Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author

[O'Darby]

Right. What's the fruit?
It also leads to tribalism. They aren't studying the Bible to grow closer to God.
They read it to arm themselves AGAINST other believers. The "us and them" mentality.

On another topic a poster said that part of my premise statement "Jesus is the answer" was unbiblical. - LOL

Bingo - you mentioned the one defining biggie I forgot. Those caught in the snare of Biblioloatry spend most of their time arguing with other believers as to what is biblical (i.e., what I think the Bible says) and what isn't (what you think the Bible says). Which only serves to underscore the absurdity. We don't worship the Bible - we worship our preferred interpretation, which gets pretty close to worshipping ourselves.

When a guest says something like "I've always been a Packers fan" or "I really prefer Chinese restaurants," one Christian radio host who has a wry sense of humor will always say "You got Scripture to support that?"

 

[O'Darby]

No, Reformation theology has not been kind to our family "mystics", but I understand the reason why. There's no Quality Control checks on communion with the Living God. The Reformation was all about putting some badly-needed quality control checks on God's people.

That is true. But it's only problem if I take my communion with God out into the public arena: "Here is what God told me yesterday, and now I'm telling YOU because YOU need to hear it. Take it from me, this is straight from God."

I just spent a great deal of time on another forum where a self-appointed Mystic (his forum name) has spent something like 50,000 posts attempting to rewrite Christianity on the basis of a single meditative experience he "thinks" was Jesus. That Jesus was the classic New Age Guru of Love who judges no one. And, of course, he had an enthusiastic following, even among atheists.

I'm really talking about personal, prayerful communion - not mystical experiences or startling revelations. The Eastern Orthodox have a strong mystical tradition, but they recognize that all experiences must be measured against Scripture, church tradition and what the Christian community has always believed. As far as I can tell, they regard most Catholic mystics as overwrought nutcases.

 

[O'Darby]

What was life like before this book?

The Cloud of Unknowing is not my bible. I am not caught in the snare of Cloudolatry. It is simply a well-known Christian classic that has survived the test of 650 years. I first encountered it perhaps 35 years ago. It was written by a monastic for fellow monastics as a technique for entering into deep communion with God. Reading it is completely unnecessary to such communion. I simply mentioned for the benefit of those who may not be familiar with it.

I entered Christianity through Campus Crusade for Christ and was steered to Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary by enthusiastic Southern Baptist pastors. It took me only a short time to realize I was on the path of a shallow and shaky, infantile sort of faith. My road to deeper communion has been long and gradual.

Nice try.

 

[Lambano]

That is true. But it's only problem if I take my communion with God out into the public arena: "Here is what God told me yesterday, and now I'm telling YOU because YOU need to hear it. Take it from me, this is straight from God."

Yeah, but that's almost inevitable. How can communion with God NOT affect one's public behavior? And what DO you do if in prayerful communion you hear orders to pass on a certain "word of knowledge"? (I've had that situation just one time, and it worked itself out just fine, thank you Lord, but I found the whole experience disturbing.)

The Eastern Orthodox have a strong mystical tradition, but they recognize that all experiences must be measured against Scripture, church tradition and what the Christian community has always believed.

Sounds very Wesleyan (my own church tradition). Quality control includes checking against scripture (there it is again!), reason, church tradition, and experience. And it helps to have a few brothers and sisters in Christ whom you can trust to call "b***s***" on you.

And yet...

 

[St. SteVen]

O'Darby said:
That is true. But it's only problem if I take my communion with God out into the public arena: "Here is what God told me yesterday, and now I'm telling YOU because YOU need to hear it. Take it from me, this is straight from God."

Yeah, but that's almost inevitable. How can communion with God NOT affect one's public behavior? And what DO you do if in prayerful communion you hear orders to pass on a certain "word of knowledge"? (I've had that situation just one time, and it worked itself out just fine, thank you Lord, but I found the whole experience disturbing.)

I agree with both of you.

