Are you still messing up? Look at Paul

[quietthinker]

Are you still struggling with sin in your life?

Do you understand that sin has been paid for completely by the Lord Jesus Christ?

Though sin still lives in our bodies it has been taken care of; though our bodies are still in the flesh and the flesh has its own desires and if you are a believer you understand that you are given a spirit. If you are someone who is well knowledgeable about the spirit and the flesh; to those of you who do not I would suggest taking a look at Galatians Chapter 5; and reading it all the way through. Also could suggest Colossians 3.

Though sin still lives in our bodies the only way to simmer it down is by building up the spirit with-in so that the flesh dies with Christ in the grave, and we are raised with Christ into a new creation continuing in active faith and prayer and relationship with the Father and the sun.

It might be hard to understand what Paul is saying here but just take it verse by verse, and see what you think about what Paul is saying; I would suggest even going as far to read Romans 5, 6, 7 and 8 collectively as a whole to get a full contextual understanding of what is being laid out by Paul to the Saints in Rome, in which Paul is writing to them around 52 ad (estimation).

I hope you can find comfort in these scriptures and understand your identity, in Christ Jesus.

7 Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

The Law and Sin
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.

16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.

17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.

18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.

20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. (The battle between the flesh and the spirit).

You have done well here Matthew.

 

[MatthewG]

You have done well here Matthew.

Hello QT,

I appreciate your feedback. These were the days where I just about listened to scripture being taught daily. It really helped me in setting all of these things up, men and women must test these things by the spirit though because anything that is good and worthy of keeping is from the Spirit of Christ within me, what is bad and terrible should be forgotten and thrown away.

 

[FearTheLord]

Are you still struggling with sin in your life?

Do you understand that sin has been paid for completely by the Lord Jesus Christ?

Though sin still lives in our bodies it has been taken care of; though our bodies are still in the flesh and the flesh has its own desires and if you are a believer you understand that you are given a spirit. If you are someone who is well knowledgeable about the spirit and the flesh; to those of you who do not I would suggest taking a look at Galatians Chapter 5; and reading it all the way through. Also could suggest Colossians 3.

Though sin still lives in our bodies the only way to simmer it down is by building up the spirit with-in so that the flesh dies with Christ in the grave, and we are raised with Christ into a new creation continuing in active faith and prayer and relationship with the Father and the sun.

It might be hard to understand what Paul is saying here but just take it verse by verse, and see what you think about what Paul is saying; I would suggest even going as far to read Romans 5, 6, 7 and 8 collectively as a whole to get a full contextual understanding of what is being laid out by Paul to the Saints in Rome, in which Paul is writing to them around 52 ad (estimation).

I hope you can find comfort in these scriptures and understand your identity, in Christ Jesus.

7 Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

The Law and Sin
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.

16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.

17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.

18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.

20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. (The battle between the flesh and the spirit).

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying, but Romans 7:7-24 was about Paul's experience under the Law of Moses. It is not descriptive of the born-again life

 

[MatthewG]

Hello @FearTheLord,

Did you read the entire post? While Paul lived a life under the law; he also lived a life under the Holy Spirit as he traveled the regions bringing about the gospel to the known world he had lived in.

 

[FearTheLord]

Hello @FearTheLord,

Did you read the entire post? While Paul lived a life under the law; he also lived a life under the Holy Spirit as he traveled the regions bringing about the gospel to the known world he had lived in.

Yes. I did read the entire post. I'm not exactly sure what you were trying to communicate. It seemed like a mixed message, as if Christians continue in a mixed state of sin and righteousness after being born again. That is absolutely not how Paul or any other New Testament writer taught Christians should actually be. Christians were expected to stop sinning entirely and walk by the Spirit at all times. They understood this to be an attainable reality while still in the mortal body, precisely because we have the Holy Spirit. Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you.

[Rom 6:14 NASB95] 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

[Rom 8:13 NASB95] 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

[Gal 5:16 NASB95] 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

[1Pe 4:1-2 NASB95] 1 Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.

[Jas 3:9-12 NASB95] 9 With it we bless [our] Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; 10 from the same mouth come [both] blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way. 11 Does a fountain send out from the same opening [both] fresh and bitter [water?] 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor [can] salt water produce fresh.

