Biblical Mary

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Mungo

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That's all fine an well for you.
So what does your Catholic Church understanding tell you is your understanding of the exact point in time Mary became "Sinless"?

Was the Conception Act of Mary's dad fertalizing Mary's mother's egg....the point in time...Mary Became Sinless, yes or no?

she was saved at the instance of her conception.

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin. (Catechism of the Catholic Church)
 

theefaith

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I think it's far more likely that the scene represents Jacob and his family, i.e.
the people of Israel. (Gen 37:9-11)
_

israel and Satan worked together to kill Christ
The child is Jesus and Mary is his mother
 

Webers_Home

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Now if Jesus was biologically related to Mary, and thru her biologically
related to Eve, who was biologically related to Adam, then wouldn't the
passage below apply to Jesus just as much as the rest of Adam's biological
posterity?

Rom 5:13 . . Just as sin entered the world through one man, and death
through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned

"all sinned" is grammatically past tense; indicating that the entirety of
Adam's biological posterity, from first to last, are implicated in eating the
forbidden fruit. That of course includes Eve because she was constructed
with material taken from Adam's body.

So; even though Jesus was innocent of any sins of his own, he was
implicated in at least one that wasn't his own.

Also; if Rom 5:13 applied to Jesus, then he would've eventually died of old
age had he not been executed.

Rom 5:18 . .The result of one trespass was condemnation for all
_
 

Illuminator

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Interesting, as that seems contradictory to me, why did she need a savior ,if she was born saved ?
It was because of the Savior she was born saved. It was the merits of the cross RETROSPECTIVELY, applied to Mary at her conception. That's why she rejoiced. David was forgiven of his sin RETROSPECTIVELY of the cross, because God can do that. The merits of the cross is not limited to time. God has the power to prevent Mary from original sin, or God is weak and impotent.
God created Adam and Eve, even Satan, who were at first sinless. So sinlessness is not at all foreign to Scripture. In fact, sinlessness is the norm that God intended for all of us. Sin was never the intended norm for humanity, so God made one exception in His plan for salvation. That's why Mary rejoiced in God her savior. God planned to restore what was lost, namely, sanctifying grace. He didn't plan The Fall, that would make God a sadistic monster.
Eve said "NO", Mary said "YES". That's why the Church Fathers identified Mary as the New Eve.
 
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Illuminator

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It was because of the Savior she was born saved. It was the merits of the cross RETROSPECTIVELY, applied to Mary at her conception. That's why she rejoiced. David was forgiven of his sin RETROSPECTIVELY of the cross, because God can do that. The merits of the cross is not limited to time. God has the power to prevent Mary from original sin, or God is weak and impotent.
God created Adam and Eve, even Satan, who were at first sinless. So sinlessness is not at all foreign to Scripture. In fact, sinlessness is the norm that God intended for all of us. Sin was never the intended norm for humanity, so God made one exception in His plan for salvation. That's why Mary rejoiced in God her savior. God planned to restore what was lost, namely, sanctifying grace. He didn't plan The Fall, that would make God a sadistic monster.
Eve said "NO", Mary said "YES". That's why the Church Fathers identified Mary as the New Eve.
This excerpt from St. Irenaeus shows that the Blessed Virgin Mary is truly a new Eve, just as her son Jesus Christ is a new Adam. He contrasts Eve’s disobedience with Mary’s obedience.

The Lord, coming into his own creation in visible form, was sustained by his own creation which he himself sustains in being. His obedience on the tree of the cross reversed the disobedience at the tree in Eden; the good news of the truth announced by an angel to Mary, a virgin subject to a husband, undid the evil lie that seduced Eve, a virgin espoused to a husband.
Christ gathered all things into one, by gathering them into himself. He declared war against our enemy, crushed him who at the beginning had taken us captive in Adam, and trampled on his head, in accordance with God’s words to the serpent in Genesis: I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall lie in wait for your head, and you shall lie in wait for his heel [Genesis 3:15].

The one lying in wait for the serpent’s head is the one who was born in the likeness of Adam from the woman, the Virgin. This is the seed spoken of by Paul in the letter to the Galatians: The law of works was in force until the seed should come to whom the- promise was made. [Gal. 3:19]

HIS SON, BORN OF A WOMAN
He shows this even more clearly in the same letter when he says: When the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman. The enemy would not have been defeated fairly if his vanquisher had not been born of a woman, because it was through a woman that he had gained mastery over man in the beginning, and set himself up as man’s adversary.

