Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author

[St. SteVen]

From my topic:
Is the Logos meaningful, or meaningless? - Depends on your view of Logos.


I want to discuss the Logos as what it means before the Logos became flesh. (and dwelt among us)
In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. (John 1:1)

This tells three things about the Logos.
1) The Logos was from the beginning.
2) The Logos was with God.
3) The Logos was God.

Our knee-jerk thought is to jump to the meaning that Christ was the Logos.
Which is true by extension. But what was the Logos BEFORE the Logos became flesh?

Strong's Greek 3056 3056. logos Strong's Concordance logos: a word (as embodying an idea)

I want to focus on this "as embodying an idea" definition.
The Logos as embodying an idea, the logic, the reason, the meaning.

So, returning to the topic title question: Is the Logos meaningful, or meaningless?
Especially as it relates to all of humankind.

Was God's plan (Logos) from the beginning to be meaningful, or meaningless?
Or, more to the point, would the plan be meaningful to all of humankind, or only to a select minority?

Was the plan inclusive, or exclusive? (to the majority)
Can we rate an exclusive plan as good, or evil?

Meaningful = has value
Meaningless = has no value

Is the Logos meaningful, or meaningless?


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[O'Darby]

What do you say is the difference between Logos and Scripture as the Word of God?

The "Word of God" is a characterization that Christians apply to Scripture. The Logos in John's thinking was a notion informed by Greek philosophy (primarily Philo) of Jesus as the personfication of a bridge between the Divine and the human realm. There is also the OT personification of God's Wisdom or Word as "Sophia "- which is one reason that Jews who became Christians were more accepting of the Trinitarinan notion of Jesus than might have been expected (because attributes of God had already been personfied in the OT). In any event, there is no question that when John says "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us," he is talking about Jesus, not Scripture. When Christians today refer to the Word of God, they are typically talking about the Bible, not Jesus.

 

[Wynona]

The "Word of God" is a characterization that Christians apply to Scripture. The Logos in John's thinking was a notion informed by Greek philosophy (primarily Philo) of Jesus as the personfication of a bridge between the Divine and the human realm. There is also the OT personification of God's Wisdom or Word as "Sophia "- which is one reason that Jews who became Christians were more accepting of the Trinitarinan notion of Jesus than might have been expected (because attributes of God had already been personfied in the OT). In any event, there is no question that when John says "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us," he is talking about Jesus, not Scripture. When Christians today refer to the Word of God, they are typically talking about the Bible, not Jesus.

Thank you for answering. I do understand that Christians don't commonly refer to Jesus as the Word of God. But I do believe Jesus is, among other things, the Living Word and that Scripture/The Bible is also the Living Word.

I believe the Scripture is the thing we digest so that we don't "live on bread alone". It is "eating Jesus' flesh and drinking His blood" so to speak. He is a man with a body of flesh but his divine nature can be described as the Living Word.

To know Jesus is to keep his commandments. We know His commandments because of the Bible. I don't see reverence for the Scripture as idolatry because Jesus wanted his followers to be transformed by it. Scripture says the implanted Word is able to save our souls.

 

[St. SteVen]

I don't see reverence for the Scripture as idolatry because Jesus wanted his followers to be transformed by it. Scripture says the implanted Word is able to save our souls.

I don't see reverence for the Scripture as idolatry either. BUT...
what I do see some believers elevating a relationship with the BOOK above a relationship with the author.
This is what I call Bibliolatry.

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[O'Darby]

Thank you for answering. I do understand that Christians don't commonly refer to Jesus as the Word of God. But I do believe Jesus is, among other things, the Living Word and that Scripture/The Bible is also the Living Word.

I believe the Scripture is the thing we digest so that we don't "live on bread alone". It is "eating Jesus' flesh and drinking His blood" so to speak. He is a man with a body of flesh but his divine nature can be described as the Living Word.

To know Jesus is to keep his commandments. We know His commandments because of the Bible. I don't see reverence for the Scripture as idolatry because Jesus wanted his followers to be transformed by it. Scripture says the implanted Word is able to save our souls.

I don't see reverance for Scripture as idolatry either - and that isn't what this thread is about. Bibliolatry is not mere reverance for Scripture. As the term suggests, it is worship of the Bible as an idol in its own right.