[1Jo 2:1 NASB95] 1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;


​

 

[quietthinker]

Yes. I did read the entire post. I'm not exactly sure what you were trying to communicate. It seemed like a mixed message, as if Christians continue in a mixed state of sin and righteousness after being born again. That is absolutely not how Paul or any other New Testament writer taught Christians should actually be. Christians were expected to stop sinning entirely and walk by the Spirit at all times. They understood this to be an attainable reality while still in the mortal body, precisely because we have the Holy Spirit. Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you.

[Rom 6:14 NASB95] 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

[Rom 8:13 NASB95] 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

[Gal 5:16 NASB95] 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

[1Pe 4:1-2 NASB95] 1 Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.

[Jas 3:9-12 NASB95] 9 With it we bless [our] Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; 10 from the same mouth come [both] blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way. 11 Does a fountain send out from the same opening [both] fresh and bitter [water?] 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor [can] salt water produce fresh.

[1Jo 2:1 NASB95] 1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;


​

Ever met a Christian who has stopped sining entirely?
There might be those who claim they have but even cursory observation reveals a deluded soul.

 

[FearTheLord]

Ever met a Christian who has stopped sining entirely?
There might be those who claim they have but even cursory observation reveals a deluded soul.

I've met a few. Most other Christians won't even entertain what the scriptures actually say.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello @FearTheLord,

Then why didn’t Paul entirely? That would be my question. I’m not advocating it’s good to sin. Which would be to hate your neighbor, continue in life to be greedy, etc… but our flesh does that by its nature. You’re right we are to die to those things, however they do not go away entirely, even though they may lay dormant. My flesh rises up sometimes, and those are the times I’m not abiding in Christ… I believe there is an abundance in self reflection, knowing that we are not personally Jesus. However Yeshua works in and through us to do good things which are of the heavenly.

 

[FearTheLord]

Then why didn’t Paul entirely?

Why do you assume that Paul didn't stop sinning?

I’m not advocating it’s good to sin. Which would be to hate your neighbor, continue in life to be greedy, etc… but our flesh does that by its nature

You’re right we are to die to those things, however they do not go away entirely, even though they may lay dormant.

If we're in Christ, the flesh should be crucified. Putting yourself under the Law of Moses or any form of ascetic regulation will activate those the tendencies of the flesh again. Christians do this all the time with their councils, creeds, and denomitional statements of faith. So it's really important to understand how simple Jesus' commandments really are (just faith and love according to the scriptures), and believe that it's realistically possible to walk by the Spirit all the time.

If you don't believe it's possible, then you will never attain it, or reach maturity.

[Gal 5:24 NASB95] 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
​

We can't spend our lives in and out of sin, and expect to be saved.

[1Jo 3:9 NASB95] 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
​

The first century expectation for Christians was clear.

[Heb 12:3-4 NASB95] 3 For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart. 4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;

​

 

[MatthewG]

Hello @FearTheLord,

Like I stated previously, I am not advocating sin. Even Paul admits, for the people in Rome not to continue to sin. If you believe that you can stop sinning and be flawlessly perfect by the nature of your flesh. My hats off to you, and continue you on doing so. I can not, and its only by abiding in the Lord Yeshua, in which the good things of the heavenly come through from my perspective, and each of us are allowed to have different perspectives. It's just up to individuals to test all things, to see if what you, or even I are saying are even true.

 

[FearTheLord]

each of us are allowed to have different perspectives.

Not on basic doctrinal matters. Christians are supposed to be of one mind. When they weren't, they were abruptly corrected by the apostles.

The only way to abide in Christ is through obedience to his commandments (John 15:10).

If you disagree with what I've shown so far, then show me from the scriptures where I'm wrong. Otherwise, we're not really of the same faith.

 

[Johann]

If we're in Christ, the flesh should be crucified. Putting yourself under the Law of Moses or any form of ascetic regulation will activate those the tendencies of the flesh again. Christians do this all the time with their councils, creeds, and denomitional statements of faith. So it's really important to understand how simple Jesus' commandments really are (just faith and love according to the scriptures), and believe that it's realistically possible to walk by the Spirit all the time.

Oh, I fully concur-what about sanctification? @FearTheLord?