O'Darby is correct in that what God says to us PERSONALLY may not (probably isn't) for everyone.
And to behave that way is to "play the God card". IMHO
If I declare that God told me what you are to do, this is immediately suspect.
And immature Christians are at risk of believing you.
I actually had a church pastor call me to say that they asked God who should take care of
a certain task at church and my name came to mind. I lost ALL respect for that person.
God didn't confirm their claim.

Lambano is correct in that if God actually DOES tell us to deliver a message to someone, we should do it.
However, this needs to be done with care. Slapping them with a "Thus saith the Lord..." is probably the wrong approach.
Better to suggest what God wants and let God confirm it to them. IMHO

Lambano, tell us how that situation worked itself out? Will it be easier if there is a next time?

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[O'Darby]

Yeah, but that's almost inevitable. How can communion with God NOT affect one's public behavior? And what DO you do if in prayerful communion you hear orders to pass on a certain "word of knowledge"? (I've had that situation just one time, and it worked itself out just fine, thank you Lord, but I found the whole experience disturbing.)

Sounds very Wesleyan (my own church tradition). Quality control includes checking against scripture (there it is again!), reason, church tradition, and experience. And it helps to have a few brothers and sisters in Christ whom you can trust to call "b***s***" on you.

And yet...

I actually have never heard any sort of order to pass anything on or even any startling revelation. To me, communion is really more in the vein of simply quietly basking in the presence of God and letting this have whatever effect it may have. This is why The Cloud struck me as so similar to Zen meditation, which is "simply sitting." I've never been a Zen practitioner but have read extensively because I find Zen koans fascinating. (Lest anyone come unglued, know that Zen practice does not require any particular Buddhist beliefs, numerous Christian scholars and mystics have noted the affinity between Zen and Christianity, and it has even been noted how many of Jesus' quirky statements have a Zen-master quality to them.)

I suppose my communion inevitably does affect my public persona even on forums such as this, but hopefully not to the extent of pushing myself as having unique insights into God. If someone wants to call BS on me, that's fine. I am sufficiently undogmatic that I cheerfully acknowledge that anything from Young Earth Fundamentalism to materialistic atheism theoretically could be true. All we each can do is live by the convictions at which we've arrived.

 

[St. SteVen]

Lest anyone come unglued...

LOL
Always the risk around here.
And in the church in general. IMHO

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[St. SteVen]

I suppose my communion inevitably does affect my public persona even on forums such as this, but hopefully not to the extent of pushing myself as having unique insights into God. If someone wants to call BS on me, that's fine. I am sufficiently undogmatic that I cheerfully acknowledge that anything from Young Earth Fundamentalism to materialistic atheism theoretically could be true. All we each can do is live by the convictions at which we've arrived.

On the other hand, we know that God DOES call Prophets at times to speak forth a message, as we see in the Biblical record.
However, I agree that we should not take it upon ourselves to self-proclaim ourselves in the role of Prophet.
For current practice, I prefer this definition of prophecy.

1 Corinthians 14:3 NIV
But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.

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[amigo de christo]

How does that build a relationship with the author?

- Obeying a BOOK. ???
- Praying because a BOOK says you should. ???

Still sounds like a relationship with a BOOK instead of the author.
Does God speak to you when you are NOT reading the BOOK?

A relationship is two-way communication.

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most folks have a relationship with their own flesh .
forgetting WHO INSPIRED the BIBLE . thus if its in the bible GUESS WHO inspired it .
Deconstruction is deadly .
they often use words just like you do to usher in confusion and to make it seem as though
those who BY the SPIRIT , the same SPIRIT that INSPIRED THE SCRIPS , are worshipping something other than GOD
just cause they STICK to the book GOD INSPIRED . Talk about delusion .
TEST the spirits . Many voices , many peoples who preach n teach falsehoods are all around the peoples .
Most folks i see are having a relationship With their own mind , with the flesh and oh yes
they love to go after those who stick to a book GOD INSPIRED and make them seem as though they are in error .
MY ADVICE , GET a heavy dose of bible reading and test all who do speak , even a thought in your head
AGAINST that which is written IN the BIBLE that was INSPIRED by the very GOD , that most think they follow and yet DONT .

