Biblical Mary

[Taken]

The scriptures are no where near that specific.

I do not take responsibility for what you have or have not learned from Scripture.

You are seriously parsing words forms, conceived and conception?!

In order to believe the truth one must first know what the truth is.
Conception, the actual act of fertilization does NOT occur IN the Womb.
Pregnancy occurs in the Womb, CALLED conceived.
Mary was foretold she would be Conceived (pregnant in HER Womb.)
I am not the one preaching any conception Occured. Neither does Scripture.

The idea that there is anything wrong with a married woman having sex is absurd and such prudeness turns off unbelievers, who end up mocking such absurdity.

I said no such thing, so your remark is irrelevant.

If there was no fertilization of Mary’s egg she was only a surrogate mother. The Bible is clear that Mary was Jesus’ mother - no surrogate qualifier.

Mary "Was" lawfully Jesus' mother as God EXPRESSLY intended. A diligent student of Scripture and the Law, should KNOW WHY.

This made up doctrine about Mary is bizarre and dishonorable.

I absolutely agree with that statement, with it being directed toward men who preach God fertilized Marys Egg, to procreate a half human half spirit thing.

Honestly, I find it repugnant and far below the dignity of Christ or what his followers ought to strive for.

Honestly, I find dishonesty about God repugnant.
Perhaps you may recall spirit sons of God having children with daughters of men...and Gods reaction...

 

[Illuminator]

For all my newfound piety, I was still fifteen years old, and all too conscious of “cool.” Just months before, I’d left behind several years of juvenile delinquency and accepted Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior. My parents, who were not particularly devout Presbyterians, noticed the change in me and heartily approved. If it took religion to keep me out of juvenile detention, so be it.

Zeal for my new faith consumed me, most of the time. But one spring day, I was aware of something else consuming me. I had a stomach bug, with all the unpleasant symptoms. I explained my predicament to my homeroom teacher, who sent me to the school nurse. The nurse, after taking my temperature, told me to lie down while she phoned my mother.

From the conversation I overheard, I could tell I’d be going home. I felt instant relief and dozed off.

I awoke to a sound that cut me like a razor. It was my mother’s voice, and it was saturated with maternal pity.

“Ah,” she said when she saw me lying there.

Then suddenly it dawned on me. My mother is taking me home. What if my friends see her leading me out of the school? What if she tries to put her arm around me? I’ll be a laughingstock . . .

Humiliation was on its way. I could already hear the guys jeering at me. Did you see his mother wiping his forehead?

If I had been Catholic, I might have recognized the next fifteen minutes as purgatorial. But to my evangelical imagination, they were sheer hell. Though I stared at the ceiling above the nurse’s couch, all I could see was a long and unbearable future as “Mama’s boy.”

I sat up to face a woman approaching me with the utmost pity. Indeed, it was her pity that I found most repugnant. Implicit in every mother’s compassion is her “little” child’s need—and such littleness and neediness are most definitely not cool.

“Mom,” I whispered before she could get a word out. “Do you suppose you could walk out ahead of me? I don’t want my friends to see you taking me home.”

My mother didn’t say a word. She turned and walked out of the nurse’s office, out of the school, and straight to her car. From there, she mothered me home, asking how I felt, making sure I went to bed with the usual remedies.

It had been a close call, but I was pretty sure I’d escaped with my cool intact. I drifted off to sleep in almost perfect peace.

It wasn’t till that night that I thought about my “cool” again. My father visited my room to see how I was feeling. Fine, I told him. Then he looked gravely at me.

“Scottie,” he said, “your religion doesn’t mean much if it’s all talk. You have to think about the way you treat other people.” Then came the clincher: “Don’t ever be ashamed to be seen with your mother.”

I didn’t need an explanation. I could see that Dad was right, and I was ashamed of myself for being ashamed of my mother.
continued...

 

[Illuminator]

Spiritual Adolescents

Yet isn’t that the way it is with many Christians? As He hung dying on the cross, in His last will and testament, Jesus left us a mother. “When Jesus saw His mother and the disciple whom He loved standing near, He said to His mother, ‘Woman, behold, your son!’ Then He said to the disciple, ‘Behold, your mother!’ And from that hour the disciple took her into his home” (Jn 19:26-27).

