Babylon
- Thread starter Jerry Huerta
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It isn’t about secular kingdoms. But God will use kingdoms, people, timing, within His plan of salvation.
I apologize but I am having trouble understanding why the fact that His arrival took place during Rome or a certain Caesar was in a power.
It certainly was God's decision and choice where, when and how He would arrive to begin His ministry. But these verses are not speaking about or to a king of the secular world. God is speaking about His toes / horns / kings / Saints of the Most High - all referring to His 10 commandments as they progress from the toes (captivity within pagan Rome (without any consideration or mention of "a" secuar king), through their being preached throughout the Gentile world (horns) where they have the "power" to transform lives, then they become or are referred to as "kings" when they sit atop the divided 4th kingdom of papal Rome. There, they will be appropriated by the little horn (papacy) and they will be twisted, amended, altered, etc., by the little horn for his gain and control of all the people....
Verse 2:44 is indeed plural and the verses in the "Interpretation Sequence" of verses in chapter 2 (2:41-44) discuss the 4th kingdom of Rome - both before and after the Stone symbolically strikes the feet of the image. After, the Jews who accepted Jesus as their Messiah (pottery clay) will take these 10 toes (horns, kings, Saints of the Most High) and preach them to the world. God is walking us from chapter 2 to chapter's 7 and 8 (from the Jewish nation under the control of pagan Rome to these same "kings' sitting atop the divided 4th kingdom of papal Rome. He is linking these chapters together in this very specific manner - as He does with other prophecies within Daniel.
Daniel is all about the Messiah. There is no mention of a Caesar or Roman king ever mentioned in Daniel or Revelation. The closest we get is in when the Tempe and the city will be destroyed in 70 AD by Titus - and even he is not named.
Sorry, I do not have too much more to say about this.... Jesus will "set up" / "establish" His earlty kingdom at the cross and His 10 king's will go out to the Gentile world - this is when and how His kingdom will begin and grow. It is all about Him!
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You see the ten horns as referring to the 10 commandments being preached to the Gentile world? What text do you see which makes a direct connection between the ten toes/kings/horns and the 10 commandments? Are you Seventh Day Adventist? Your emphasis on the 10 Commandments gives me that impression.
Faux historicists pay no attention to anything.
More cultic semantic ignorance. Tiberius ruled in "the days of these kings"; specifically, in the days of the kings of the Roman empire.
So did the kings of the four empires, the last of which was the Roman empire, during which Christ set up the Kingdom of God during the reign of Tiberius.
You require "dispenish" delusion. Untenable Scripturally, historically, grammatically, and semantically.
Mark 1
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
If Christ did not issue that declaration in the time of the Roman Empire, then in the time of what empire did He issue that declaration?
Christ didn't set up His Kingdom during the fall of the Roman Empire. He set up His Kingdom during the reign of Tiberius.
I agree with the Reformers, not the Jesuit cult who served the little horn/beast and conjured preterism.
The Reformers took note all the transitions of the image represent the end of one kingdom and the beginning of another and the feet and toes are no exception. Furthermore, verse 41 affirms the feet and toes as the division of the fourth kingdom into a number of strong and weak “kings” ruling simultaneously. And history affirms the Reformers, not the Jesuit cult.
Moreover, the image is parallel with the beasts of chapter 7, in which Daniel renames the toes as horns upon the Roman beast where another beast arises, the little horn, that subdues three of the horns and is allowed by God to persecute the saints for a time, times, and half a time.
The beast, little horn, can’t be the Roman empire, or Nero because Rome persecuted the saints, the Church, for some two-hundred years, which doesn’t fit the time, times, and half a time.
There are numerous passages about the beast/little horn in Daniel and Revelation that the Reformers were able to reconcile to the papacy and I must agree with them, as opposed to the Jesuit cult.
Of course they did. Why did you omit this?
Romans 1
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Now tell us why you suddenly abandoned Zechariah 13:7.
Such ignorance of Zechariah 13:7 lies on your part, not mine. The context is a prophecy about the refinement of Israel, which is accomplished by scattering or sowing them in the earth, which you're trying to side-step. The ignorance of the OT by preterists transparent.