 

[amigo de christo]

On the other hand, we know that God DOES call Prophets at times to speak forth a message, as we see in the Biblical record.
However, I agree that we should not take it upon ourselves to self-proclaim ourselves in the role of Prophet.
For current practice, I prefer this definition of prophecy.

1 Corinthians 14:3 NIV
But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.

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Yes prophets do still exist . and any and all , even if they claim thus sayeth the LORD , their words must be tested .
IF said words do not contradict that which is written in scripture , it came of GOD
but if them words do contradict , BE WARNED IT AINT COMING FROM GOD at all . And must be quickly not heeded
and corrected . Many speak a word they believe they heard of GOD and yet that word
contradicts that WHICH GOD DID INSPIRE in that bible . THUS it gets DENIED by this lamb and should be denied
by all who claim the name of Christ .
I have never seen a delusion like the one i see today . This delusion is gaining ground over all christendom
this delusion cometh in the name of what it calls love , of what is common amongst the world and all false religoins .
It has found the common ground love which will indeed unify the world and her religoins as one .
Under THE DARK ONE HIMSELF . to them they see it as GOD , as LOVE and believe it .
To the lambs THEY REJECT IT , just like its love has rejected GOD and certain of the scrips HE DID INSPIRE .
A love is building and its causing hatred to rise up against TRUTH , against GOD , against certain scrips .
OH ITS fast to hug and holler unity , but its unity IS NOT UNDER GOD , UNDER CHRIST
WE BETTER watch out , be on gaurd and beware for its men are many and its father be the dragon and its mother THE HARLOT .

 

[Lambano]

Lambano, tell us how that situation worked itself out? Will it be easier if there is a next time?

Not much to tell. Nobody but me was told to do anything. The person I was praying for (and later circumstances) confirmed that what I had been told was correct. They were encouraged, and their situation has since improved remarkably (may God be thanked and praised!), so I'm happy about that. But while I did what I was told, I don't think I handled things well, and I don't know if God will let there be a next time.

 

[Spyder]

I find this interesting:

Yes prophets do still exist . and any and all , even if they claim thus sayeth the LORD , their words must be tested .
IF said words do not contradict that which is written in scripture , it came of GOD

If scripture already says something, why would God send a prophet to repeat it?

 

[Hillsage]

most folks have a relationship with their own flesh .

Of course we do. If you believe we are a trinity our whole person is spirit, soul, flesh. But the real question is, does your soul listen to your born again spirit, or does it listen to your sin natured flesh?

forgetting WHO INSPIRED the BIBLE . thus if its in the bible GUESS WHO inspired it .
Deconstruction is deadly .

Don't forget where deconstruction got its start.

OT JER 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.

NT CO 1:12 What I mean is that each one of you says, "I belong to Paul," or "I belong to Apollos," or "I belong to Cephas," or "I belong to Christ."

And how about the church of Rome which gained political/religious power and equally lost the supernatural power IMO. I personally think the great apostasy began a long time ago.

they often use words just like you do to usher in confusion and to make it seem as though
those who BY the SPIRIT , the same SPIRIT that INSPIRED THE SCRIPS , are worshipping something other than GOD
just cause they STICK to the book GOD INSPIRED . Talk about delusion .

Yes it is delusion, to think that the many translations held in the hand of believers are THE INSPIRED version of 'the original autograph'. My first bible in the Jesus Revolution of 72 was THE LIVING BIBLE!!! A flipping PARAPHRASE. After receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit 6 months after getting saved, I was sitting in a circle of believers as we took turns reading our BIBLES. After a couple of weeks the holy spirit of Christ in me said; "Get a different bible." And I did.

TEST the spirits . Many voices , many peoples who preach n teach falsehoods are all around the peoples .
Most folks i see are having a relationship With their own mind , with the flesh

Of course WE ARE ALL "having a relationship" with our total being which includes mind and flesh. The one thing lacking in your advice above, is what spirit are you using to "TEST the spirits". Therein is the big deception IMO.

 

[St. SteVen]

If scripture already says something, why would God send a prophet to repeat it?

Sheep need a shepherd.