We are His beloved disciples, His younger siblings (see Heb 2:12). His heavenly home is ours, His Father is ours, and His mother is ours .Yet how many Christians are taking her to their homes?

Moreover, how many Christian churches are fulfilling the New Testament prophecy that “all generations” will call Mary “blessed” (Lk 1:48)? Most Protestant ministers—and here I speak from my own past experience—avoid even mentioning the mother of Jesus, for fear they’ll be accused of crypto-Catholicism. Sometimes the most zealous members of their congregations have been influenced by shrill anti-Catholic polemics.

To them, Marian devotion is idolatry that puts Mary between God and man or exalts Mary at Jesus’ expense. Thus, you’ll sometimes find Protestant churches named after Saint Paul, Saint Peter, Saint James, or Saint John—but rarely one named for Saint Mary. You’ll frequently find pastors preaching on Abraham or David, Jesus’ distant ancestors, but almost never hear a sermon on Mary, His mother. Far from calling her blessed, most generations of Protestants live their lives without calling her at all.

This is not just a Protestant problem. Too many Catholics and Orthodox Christians have abandoned their rich heritage of Marian devotions. They’ve been cowed by the polemics of fundamentalists, shamed by the snickering of dissenting theologians, or made sheepish by well-meaning but misguided ecumenical sensitivities. They’re happy to have a mom who prays for them, prepares their meals, and keeps their home; they just wish she’d stay safely out of sight when others are around who just wouldn’t understand.

Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary

I too have been guilty of this filial neglect—not only with my earthly mother, but also with my mother in Jesus Christ, the Blessed Virgin Mary. The path of my conversion led me from juvenile delinquency to Presbyterian ministry. All along the way, I had my anti-Marian moments.

My earliest encounter with Marian devotion came when my Grandma Hahn died. She’d been the only Catholic on either side of my family, a quiet, humble, and holy soul. Since I was the only religious one in the family, my father gave me her religious articles when she died. I looked at them with horror. I held her rosary in my hands and ripped it apart, saying, “God, set her free from the chains of Catholicism that have bound her.” I meant it, too. I saw the rosary and the Virgin Mary as obstacles that came between Grandma and Jesus Christ.

Even as I slowly approached the Catholic faith—drawn inexorably by the truth of one doctrine after another—I could not make myself accept the Church’s Marian teaching.

The proof of her maternity would come, for me, only when I made the decision to let myself be her son. Despite all the powerful scruples of my Protestant training—remember, just a few years before, I had torn apart my Grandma’s beads—I took up the rosary one day and began to pray. I prayed for a very personal, seemingly impossible intention. On the next day, I took up the beads again, and the next day and the next. Months passed before I realized that my intention, the seemingly impossible situation, had been reversed since the day I first prayed the rosary. My petition had been granted.
continued...

 

[Illuminator]

From Here to Maternity

From that moment, I knew my mother. From that moment, I believe, I truly knew my home in the covenant family of God: Yes, Christ was my brother. Yes, He’d taught me to pray, “Our Father.” Now, in my heart, I accepted His command to behold my mother.

…I wish to share that insight—and its unshakable scriptural foundations—with as many Christians as will listen to me, prayerfully, with an open mind. I wish especially to address fellow Roman Catholics, because many of us need to rediscover our mother, discover her for the first time, or perhaps see her with new eyes. For even those who remain faithful to the Mother of God can sometimes do so in a needlessly defensive way—defiantly standing by their mother even though they can make little scriptural sense of their devotions. They cling to a handful of passages from the New Testament as a sort of last Marian resort. These good Catholics—though they do revere their mother—don’t fully understand her significance in the divine plan.

For Mary fills the pages of Scripture from the beginning of the first book through the end of the last. She was there, in God’s plan, from the beginning of time, just as the apostles were, and the Church, and the Savior, and she will be there at the moment everything is fulfilled. Still, her motherhood is a discovery waiting to be made. While still a Protestant, when I was an aspiring Scripture scholar, I once set myself to researching motherhood and fatherhood in the Bible. I found hundreds of pages of excellent scholarship on fatherhood, patriarchy, paternity, and so on—but only a few paragraphs on motherhood, matriarchy, and maternity.