That is why the Lord proclaims himself the Son of Man, the one who renews in himself that first man from whom the race born of woman was formed; as by a man’s defeat our race fell into the bondage of death, so by a man’s victory we were to rise again to life.

Who was St. Irenaeus? What does he know?

St. Irenaeus was one of the most important Early Church Fathers of the 2nd century AD. His life reveals the cosmopolitan nature of the Roman Empire at the height of its power. St. Irenaeus was bishop of Lyons, in Southern France, though he appears to have grown up in Smyrna, in modern-day Turkey. There Irenaeus had personal contact with St. Polycarp, one of the Apostolic Fathers who in turn knew the Apostle John, son of Zebedee. Before becoming bishop, Saint Irenaeus apparently studied in Rome where he was influenced by St. Justin Martyr. His major work, Against Heresies, which appeared around the year 185 AD, exposed the absurdities of the Gnostic cults of the day and included a strong presentation and defense of Catholic Christianity. It is the earliest compendium of Christian theology surviving from ancient times and is the first work that cites virtually every book of the Christian writings that we now call the New Testament. Saint Irenaeus is said to have won the crown of martyrdom around the year 200 AD. He is honored in the Roman liturgy on June 28.

 
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theefaith

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Now if Jesus was biologically related to Mary, and thru her biologically
related to Eve, who was biologically related to Adam, then wouldn't the
passage below apply to Jesus just as much as the rest of Adam's biological
posterity?

Rom 5:13 . . Just as sin entered the world through one man, and death
through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned

"all sinned" is grammatically past tense; indicating that the entirety of
Adam's biological posterity, from first to last, are implicated in eating the
forbidden fruit. That of course includes Eve because she was constructed
with material taken from Adam's body.

So; even though Jesus was innocent of any sins of his own, he was
implicated in at least one that wasn't his own.

Also; if Rom 5:13 applied to Jesus, then he would've eventually died of old
age had he not been executed.

Rom 5:18 . .The result of one trespass was condemnation for all
_
Because of Mary immaculate conception
Created free from original sin
 

Taken

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she was saved at the instance of her conception.

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin. (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

Seems your own Church forgot to write and publish in their doctrine what: "they mean" by "her conception," so "you" can not answer my question.

A pretty signifiant oversight.
 

Mungo

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Seems your own Church forgot to write and publish in their doctrine what: "they mean" by "her conception," so "you" can not answer my question.

A pretty signifiant oversight.

In post #313 I was confusing your request to me with your comments to BOL as I was trying to follow both at the same time.
So post #313 does not apply to Mary's conception, which would be a normal human one. There is no need therefore for the Church to define conception. Her conception was when she was conceived in the normal human way.
 

Ronald Nolette

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I thought it would be some garbage like that.
Let's start the demolition:

1. Dagon was not a fish god.
According to the world renowned Encyclopaedia Brittanica, Dagan (Dagon) was the god of crop fertility, dagan being the Hebrew for “grain”.

Dagan, also spelled Dagon, West Semitic god of crop fertility, worshiped extensively throughout the ancient Middle East. Dagan was the Hebrew and Ugaritic common noun for “grain,” and the god Dagan was the legendary inventor of the plow. His cult is attested as early as about 2500 bc, and, according to texts found at Ras Shamra (ancient Ugarit), he was the father of the god Baal. Dagan had an important temple at Ras Shamra, and in Palestine, where he was particularly known as a god of the Philistines, he had several sanctuaries, including those at Beth-dagon in Asher (Joshua 19:27), Gaza (Judges 16:23), and Ashdod (1 Samuel 5:2–7).
Dagan | Semitic god

A possible etymology of the name Dagan from the West Semitic/Ugaritic root dgn, which can be translated as 'grain', and the Hebrew dāgōn, an archaic word for 'grain' (Black and Green 1998: 56), has tempted some scholars to assume that he played a role in vegetation/fertility, which might be confirmed by his son's, the West Semitic deity Ba'al, role as a vegetation deity (Black and Green 1998: 56). A 4th century AD tradition which places Dagan as a fish deity is erroneous (Black and Green 1998: 56).
Ancient Mesopotamian Gods and Goddesses - Dagan (god)


2. Ea (Greek Oannes) was the Mesopotamian fish god.
Again according to the world renowned Encyclopedia Brittanica, Ea (Greek Oannes) was the Mesopotamian fish god.