I understand that many Christians, including me, regard the Bible as the Living Word in the sense that the Holy Spirit speaks to us through it. However, I have reached the point where, when I read Genesis 4 or First Thessalonians 5 for the umpteenth time, the still small voice of the Spirit tends to say things like "How many times do you think you need to read this, bub?" (Just kidding, folks - no more lectures, please.)

In one post above, I mentioned the Christian classic The Cloud of Unknowing (available for free at the indispensible Christian Classics Ethereal Library, Work info: Cloud of Unknowing - Christian Classics Ethereal Library). Written for medieval monks, it describes a technique for communion with God. I have largely supplanted Bible reading with prayer and communion and have found it much more rewarding. I find that God has more to say in deep communion than in a 35th reading of Genesis 4.

As I said above, if someone sincerely believes she derives spiritual benefit from daily Bible reading and isn't just going throughb the motions because "that's what Christians are supposed to do," then go for it! I simply say that I have found communion as described in The Cloud of Unknowing more rewarding in this, my 54th year after being born again. This doesn't mean I have no reverance for Scripture.

 

[St. SteVen]

However, I have reached the point where, when I read Genesis 4 or First Thessalonians 5 for the umpteenth time, the still small voice of the Spirit tends to say things like "How many times do you think you need to read this, bub?" (Just kidding, folks - no more lectures, please.)

LOL
Yes, God also speaks to me the way I would speak to a friend.
Glad to hear that happens to others. - LOL
Once there was even some rough language in what I heard.
Pretty cool actually. Got the point across.

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[MA2444]

I don't see reverence for the Scripture as idolatry either. BUT...
what I do see some believers elevating a relationship with the BOOK above a relationship with the author.
This is what I call Bibliolatry.

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Reading the bible every day does not make it an idol.

 

[St. SteVen]

Reading the bible every day does not make it an idol.

I agree.
Unless it is a replacement for a relationship with the author.

How can that be prevented?

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[MA2444]

I don't see reverance for Scripture as idolatry either - and that isn't what this thread is about. Bibliolatry is not mere reverance for Scripture. As the term suggests, it is worship of the Bible as an idol in its own right.

Imagine we have been invaded by the enemy. You know they are coming your way. You are bugging out and have one free hand left to carry something. There's a bible and a firearm in front of you, which one do pick up and carry and which to leave behind?

There's two answers. One answer is you take the firearm and leave the bible because you have already read it enough that you have written it upon your heart and know Him.

The 2nd answer is, you are prolly panicking and dont know what to do because you hardly ever read the bible. He is the one that should pick the bible over the firearm.

And the moral to the riddle is thus, dont wait until the last minute to prepare yourself.

I *think* that reading God's word (the bible) is eating His flesh. And I *Think* that prayer is His blood that we drink. (the word became flesh).

 

[MA2444]

I agree.
Unless it is a replacement for a relationship with the author.

How can that be prevented?

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By reading it more and doing what it says??

One of the things it says is to, pray unceasingly. Hmm.

 

[St. SteVen]

By reading it more and doing what it says??

One of the things it says is to, pray unceasingly. Hmm.

How does that build a relationship with the author?

- Obeying a BOOK. ???
- Praying because a BOOK says you should. ???

Still sounds like a relationship with a BOOK instead of the author.
Does God speak to you when you are NOT reading the BOOK?

A relationship is two-way communication.

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[St. SteVen]

I *think* that reading God's word (the bible) is eating His flesh. And I *Think* that prayer is His blood that we drink. (the word became flesh).

That's different.
I've never heard anyone say it that way before.
When you wrote earlier about eating and drinking, I thought you meant in the Catholic sense of the Eucharist. (transubstantiation)

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[O'Darby]

How does that build a relationship with the author?

- Obeying a BOOK. ???
- Praying because a BOOK says you should. ???

Still sounds like a relationship with a BOOK instead of the author.
Does God speak to you when you are NOT reading the BOOK?

A relationship is two-way communication.