What’s wrong with this picture? Perhaps motherhood is so little understood and appreciated because our mothers are so close to us. Infants, for example, don’t even understand that Mother is a separate entity until they are several months old. Some researchers say that children don’t fully come to this realization until they are weaned. I’m not sure that we can ever distance ourselves psychically from our mothers—though as teenagers we make them walk several paces ahead of us.

Step Up

Let us make this discovery together, then. Let’s walk with God’s people through the moments of creation and fall and the promise of redemption, from the giving of the Law to the establishment of a kingdom. At every turn we’ll find the promise of a homeland, complete with a dazzling queen who is also a mother to her people. At every turn we’ll also find the promise of a home, complete with a mother who is also a powerful intercessor for her children. At the most important stage, we will find a queen mother, who alone can complete Christ’s kingdom and His home.

Even if you feel you must start this journey a few paces behind—at a distance from history’s Most Blessed Mother—I beg you to keep walking with me, and with Mary, toward our common destination, our common home in the heavenly Jerusalem.

Dr. Scott Hahn is a former Protestant minister and now an internationally recognized Catholic theologian and apologist. He is Professor of Theology at Franciscan University of Steubenville and author of several books. This article was excerpted from Hail, Holy Queen, Doubleday, 2001.​

 

[Mungo]

A possible etymology. Okay so all this is a maybe based on your "credible" historical scholars?

Read what it says not what you would like it to say.
A possible etymology of the name Dagan from the West Semitic/Ugaritic root dgn, which can be translated as 'grain', and the Hebrew dāgōn, an archaic word for 'grain'.

The Hebrew dagon (or dagan) is not possibly the word for grain but IS the word for grain.

Strong's Hebrew: 1715. דָּגָן (dagan) -- corn, grain (of cereals)

... Bible Strong's Hebrew 1715 1715. dagan Strong's Concordance dagan: corn, grain (of cereals) Original Word: דָּגָן Part of Speech: Noun Masculine Transliteration: dagan Phonetic Spelling: (daw-gawn') Definition: corn, grain ...
Strong's Hebrew: 1715. דָּגָן (dagan) -- corn, grain (of cereals)

The possibly is whether it came from the West Semitic/Ugaritic root dgn.

man-half /fish are enough for me. I don't know if anyone worshipped this false god as a fish god, but they did worship this merman as a god.

But dagan is not half man half fish. Onannes is the half man half fish
Oannes, in Mesopotamian mythology, an amphibious being who taught mankind wisdom. Oannes, as described by the Babylonian priest Berosus, had the form of a fish but with the head of a man under his fish’s head and under his fish’s tail the feet of a man. In the daytime he came up to the seashore of the Persian Gulf and instructed mankind in writing, the arts, and the sciences. Oannes was probably the emissary of Ea, god of the freshwater deep and of wisdom.
Oannes | Mesopotamian mythology
As you said:
Well I can't fix stupid as a radio counselor used to say.

 

[Wrangler]

There was no sex, no fertilization of Marys egg, no mysterious secret conception.

If there was no fertilization of Mary’s egg, the prophecy is untrue that David’s kingdom will continue with no end.

 

[Wrangler]

Conception, the actual act of fertilization does NOT occur IN the Womb.
Pregnancy occurs in the Womb, CALLED conceived.
Mary was foretold she would be Conceived (pregnant in HER Womb.)

Parsing synonyms must be taxing on your mind.

Emoting is the verb form of emotion. Conception is the noun form of conceiving. The act is conceiving. The resulting state or condition is conception.

I don't know what difference you are trying to make here but it is fun to watch! ;)

 

[Mungo]

@Taken @Wrangler

If conception was by parthenogenesis then it could take place in the womb and there would be no fertilisation by male "seed".

I think God is capable of making that happen.

 

[Wrangler]

If ... anything.

What God is capable of is different from what he did or chooses to do.

Sadly, this thread has delved unnecessarily into the mechanics of his miracle.

Mary was devout and favored by God. She raised our Lord as other parents raise their children, be it biological, step, adopted, foster or what have you.