You didn’t ask for me to cite a Historicist that corroborates my view of Daniel 2:44, you asked for corroboration of my view on the phrase the kingdom of God. Matthew Henry, Albert Barnes, and John Gill are just a few that agree with my interpretation of Daniel 2:44. Such a switch is not unlike the Jesuit cult.What evidence is that?
Thanks for confirming that you're utterly incapable of identifying a single recognized Reformation historicist who corroborates your views on Daniel 2:44.
Not one.
You're a faux historicist.
So where does that leave you?
Just another cult on parade.
As for the “kingdom of God,” Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-38; Ezekiel 34:25-31; Hosea 2:14-23; Zechariah 10:7-9, 13:7 all vindicate my interpretation of the kingdom of God, and expose the preterist’s dogma as fuel fit for the fire (1 Corinthians 3:13).
No, what I did is expose your misrepresentation of Acts 2:29-36. The other passages I cite reveal you’re wrong about Acts.
Poor argument, implying I don’t read the scripture and go by them. Walvoord made a valid point, the prophecy about Babylon can’t be taken literally, when history is taken into account. It isn’t about modern day Iraq; it’s about an entity that fornicates with the kings of the earth and enriches the merchants of the earth by her luxurious living. Since the merchants of the earth rose to their modern-day prominence in the last two hundred years, we must look to the past two hundred years to identify mystery Babylon in agreement with the scriptures. Futurism fails on that account.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Weak response. How about you stop your nonsense and actually exegete Acts 2:29-36 for me?
Thanks for your response. I am not a SDA ... and I can assure you they nor others believe this or have even considered the 10 toes or 10 horns as the 10 commandments. I finished a 5 year study on Daniel and I had not read one commentator that considered the 10 horns as other than 10 kings, kingdoms, or nations that would come in the [still future]. But this theory would not work with, or fit within what I was finding during my study.
It wouls simply be impossible to attempt to put together all the pieces in Daniel that support this interpretation in this type of forum. As soon as I offer one interpretation surrounding this, you would most assuredly have at least another 10 questions right behind it.
However, it is worth the attempt to TRY and support it.... if you would like... I honestly don't know which came first - the chicken or the egg during those 5 years of study that brought everything together.... but perhaps we might start with chapter 2.
1) So, God established 4 and only 4 kingdoms that would come out of the sea in His plan of salvation given to us through Daniel. And it is only in the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome do we find there is a non- metal element within its composition. Of course that would be the clay that is found within the iron feet of this kingdom. So, before we move on, what or who are these supposed to represent? God does absolutely nothing unless He has a perfect reason for it... and this is a big one found immediately in the construction of one of His 4 kingdoms. So, who do you believe the clay represents and why?
2) Also, if you look in the "interpretation sequence" verses (detail verses that fit within the "dream sequence" verses (summary or big picture verses that identified the 4 kigdoms and the only 2 action events within them - 2:34 and 2:35, you will find God is focusing on the feet, the toes and the order of them in verses 2:41-44. What do they mean and what could this tell us about 4 kingdoms He established ad what caused all of this activity (2:41-44).
3) How did the clay and the iron separate in these verses? What caused this?
You can clearly see just how impossible it might seem to be able to answer your question without bringing up everything that is related to this....
So, if you really want to try and discuss this, it will take some time but it would be well worth it .... but if you want a quick answer, that won't be possible.
let me know your thoughts - either way, and, if you are interested, perhaps you might give me your thoughts on the above as a starter...
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
No, that's okay. I can't hardly follow what you're saying here right now, anyway. I was not saying I wanted to get into a big discussion about this right now. I was just curious how you came to conclude that the ten toes and horns represent the ten commandments and was wondering if you were SDA since they too put a special focus on the ten commandments.
That bears exactly zero relationship to my post.I agree with the Reformers, not the Jesuit cult who served the little horn/beast and conjured preterism.