/

To those for whom Bibliolatry is practically the definition of "being a real Christian," it's difficult to communicate what we're talking about. In all species of Bibliolatry, it's really THE BIBLE - the book - that has primacy. It's almost as though there is no Father, Son or Spirit APART FROM the Bible, which is why I described it as being like a Fourth Person of the Trinity. God speaks only through the Bible. Actual communion with the Living God such as is described in The Cloud of Unknowing is viewed suspiciously, as though it were somehow bogus and perhaps occult. No, "a real Christian" just reads Romans or Galatians, or Leviticus, Numbers or 1 Kings, over and over and over in the hope (I guess) that the Holy Spirit will say something new and different this time - almost as though there were some magic in the exercise of reading the same words again and again. Bible study certainly has to be part of any Christian's life, but it shouldn't be the sole or defining part or a substitute for direct communion with the Living God. Worse yet, in Bibliolatry the Bible typically rules every other aspect of life at the expense of logic, common sense, experience, and vast bodies of human knowledge.

I don't think I even said THIS very well. Bibliolatry is so prevalent in some segments of Christianity that it's near-impossible to communicate why this isn't what a mature Christian life should look like.

 

[Cassandra]

I simply say that I have found communion as described in The Cloud of Unknowing more rewarding in this, my 54th year after being born again.

What was life like before this book?

 

[MA2444]

How does that build a relationship with the author?

- Obeying a BOOK. ???
- Praying because a BOOK says you should. ???

Still sounds like a relationship with a BOOK instead of the author.
Does God speak to you when you are NOT reading the BOOK?

A relationship is two-way communication.

/

Those are good questions. And I have good answers!

You do not "obey the Book" per se. You obey what the book says. You are led by the Spirit of God. You obey God and He has written down many of His precepts and biblical principles that He wants us to fashion our life by. Still sound like a relationship with a book?!

God does speak to me when I am reading the Book.
God does speak to me when I am not reading the book.

There is nowhere that I can go to get away from His voice. If I go to the mountain, He is there. If I go to Sheol, Behold He is there...

The way I developed a relationship with the Lord was twofold. One was, I was in a season of dedicted reading in His (written) word, and it told me to pray unceasingly. So I did.

I kept Him by my side all day long. I invited Him to go to work with me or on errands. This is my best friend, right?! So I made a grand effort to not forget that my friend who is closer than a Brother was with me, so I didnt forget and ignore Him. I stayed focused upon Him by talking to Him. I...prayed unceasingly. In a Customers house working, I'm whispering to Him under my breath. I put the bug in His ear and talked it off!

We should remember that Prayer is not a monologue. Prayer is a dialogue. So when I would say something to Him just like I was talking to someone, my friend, I would pause and wait for Him to answer me. And I began to be able to Hear the still small voice of the Lord inside of me. I would ask something, then a thought would pop into my head, or a scripture pops into my head and whichever one, it was still relevant to what I had asked and it turned into a regular conversation. And I mean regular conversation where He routinely said things that...changed the subject on me! Or, He says thing that I initially do not like. He told me to do something that I did not want to do so I said no! (Yikes!) I said no at first but, you know how God is! He has a great sense of humor during this age of grace. I turned on the radio one time with Him in the truck and He told me to turn it off! I havent turned it back on since!

He told me to move from Colorado to Ohio and I said no. So He proceeded to teach me all about Jonah. Here I am in Ohio! Loving it, no complaints! He has blessed me since I obeyed him and moved here. I didnt even see that coming. So...yes, you are exactly right. Relationship is two way communication.

When I met the girl who would be my wife, I liked her very much and tried to develop a relationship with her. How did I do that? We sat down and talked. Then we talked tomorrow and the day after that. How did you develop your relationship with your spouse? Same way I bet! Speak to the Lord. Invite Him to go with you when you go out into the world for any reason.

I dont go out without an entourage. The Holy Spirit nis indwelling and never leaves, I invite the Lord...He is in the Father and the Father is in Him, so all 3 are with me. Besides the guardian Angels and scribe Angels too. That's an entourage! It's the greatest feeling in the world.

Good answer?

 

[MA2444]

How does that build a relationship with the author?

- Obeying a BOOK. ???
- Praying because a BOOK says you should. ???

Still sounds like a relationship with a BOOK instead of the author.
Does God speak to you when you are NOT reading the BOOK?