Oannes, in Mesopotamian mythology, an amphibious being who taught mankind wisdom. Oannes, as described by the Babylonian priest Berosus, had the form of a fish but with the head of a man under his fish’s head and under his fish’s tail the feet of a man. In the daytime he came up to the seashore of the Persian Gulf and instructed mankind in writing, the arts, and the sciences. Oannes was probably the emissary of Ea, god of the freshwater deep and of wisdom.
Oannes | Mesopotamian mythology


3. Not Babylon
The relief picture of the “fish god” most commonly shown is actually from the Assyrian city of Nineveh (not Babylon), and was discovered in the excavations of the 1840s by Austen Henry Layard. (see www.gutenberg.org/files/39897/39897-h/39897-h.htm)

4.
Similar does not mean equivalent.
It is the logical fallacy of Cum hoc ergo propter hoc (with this, therefore because of this). That there are similarities between two practices occurring at similar times does not mean that there is a causal link between them. This is even more ridiculous when the supposed common practices are at a distance in time and space.

5. Nineveh was destroyed, razed to the ground around 612 BC.
The mitre in its current form did not appear until the 12th century AD. It developed from a round headdress like the Jewish priestly turban & as worn today by Eastern Orthodox priests. There are therefore some 16 centuries between the destruction of Nineveh and the supposed appearance of the “fish mouth” shaped mitre.

6. No other similarity
No other similarity is presented between the supposed cult of Dagon and Catholic practices. The whole charge rests on this singular and highly fanciful similarity

For more information on Dagan see:
Ancient Mesopotamian Gods and Goddesses - Dagan (god)

The picture of "Dagan" in your links is the one produced in a report by the 19th century archaeologist Henry Layard who excavated Ninevah. It came from a bas-relief on a wall in the ruins. In his report he wrote:
“Unfortunately the upper part of all these figures had been destroyed, but as the lower remained from above the waist we can have no difficulty in restoring the whole, especially as the same image is seen entire on a fine Assyrian cylinder of agate in my possession.” (p284)
It was of course in black and white but some of the more inventive purveyors of this nonsense actually colour it in.

Dagon - Wikipedia
Dagon - Wikipedia

Dagon (Phoenician: , romanized: Dāgūn; Hebrew: דָּגוֹן‎, Dāgōn) or Dagan (Sumerian: , romanized: da-gan ) is an ancient Mesopotamian and ancient Canaanite deity. He appears to have been worshipped as a fertility god in Ebla, Assyria, Ugarit, and among the Amorites. The Hebrew Bible mentions him as the national god of the Philistines with temples at Ashdod and elsewhere in Gaza. A lon…

Ugaritic Dgn (Dagnu or Daganu), Akkadian Dagana.

According to Philo of Byblos, the Phoenician author Sanchuniathon explained Dagon as a word for "grain" (siton). Sanchuniathon further explains: "And Dagon, after he discovered grain and the plough, was called Zeus Arotrios." The word arotrios means "ploughman" or "pertaining to agricult

I t matters not what His name meant. He was half man/half fish in numerous depictions. HIs hat worn by his priests resembled a fish head!

You cited this:

"4. Similar does not mean equivalent.
It is the logical fallacy of Cum hoc ergo propter hoc (with this, therefore because of this). That there are similarities between two practices occurring at similar times does not mean that there is a causal link between them. This is even more ridiculous when the supposed common practices are at a distance in time and space."

and yet you commit this fallacy of logic because Dagon means grain so could not be fish. People colloquially call him the fish god because He was half fish and his priests wore a fish head miter!

We also knkow that the worship of Dagon was still popular until the 2nd century B.C. when Jonah Maccabvewes destroyed a temple to Dagon. This did not mean belief in Dagon or worship of him ended, just the last KNKOWN temple ceased. This in the soon transition from Grecian to Roman control of the promised land.
 

Ronald Nolette

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It doesn't matter if YOU asked about the Bishop's miter.
HISLOP made this stupid charge and you agreed with him.

