nothing more noble, more sublime, or more divine than the expression 'the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ' -- an expression that flows spontaneously from the repeated teaching of the sacred Scriptures and the holy Fathers...."

Moreover, the Roman Catholic Church regards herself as the Body of Christ. He was the originator of the Church by his preaching and choice of the Apostles to carry on his work, by his death on the Cross when he merited the graces to be channeled through the Mystical Body, and by the descent of the Holy Spirit, whom he sent on Pentecost. He continues to rule the Church from within by supernatural means that are permanent and constantly active within the members.
(emphasis not in the original)​

In other words, the Catholic Church, and only the Catholic Church, is believed to be the body of Christ. Let's make that clear right here and now. Also, according to Pope Pius XII, the expression "the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ" is "divine." This entry calls the Catholic Church a "continuation of the Incarnation." And it says that Jesus is "channeled through the Mystical Body."

Wow! Sounds like New Age mysticism/pantheism! I thought I detected a hint of it in your post, but I did some research to make sure. This is what you believe in--a mystical or "divine unity"?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Oh really?
I do diatribe?
Then what do you do?
One thing about you is your phantasmagorical look into fantasy as reality.

I REST my case . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

When you say that "Jesus equated His very Self with His Church," are you referring to the so-called "Mystical Body of Jesus Christ"?
The Catholic Dictionary gives the following as their definition of the term mystical body:

The Catholic Church established by Christ as an extension and continuation of the Incarnation.​

In the words of Pius XII, "If we would define and describe the true Church of Jesus Christ -- which is the one, holy, Catholic, apostolic Roman Church -- we shall find nothing more noble, more sublime, or more divine than the expression 'the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ' -- an expression that flows spontaneously from the repeated teaching of the sacred Scriptures and the holy Fathers...."

Moreover, the Roman Catholic Church regards herself as the Body of Christ. He was the originator of the Church by his preaching and choice of the Apostles to carry on his work, by his death on the Cross when he merited the graces to be channeled through the Mystical Body, and by the descent of the Holy Spirit, whom he sent on Pentecost. He continues to rule the Church from within by supernatural means that are permanent and constantly active within the members.
(emphasis not in the original)​

In other words, the Catholic Church, and only the Catholic Church, is believed to be the body of Christ. Let's make that clear right here and now. Also, according to Pope Pius XII, the expression "the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ" is "divine." This entry calls the Catholic Church a "continuation of the Incarnation." And it says that Jesus is "channeled through the Mystical Body."

Wow! Sounds like New Age mysticism/pantheism! I thought I detected a hint of it in your post, but I did some research to make sure. This is what you believe in--a mystical or "divine unity"?

When Jesus approached Saul on the Road to Damascus - He said to him:
Acts 9:4-5
“Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting ME?”
He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

Saul was persecuting Christ's CHURCH, yet Jesus chose to equate His very SELF with His Church.
THIS is the mystical continuation of the Incarnation that we're talking about. The Church is Christ on earth. There is nothing "Pantheistic" or "New Age" about it. It's 100% BIBLICAL. Do you even know what Pantheism is??

Many of your "anti" Catholic beliefs come from a complete misunderstanding of what it is that we actually believe in.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

When Jesus approached Saul on the Road to Damascus - He said to him:
Acts 9:4-5
“Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting ME?”
He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

Saul was persecuting Christ's CHURCH, yet Jesus chose to equate His very SELF with His Church.
THIS is the mystical continuation of the Incarnation that we're talking about. The Church is Christ on earth. There is nothing "Pantheistic" or "New Age" about it. It's 100% BIBLICAL. Do you even know what Pantheism is??

Many of your "anti" Catholic beliefs come from a complete misunderstanding of what it is that we actually believe in.

Do you believe that the Church is divine?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Do you believe that the Church is divine?

The Church was instituted by Christ, who is God. It has BOTH human and divine elements as the Body of Christ.

The Catechism states that the Church is “one complex reality which comes together from a human and a divine element” (771).

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Do you believe that the pope is divine?

 

[Prayer Warrior]

The Church was instituted by Christ, who is God. It has BOTH human and divine elements as the Body of Christ.

The Catechism states that the Church is “one complex reality which comes together from a human and a divine element” (771).

This is what you said earlier: "Jesus chose to equate His very SELF with His Church. THIS is the mystical continuation of the Incarnation that we're talking about. The Church is Christ on earth."

The church is made up of human beings, right? Jesus Christ, while He was born fully human, is divine; He is God. And yet the Catholic Church is teaching that "the Church is Christ" as the "mystical continuation of the Incarnation"? The incarnation is God becoming man (the Word became flesh). It certainly looks as though the Catholic Church is teaching that its members (i.e. human beings) are believed to be divine in some way. And yet, the only human being who has ever been divine, (i.e. who has ever been God), is Jesus Christ!

I know, I know, I just don't understand the Catholic position.......... I've been a student of the Bible for over 40 years, but Catholic doctrine doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps if Catholic doctrine was actually based on the Bible, I would understand it. But I have come to see Catholic doctrine as a massive labyrinth of unbiblical beliefs birthed in man's darkened, untransformed mind. I pray for the freedom of all who are trapped in this labyrinth!