A relationship is two-way communication.

/

I suppose I am the guy who hears voices in his head, lol. (He probably Daft!!). The thing is over a period of time of having conversations with the Lord inside of me, I have noticed that, He talks differently than I do. He has different speech patterns than I do. So I am not hearing my own voice and playing games in my head, it...is...real. I dont even think like how how He talks. He always speaks in a very very pleasant and non confrontational way. He says things just the right way, always. (That proves it isnt me! Lol) plus He has changed the subject to something more important that I hadnt even thought of yet!

After you are tuned in to the voice of the Lord and have been hearing Him for awhile...it's like He turns up the volume so it gets even easier! He has woke me up at 3 AM to pray before!

I remember when I could not hear the still small voice of the Lord. I was like, God why don't you talk to me! Talk to me Lord! I was one of those guys who said his morning prayers on the way out the door to work. Blah blah blah, Amen! You have to remember that this is a dialogue. Give Him time to answer. Don't get distracted. You can't go blah blah blah Amen and then wonder why God doesnt talk to you. You must focus that this is a real conversation and pay attention to your Lord.

He told me that He talks to everyone all day long and they cant hear His voice. Many do and ignore it. When your conscience speaks to you that is essentially the Lod speaking to you (for those who can not hear His voice) and you should not go against your conscience ever because the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit directly. So our spirit (and conscience) always knows the right thing to do. When you go against your conscience you harden yur own heart and make it even more difficult to hear the voice of God.

Does the Lord speak to you?

 

[St. SteVen]

Actual communion with the Living God such as is described in The Cloud of Unknowing is viewed suspiciously, as though it were somehow bogus and perhaps occult.

Thanks for providing that link. I need to start reading that today.

No, "a real Christian" just reads Romans or Galatians, or Leviticus, Numbers or 1 Kings, over and over and over in the hope (I guess) that the Holy Spirit will say something new and different this time - almost as though there were some magic in the exercise of reading the same words again and again.

The definition of insanity?

Bible study certainly has to be part of any Christian's life, but it shouldn't be the sole or defining part or a substitute for direct communion with the Living God.

Agree.
And Christians tend to have such a binary view of this.
This topic appears to be anti-Bible to them. Which was not my intention at all.

Worse yet, in Bibliolatry the Bible typically rules every other aspect of life at the expense of logic, common sense, experience, and vast bodies of human knowledge.

Right. What's the fruit?
It also leads to tribalism. They aren't studying the Bible to grow closer to God.
They read it to arm themselves AGAINST other believers. The "us and them" mentality.

On another topic a poster said that part of my premise statement "Jesus is the answer" was unbiblical. - LOL

I don't think I even said THIS very well. Bibliolatry is so prevalent in some segments of Christianity that it's near-impossible to communicate why this isn't what a mature Christian life should look like.

I thought it was VERY well said.
Agree. The goal of discipleship in the church is to get people to read their Bible.
Which is fine and good, but we need to move on from there.
I think some mature Christians leave the church because there is no challenge to it.
It becomes a waste of time.

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[St. SteVen]

God does speak to me when I am reading the Book.
God does speak to me when I am not reading the book.

There you go.
You DO understand. Good!

Good answer?

MUCH better, thanks! :)

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[St. SteVen]

Does the Lord speak to you?

Yes.
And of those who CAN hear his voice, each own has their own experience with it.
My wife hears from God differently than I do. And our differences are complimentary.

I remember the statement in a preached message on the subject.
"If it's odd, it's God." That's often how it is for me.

I was talking to God recently and I heard him say very quietly,
"Help is on the way." That was outside my usual thought pattern.

What I hear is usually pretty short and direct. "Go talk to that person."
In reference to a total stranger I am looking at.
My question about what to say to them is met with silence. - LOL
When I obey, it becomes obvious. (more is given to me)

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[Lambano]

Actual communion with the Living God such as is described in The Cloud of Unknowing is viewed suspiciously, as though it were somehow bogus and perhaps occult.

No, Reformation theology has not been kind to our family "mystics", but I understand the reason why. There's no Quality Control checks on communion with the Living God. The Reformation was all about putting some badly-needed quality control checks on God's people.