Do you understand that supporting a liar like Hislop makes YOU just as guilty of his lies? If you don't know this - then you don't know the Gospel. Lies are evil - no matter WHO they are against. The Bible WARNS against tis type of sin . . .
Isaiah 5:20

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

Good luck with that . . .
As for your questions in RED - I already told you . . .
1. UNbiased historical references - not anti-Catholic morons.
2. What is "Romanism"?? I belong to the Catholic Church.
3. You bore false witness by declaring Hislop's lies as truth.

First I didn't write any questions in red.

Second I agree with Hislop and many many others that I cited who recognize the dagon miter as the Catholic miter.
Third We know anything written or filmed that criticizes Romanism will be considerd anti-Catholic morons, no matter how true.
Fourth: that is simply agreeing with a source that you only cited one person who disagrees. How is that bearing false witness against 1,000,000,000 people. I think you need to go and look up what bearing false witness actually means.

And the charge about teh miter goes all the way back to Eusebius, so He simply must be an anti catholic moron to you.

I think from now on I only wish to speak to unbiased historical people about me, and not anti-nolidad morons like you.
 

Ronald Nolette

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And what is "Romanism", Einstein?
If you're referring to the Catholic Church - then SAY, "Catholic Church" as if you were an intelligent person.

The fact that you keep using this idiotic term (Romanism) proves that you are nothing more than an anti-Catholic.

Once again let me correct your bearing false witness against me. I AM NOT ANTI-CATHOLIC, I AM ANTI CATHOLICISM. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE THAT YOU SHOULD KNOW IF YOU WERE AN INTELLIGENT PERSON. But I fear you are more interested in just ranting and vomiting out ad-hominems than engaging in real discussion.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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And I see you STILL haven't been able to list a SINGLE historical scholar who agrees with Alexander Hislop's shoddy "research".

Good job . . .

Why should I?

Until you produce the criteria that is used to determine who is and who isn't a "credible" historical scholar, you seem intent on saying anyone I would list is not credible if they even look askance at teh catholic church . I believe th erm you used to describe anyone who disagrees with Romanism as an "anti-catholic" moron.

And sorry, for using teh term "Romanism", but it ti found in every "credible" dictionary and is defined as roman Catholicism. WHOOPS!!!!!
 
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Ronald Nolette

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Exactly - but anti-0Catholics like @Ronald Nolette would rather marinate in lies and dishonesty than accept the truth.

Truth is offensive to people like him - which is frightening for him since Jesus IS Truth itself (John 14:6) . . .

Once again you trotting out yuour ad-hominems lies about me shows you probably are not old enough to actually post here!

I am not anti-catholic, but I am anti-catholicism. If that nuanced difference is too difficult for you to understand. Just let me know and this uneducated rube will happily explain the difference to one with such a superior intellect as you and Khan!
 
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Taken

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In post #313 I was confusing your request to me with your comments to BOL as I was trying to follow both at the same time.
So post #313 does not apply to Mary's conception, which would be a normal human one. There is no need therefore for the Church to define conception. Her conception was when she was conceived in the normal human way.

Okay...but what normal human way...
Still not addressed.
The conception of Mary, of her dads seed fertilizing wifes egg?
 

Mungo

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Dagon - Wikipedia
Dagon - Wikipedia

Dagon (Phoenician: , romanized: Dāgūn; Hebrew: דָּגוֹן‎, Dāgōn) or Dagan (Sumerian: , romanized: da-gan ) is an ancient Mesopotamian and ancient Canaanite deity. He appears to have been worshipped as a fertility god in Ebla, Assyria, Ugarit, and among the Amorites. The Hebrew Bible mentions him as the national god of the Philistines with temples at Ashdod and elsewhere in Gaza. A lon…

Ugaritic Dgn (Dagnu or Daganu), Akkadian Dagana.

According to Philo of Byblos, the Phoenician author Sanchuniathon explained Dagon as a word for "grain" (siton). Sanchuniathon further explains: "And Dagon, after he discovered grain and the plough, was called Zeus Arotrios." The word arotrios means "ploughman" or "pertaining to agricult

I t matters not what His name meant. He was half man/half fish in numerous depictions. HIs hat worn by his priests resembled a fish head!
Of course it matters. Dagan (or Dagon) was not half man and half fish. That was Oannes the Mesopotamian fish God. All your links cited Dagan. All your links were wrong.