We should not idolize her - or anyone.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Uh huh.
Ofcourse, Because Protestants Know, Becoming a "saint", is according to Gods Way,
(not according to Catholic men deciding what men are "officially" "saints")

LOL - Heavenly intercession IS the Lord Gods OFFERINGS and WORKS:
His Word, His Blessings, His Gifts, His Body, His Blood, His Forgiveness, His Salvation, His Quickening....

Protestant saints ON Earth send their PRAYERS "TO" the Lord God IN Heaven, Full well KNOWING Gods Truth; THAT:

John 9:
[31] Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

We Protestants also KNOW,:
Saints on earth pray "FOR"... People on earth, that they might be healed. (You know, maybe not...Protestants know...Healed; is Saved and Quickened).

James 5:
[16] Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed.


The Prayers OF the saints, are presented to the Lord God...BY ... Angels!

Tob 12:
[15] I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels, which present the prayers of the saints, and which go in and out before the glory of the Holy One.

Rev.8
[4] And the smoke of the incense, which came with theprayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

YOU say, In MY BIZARRE WORLD, People do not go to Heaven....??
Seems you disagree with the Lord also.

John 3:
[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Protestants know, mans body's do not come down from heaven, nor go up to heaven.
Saved souls, Quickened spirits go to Heaven in a place which is prepared to receive and keep them....UNTIL the Earth is Renewed.
A saved mans eternity IS ON A RENEWED EARTH, WITH HIM also on Earth!

John 14:
[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you,
(Saved soul, Quickened spirit)
I will come again,
(To where they last saw Him...in the clouds
(Acts 1:
[9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and {B] a cloud received him [/B] out of their sight.)

John 14:3 Continued;
and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
(In the clouds, and returning from the clouds "WITH HIM"...to the earth).

Nothing I have said is NOT verified in Scripture.
However you do repeatedly show your own ignorance of NOT spiritually understanding Scripture.

You pay attention..
WHAT (ie the prayers OF the Saints) was NEVER disputed.

NO ONE called the Unconverted "saints"..

You pay attention...
What YOU PREACH is disputed.

You preach PRAYING "TO" Saints...
Yet NOTHING you presented, speaks of anyone PRAYING TO SAINTS.

What's going on is YOU PRAY TO saints...
You use Heavenly Saints as YOUR intercessory.

I, AS a saint, PRAY to the Lord God, that men who are NOT saints, might be healed, with the Lords intercession, and become a saint themselves.
As Always, Scripturally taught the intercessory FOR the Unsaved... IS: JESUS.
Gods High Priest.
(Not the Law, Not men, Not Angels, Not Saints, Not men appointed Priests)...

Heb 7:
[25] Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Good grief - not ONLY do you twist the Scriptures to your own destruction (2 Pet. 3:16) - you don't know the meaning of "concise".
You go on these extremely verbose psychotic rants because of all of the Scriptural acrobatics you need to perform.

Your perversion of John 3:13 DOESN'T mean that there's nobody in Heaven with Jesus. This verse is talking about the situation in Heaven - AT THAT POINT. This was BEFORE the Resurrection, Einstein.

Your insistence that the Elders in Heaven AREN'T taking our prayers to God is SQUASHED by Rev. 5:8, which shows them doing just that.
Rev. 8:4-5 shows the Angels doing the SAME thing.

Finally - you completely DODGED the fact that I exposed your LIE that Rev. 5:8 is about the prayers of the "unconverted" - which is false.
I had to explain to you that unconverted people are NOT considered "saints" in Scripture.

Finally - I am going to SAVE your response for future debates on intercession because you have repeatedly told me in the past that prayerful intercession is UNNECESSARY since we gan go "directly" to Jesus. NOW, you're changing your tune.

Interesting . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

It's sad you not only do not understand Scripture, neither do you understand the difference between "conception" and "conceived". You were once give the detailed difference....but per usual to deflect from your own ignorance you retort with name calling and snarky comments.

Marys Virgin Womb received Exactly what came forth out from God, in the manner God established, and Sent TO Her Virgin Womb, By the Power of God.

There was no sex, no fertilization of Marys egg, no mysterious secret conception.