The Reformers took note all the transitions of the image represent the end of one kingdom and the beginning of another and the feet and toes are no exception. Furthermore, verse 41 affirms the feet and toes as the division of the fourth kingdom into a number of strong and weak “kings” ruling simultaneously. And history affirms the Reformers, not the Jesuit cult.
Moreover, the image is parallel with the beasts of chapter 7, in which Daniel renames the toes as horns upon the Roman beast where another beast arises, the little horn, that subdues three of the horns and is allowed by God to persecute the saints for a time, times, and half a time.
The beast, little horn, can’t be the Roman empire, or Nero because Rome persecuted the saints, the Church, for some two-hundred years, which doesn’t fit the time, times, and half a time.
There are numerous passages about the beast/little horn in Daniel and Revelation that the Reformers were able to reconcile to the papacy and I must agree with them, as opposed to the Jesuit cult.
Come back when you can talk rationally.
If you can.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
So, you don't accept how Jesus interpreted Zechariah 13:7? Talk about ignorance...
Prophecy:
Zechariah 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
Fulfillment:
Matthew 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad. 32 But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee. 33 Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended. 34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.....55 In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me. 56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.
The fulfillment of the prophecy, according to Jesus, related directly to His disciples being afraid and fleeing when they came to take Him away and have Him crucified.
Acts 2
30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, ESV
The antecedent of “his” is David. David’s throne wasn’t in heaven, which Revelation 3:21 and Matthew 25:31 affirm. Like David, Christ was anointed as king when he was raised, and like David, Christ didn’t actually reign as king when he was anointed, but reigns when he returns, according to Revelation 2:27 and Luke 19:12-27.
Acts 2
34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, "'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,
35 until I make your enemies your footstool.' ESV
Hebrews 2:8 affirms, but now we see not yet all things put under him, which substantiates the Premillennialist doctrine on Acts 2:29-34.
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The context of Zechariah 13:7 is about the refining of Israel, which is done by scattering or sowing them in the nations. Talk about ignorance of the OT.
The problem is your comprehension, not my post. Remove the beam from your own eye before you attempt to remove my splinter.
I did not say that you did not read the scripture and go by them. I have learned that most commentators cannot be believed carte blanche as they have not identified for themselves the entity types involved in the scriptures. For example the beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 are in fact wicked rebelling heavenly hosts in league with Satan who are able to influence people, people groups, kingdoms, nation and empires to exhibit their respective dominate characteristic.
We need to look further than just at the human entities that have and are manifesting the respective beats.
Jer 50:39 speaks of the land of Babylon being devasted and desolated if properly translated.
There is a need to question all of the previous commentator and the translations that we all rely on for our understanding of God Prophetic words.
The argument that you have presented does not hold up at all.
Shalom
I understand. But just to give you a brief thought.... the 10 toes were captive, like the clay (Jews) within the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome when the Messiah arrived. After the cross, the 10 toes were symbolically released along with those Jews (pottery clay) who accepted Him as their Messiah. They would go out into the Gentile world preaching the Good news (which of course was the 10 commadmets (horns) to the world, and the Testimony of Jesus. So, the 10 toes existed before the cross, they existed after the cross as 10 horns or powers given to the Gentile peoples. As the church grew tremendously, so did the 10 commandments. The, in verse 7:11, we find that the 4th beast of pagan Rome would be slain and its body destroyed. This also confirms the perfect timing of these 10 toes / horns / kings.... they had to exist in whatever form God used to symbolize them BEFORE THE END OF THE DEMISE OF PAGAN ROME AROUND 476 AD.
Thanks for responding.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Who are you trying to kid here? I said Acts 2:29-36, not Acts 2:30 and Acts 2:34-35. Why did you skip verse 31 where Peter says that the prophecy that he referenced in verse 30 in relation God promising David that one of his (David's) descendants would sit on his (David's) throne was fulfilled by the resurrection of Christ? Why are you being so dishonest here instead of looking at the whole passage and exegeting the whole passage? You think I can't see through that? Please address the whole passage and then we can come back to discussing the comments you made here. That's only fair.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
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