You cited this:
"4. Similar does not mean equivalent.
It is the logical fallacy of Cum hoc ergo propter hoc (with this, therefore because of this). That there are similarities between two practices occurring at similar times does not mean that there is a causal link between them. This is even more ridiculous when the supposed common practices are at a distance in time and space."

and yet you commit this fallacy of logic because Dagon means grain so could not be fish. People colloquially call him the fish god because He was half fish and his priests wore a fish head miter!

We also knkow that the worship of Dagon was still popular until the 2nd century B.C. when Jonah Maccabvewes destroyed a temple to Dagon. This did not mean belief in Dagon or worship of him ended, just the last KNKOWN temple ceased. This in the soon transition from Grecian to Roman control of the promised land.

He could not be fish because he was the grain god, an agricultural god, not an aquatic one.
Read this again
Oannes, in Mesopotamian mythology, an amphibious being who taught mankind wisdom. Oannes, as described by the Babylonian priest Berosus, had the form of a fish but with the head of a man under his fish’s head and under his fish’s tail the feet of a man. In the daytime he came up to the seashore of the Persian Gulf and instructed mankind in writing, the arts, and the sciences. Oannes was probably the emissary of Ea, god of the freshwater deep and of wisdom.
Oannes | Mesopotamian mythology

Oannes was the fish god not Dagan.
Oannes was the half man half fish not Dagan.
You have no evidence to link Dagan, or Oannes, to Catholicism. Zero!
 

Ronald Nolette

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where in the Bible does it say that?
Where does Satan accuse Christ of having a sinner for a mother?

Matt. 1:
24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

that word "knew" means having sex with her!!!! there is no other meaning in both the Jewish culture and the wrioters of the KJV! no mattger what you and your cardinals scream!

Where does anyone say thatt Mary was conceinved and never committed sin all her life?

I do see in SCripture that Gods says this of all human beings:

:There is none righteous, no not one"!!!! There is no parentheses that says except for Mary.
 
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Taken

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Isn't that the normal way?

Really ODD, and deflective. Back and forth, me asking you to clarify specifically...WHAT you said...and still
You come back ASKING me a question...
I already KNOW my belief and why I believe what I DO...
It is most reasonable to me, for "you to clarify your own thoughts and claims" ....
 

Ronald Nolette

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Of course it matters. Dagan (or Dagon) was not half man and half fish. That was Oannes the Mesopotamian fish God. All your links cited Dagan. All your links were wrong.



He could not be fish because he was the grain god, an agricultural god, not an aquatic one.
Read this again
Oannes, in Mesopotamian mythology, an amphibious being who taught mankind wisdom. Oannes, as described by the Babylonian priest Berosus, had the form of a fish but with the head of a man under his fish’s head and under his fish’s tail the feet of a man. In the daytime he came up to the seashore of the Persian Gulf and instructed mankind in writing, the arts, and the sciences. Oannes was probably the emissary of Ea, god of the freshwater deep and of wisdom.
Oannes | Mesopotamian mythology

Oannes was the fish god not Dagan.
Oannes was the half man half fish not Dagan.
You have no evidence to link Dagan, or Oannes, to Catholicism. Zero!

Well I can't fix stupid as a radio counselor used to say. Dagon was represented as half man/half fish. His name means grain but that di dnot make Him the grain god as all those links I gave you showed. He is not a fish god either. He was the God of many nations, including parts of Roman territory. You can't see the forest for the trees.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Exactly - but anti-0Catholics like @Ronald Nolette would rather marinate in lies and dishonesty than accept the truth.

Truth is offensive to people like him - which is frightening for him since Jesus IS Truth itself (John 14:6) . . .


Still waiting for you to give evidence of how I bore false witness to 1,000,000,000 people. Believing what Hislop said about Nimrod and Semiramis is not bearing false witness to 1,000,000,000 no matter how badly you twist teh definition of false witness.

Also how have I lied about Roman Catholics? You haven't produce one lie but plenty of ad-hominems which just show you to be a shallow man.

Still waiting!! Or will you coward your way out and simply hurl accusations and then flee under a rock?
 

Enoch111

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only Mary is the biological mother of Jesus Christ
TRUE
The mother of our salvation
IMPOSSIBLE
Mother of God
TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE

Nowhere in the Bible is Mary called "the mother of our salvation" or "the mother of God". She is called "the mother of Jesus" and she had many children with Joseph after Jesus, her firstborn son.

It is highly significant that after Christ began His earthly ministry He never called Mary "Mother". Always "Woman".