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[Hillsage]

I find this interesting:

Yes prophets do still exist . and any and all , even if they claim thus sayeth the LORD , their words must be tested .
IF said words do not contradict that which is written in scripture , it came of GOD

If scripture already says something, why would God send a prophet to repeat it?

Maybe there are prophets speaking here, calling out the translations of false profits????

I found the following quote in a USED 'Christian book store' in Kansas City 30 years ago; I thought he spoke it well.

"In the past, men of God, moved by the Spirit of God, wrote down what God laid on their heart.
Then they took it to a publisher to see if they would print it.

Today, publishers of Christian literature, moved by the Spirit of the bottom line, approach name brand
authors to have research teams produce books on hot button subject, to compete with other publishers.

I'm a used book dealer....Bob Steel"

 

[St. SteVen]

Sheep need a shepherd.

/

--- PARODY ---

Sermon notes.

Church Pastor: Today's sermon text is taken from Romans chapter 8.
Church member: (raises hand) Pastor?
Church Pastor: Yes, brother Francis.
Church member: We've heard this passage preached hundreds of times.
Church Pastor: Um, is that a problem?
Church member: Yes, don't you have anything new to say?
Church Pastor: The Lord gave me this message for you.
Church member: Does God think we are dumb sheep?
Church Pastor: Well... (clears throat)
Church member: Oh, right. Please continue.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

I'm a used book dealer....Bob Steel"

You misspelled "Steal". - LOL

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[MA2444]

I kept Him by my side all day long. I invited Him to go to work with me or on errands. This is my best friend, right?! So I made a grand effort to not forget that my friend who is closer than a Brother was with me, so I didnt forget and ignore Him. I stayed focused upon Him by talking to Him. I...prayed unceasingly. In a Customers house working, I'm whispering to Him under my breath. I put the bug in His ear and talked it off!

One day I invited Jesus to go to work with me He was sort've my helper because as faras the company was concerned, they sent Ed out as the tech! But He was really my Boss too, right? So I get my first job for the day and I have to go work in a Church. So now...

Jesus was the Customer.
Jesus was theowner of the Building.
Jesus was the owner of the company occupying the space.
Jesus was my helper/
Jesus was the Lead Tech.

Needless to say, the job went fine and we got them all fixed up! Now that's what you call, working for the Lord!

 

[Cassandra]

One day I invited Jesus to go to work with me He was sort've my helper because as faras the company was concerned, they sent Ed out as the tech! But He was really my Boss too, right? So I get my first job for the day and I have to go work in a Church. So now...

Jesus was the Customer.
Jesus was theowner of the Building.
Jesus was the owner of the company occupying the space.
Jesus was my helper/
Jesus was the Lead Tech.

Needless to say, the job went fine and we got them all fixed up! Now that's what you call, working for the Lord!

We should always ask the Lord to be with us. He gives breath and life. I don't think anyone here that doesn't ask Jesus to be with us. He went to work with me too, and I ask him to be with me during the days now (retired) That is not the same as not reading the Bible, and expecting things.
I wonder if maybe the "Jesus is always with me, I don't need to read my Bible" might be sort of an excuse not to spend time doing it. You have to take some time out of your day if you are going to read the Bible. If it is no longer necessary to do so, then one would have plenty of time for ones own activities. That doesn't mean that this is what you do
I'm just sayin'
@amigo de christo Got any thoughts? Is Jesus always with you too?

 

[St. SteVen]

Quote from post #619
"That is not the same as not reading the Bible, and expecting things.
I wonder if maybe the "Jesus is always with me, I don't need to read my Bible"
might be sort of an excuse not to spend time doing it."


There it is.
- Read the Bible (resource) if you want anything from God? (source)
- Read the Bible as an obligation? No excuse not to? = Lazy (condemnation)
- Bowing to a book instead of the author.

Source or Resource? - Understanding the difference

This came up on another topic. Seemed to be worth its own topic.
Understanding the difference between the SOURCE and a RESOURCE.
God should be our SOURCE. Everything else is a RESOURCE. (including the Bible)

Source:
- God

Resources:
- The Bible
- Commentaries
- Preachers/teachers
- Other believers
- Unbelievers (listen)

Other resource ideas?

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