The Scriptures are clear...
God in Heaven, Sent forth out of HIS MOUTH, His Holy Word.
His Holy Word was SENT to a particular womans undefiled Virgin Woman.
(The particular woman was a most highly favorable choice... Jewish, Faithful, Virgin, naturally born in Judah, Betrothed to a man of the House of David).

That HOLY THING, (Gods Word), Was Sent to Mary's Virgin Womb....
In a BODY God prepared, of Flesh and Blood,
IN the "LIKENESS", AS and earthly man.

That HOLY THING, revealed in the Likeness As a man, Himself SAID, He came forth out from God.

This has all been shown you before with every correlating Scripture....and per usual fallen on your deaf ears.

You preaching Mary was sinnless, and God fertalized her egg to create a half human half spirit thing....is utter nonsense and not remotely what the Word of God teaches.

THANK YOU for that idiotic opening statement.
It reminds me of Bill Clinton's infamous line, "It depends on what 'is' is . . ." when he was trying to weasel out of being caught red-handed regarding his sexual dalliances.

"Conception" and "conceived" are simply two different tenses of the SAME word. Your moronic assertion that God "implanted" Jesus's body in Mary's womb is not only stupid - it's un-Scriptural. NOWHERE does Scripture make this claim.

You cannot escape the Biblical reality that Mary CONCEIVED in HER womb (Luke 1:31) and that Jesus is HER seed (Gen. 3:15).
NONE of your long, psychotic rants can change this fact . . .

 

[Webers_Home]

.
The Catholic dictionary defines the so-called fallen nature as a nature that
lacks the right balance it had originally. It is a wounded but not perverted
nature. Since the fall, man has a built-in bias away from what is morally
good and toward what is wrong. He is weakened in his ability to know the
truth and to want the truly good.

The fallen nature is widely-believed inherited from one's biological father;
and is one of the widely-believed reasons that Jesus was virgin conceived.

My question is: Whence did Eve acquire the fallen nature?

Eve was the first to taste the forbidden fruit; and when she did, nothing
happened. Eve went right on just as naked as before without the slightest
concern about propriety. It wasn't till Adam tasted the fruit that the concept
of indecency entered her mind and she constructed an apron of fig leaves to
cover her pelvic area.

The thing is; seeing as how Eve was already in existence before Adam tasted
the fruit, then it was too late for the material taken from his body to pass
something on to her.

So: whence did Eve get the fallen nature if not from Adam and not from the
fruit?

Rev 12:9 identifies the Serpent of Gen 3:1 as the Devil.

He has the power of death (Heb 2:14) and the ability to tamper with the
human body and the human mind in ways not easily detected. (Luke 13:16,
Mark 5:1-5, and Eph 2:2). And the Devil has been a deciever and a
murderer from the very beginning. (John 8:44)

FAQ: When does the Devil go to work on people. . . in the womb or out of
the womb?

A: Adam and his wife demonstrate that the Devil's work can be done on
adults, but I'm guessing that for most of us it's in the womb. (Ps 51:5 &
58:3)

NOTE: I really have to hand it to the Devil; he's very good at shifting blame
away from himself. For quite a few years now it's been traditional to believe
biological fathers propagate the fallen nature; when it's been the Devil all
along.

How he has managed to hoodwink so many people for so long a time I don't
know, but what's really ironic about it is that there are people behind pulpits,
and chairing whole Sunday school departments, helping him do it as
unsuspecting accomplices; which goes to show that if a lie is repeated
often enough, widely enough, and loudly enough by people held in high
regard; pretty soon it's accepted by the masses as true without thought or
question.

A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong;
Gives it a superficial appearance of being right.
Thomas Paine
_

 

[Taken]

If there was no fertilization of Mary’s egg,

If God, A Spirit, fertilized a human womans egg, Shouldn't God be chained in hell with other spirits who fertilized a human woman egg ?

the prophecy is untrue that David’s kingdom will continue with no end.

What are you talking about "David's kingdom" with no end? Scripture?

 

[Taken]

Parsing synonyms must be taxing on your mind.

Emoting is the verb form of emotion. Conception is the noun form of conceiving. The act is conceiving. The resulting state or condition is conception.

I don't know what difference you are trying to make here but it is fun to watch! ;)

Glad you are having fun watching...but you should be listening and verifying.

A females egg is not in her womb.
A mans sperm seeks the egg, finds the egg, fertilizes the egg. That is the act of Conception.
How come you do no know where a womans egg is and where the womans egg is when it IS fertilized?

Try the library. Perhaps a book on Human Reproduction ie ( Anatomy and Physiology.)

Then try Scripture. Find where ANYTHING what so ever speaks of God fertilizing the egg/see of his own created woman kind of thing. Then by all means share that Scripture.

 

[Taken]

@Taken @Wrangler

If conception was by parthenogenesis then it could take place in the womb and there would be no fertilisation by male "seed".

I think God is capable of making that happen.

I rather believe God did exactaly as He said He would. And that never included (a mans corrupt teaching) of God fertilizing a human womans egg.

 

[Mungo]

I rather believe God did exactaly as He said He would.

God said "you will conceive in your womb".
From the Concise Oxford English Dictionary
conception noun -the action of conceiving a child or of one being conceived
conceive verb - become pregnant with (a child).
Pregnant adj - (of a woman or female animal) having a child or young developing in the uterus.

Yes, God did what he said he would. But that doesn't necessarily involve a male "seed"
parthenogenosis - noun Biology reproduction from an ovum without fertilization, especially in some invertebrates and lower plants.
According to Wikipedia it can happen naturally in some species except mammals.
Has been induced in some mammals (mice and rabbits for example).
Has happened in humans but rarely and usually with genetic defects.
There is also gynogenesis.
So there are other possibilities besides the one you give.

 

[Mungo]

And that never included (a mans corrupt teaching) of God fertilizing a human womans egg.

Who is saying that God fertilized the woman's egg?

God said "you will conceive in your womb".
From the Concise Oxford English Dictionary
conception noun -the action of conceiving a child or of one being conceived
conceive verb - become pregnant with (a child).
Pregnant adj - (of a woman or female animal) having a child or young developing in the uterus.

parthenogenosis - noun Biology reproduction from an ovum without fertilization.

All I'm saying is that appear stuck on a single track and ignoring other possibilities.

But as Wrangler said "Sadly, this thread has delved unnecessarily into the mechanics of his miracle."

 

[Mungo]

.
My question is: Whence did Eve acquire the fallen nature?

Eve was the first to taste the forbidden fruit; and when she did, nothing
happened. Eve went right on just as naked as before without the slightest
concern about propriety. It wasn't till Adam tasted the fruit that the concept
of indecency entered her mind and she constructed an apron of fig leaves to
cover her pelvic area.

You made that up. Scripture doesn't say that.
Or perhaps it might be fairer to say you are over-interpreting scripture.

.
My question is: Whence did Eve acquire the fallen nature?

Answer - from the same person that Adam did.

 

[Taken]

Your perversion of John 3:13 DOESN'T mean that there's nobody in Heaven with Jesus.

I said people Do not go to heaven...
LOL...that does not pervert John 3:13
LOL...John 3:13 does not say PEOPLE DO GO TO HEAVEN...

John 3:13 DOESN'T mean that there's nobody in Heaven with Jesus.

LOL... no BODY's (of PEOPLE, who ARE earthly humans) in heaven is precisely what John 3:13 means!

Any diligent student of Scripture KNOWS, BODY's of human men, are out of dust of the earth, and return to the dust of the earth...
They neither come down from heaven or go up to heaven....

Your insistence that the Elders in Heaven AREN'T taking our prayers to God

IS YOUR FALSE CLAIM.
I said no such thing.

Finally - you completely DODGED the fact that I exposed your LIE

The ONLY THING YOU EXPOSE...
IS YOU...
Your expertise in Making false claims for others;
(Including the spiritually living and the bodily dead)
Your pride in thinking your false claims have some negative effect on others.

IFY- your WAYS are utterly rejected.

Interesting . . .

I find nothing interesting in what you say or do. Moreso sad.

 

[Taken]

Who is saying that God fertilized the woman's egg?

BOL (the self-proclaimed Catholic expert)
post # 213