Regeneration, union with Christ, adoption, justification, Spirit baptism—it can all sound so heady, so triumphal. But the Christian’s day-to-day experience often feels the opposite, as we find ourselves struggling with sin in our lives. We resonate with the description of believers this side of glory as simultaneously saint and sinner. As believers in Christ, our status and relationship with the Father, Son, and Spirit are secure, and our future glory is assured. But in the meantime, we battle with sin, falling into our old patterns rather than living out our true identity in Christ. Yet this time of battle with sin is not simply a gap in God’s work of salvation, an oversight in His otherwise perfect plan. It is an important part of what God is doing in believers’ lives. We call this phase of God’s saving work “sanctification.” Sanctification is the process in which the believer is set apart from sin to Christlikeness. If justification is about legally declaring believers righteous through Christ’s righteousness, sanctification is about making them righteous in their actual lives.

The Three Phases of Sanctification
Biblically speaking, there are three phases of sanctification. It begins with positional (or objective) sanctification (Acts 20:32; 26:18; 1 Cor. 6:11). By being united with Christ at conversion, the believer is fundamentally set apart in holiness to God. For this reason, believers are called saints—holy ones (e.g., 1 Cor. 1:2; Eph. 1:1; Phil. 1:1; Col. 1:2). To be sure, believers are already holy in God’s sight because we are justified. But positional sanctification focuses on the reality that believers from the beginning have been changed in regeneration (Titus 3:5; 1 John 3:9) and freed from sin’s dominating power (Rom. 6). The sanctification begun at positional sanctification continues as believers become increasingly more Christlike throughout their lives, though never perfectly. This is called progressive (or subjective) sanctification (Rom. 6:12–13, 19; 12:1–2; 2 Cor. 3:18; Phil. 3:12–14; Col. 3:9–10; Heb. 12:1, 14). The process of sanctification is completed when all vestiges of sin are removed from believers and they are made completely like Christ at His return. This is called final (or perfected) sanctification (Rom. 8:28–30; 1 John 3:2).

Most discussions of sanctification focus on progressive sanctification, since this is the phase of sanctification that pertains to our Christian life this side of heaven. Progressive sanctification has five significant features. The first is that its goal is Christlikeness (Rom. 8:28–30; Eph. 4:13; 1 John 3:2). Sometimes Christians think sanctification is simply about outwardly conforming to a set of rules, as if this constitutes holiness. God’s agenda in our lives is far grander than that. He wants to make us like His Son, holy and righteous from the inside out, including thoughts, attitudes, and motivations as well as actions.

Another feature of progressive sanctification is that it is, as its name indicates, a progressive work. Scripture uses several images like growth (1 Peter 2:2; Eph. 4:11–16), a race (Heb. 12:1–4), or a battle (Eph. 6:10–20) to describe it. The expectation is that the longer we are Christians, the more we grow in maturity toward Christlikeness (Rom. 6:19; Heb. 5:11–6:3; Eph. 4:11–16). Yet we must remember that the process of growth will never be completed in this life; we will not be conformed fully to Christ until final sanctification. Some Christians, however, deny this, claiming that it is possible to achieve sinless perfection in this life. But the New Testament teaches that indwelling sin will continue to remain in us this side of heaven (1 John 1:8–10; 3:2; Rom. 6; Gal. 5:16–25).

A third feature of progressive sanctification is that it is God who sanctifies us in Christ (1 Thess. 5:23; 1 Cor. 1:30; John 15:1–5). In particular, we are sanctified by the Holy Spirit (2 Thess. 2:13; Gal. 5:16–25). We are not able to change ourselves; only God can do that. By His grace, He “has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness” (2 Peter 1:3 ESV). For this reason, some Christians argue that the Christian’s role in sanctification is purely passive. They maintain that we should “let go and let God” sanctify us by getting out of the Spirit’s way in His sanctifying work; our own efforts in our sanctification are fruitless exercises in self-dependence. This view rightly recognizes that only God can sanctify us, and that we must always firmly rest in His gracious provision and entrust ourselves to Him in order to grow (Rom. 6:13, 19; 12:1–2). But it fails to take into account the active role given to believers in the New Testament for their sanctification.

A Fourth Feature of Sanctification
This leads to a fourth feature of progressive sanctification. Believers must cooperate with God’s sanctifying work in their lives. As we have just seen, Peter declares that God has given us all the provision we need for spiritual growth (2 Peter 1:3–4)—but then he immediately tells us “to make every effort” to grow in godliness in light of this provision (vv. 5–11). Similarly, speaking of our sanctification, Paul tells us in Philippians 2:12–13 to “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”—but then why this is possible: “for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure”. Indeed, Scripture repeatedly exhorts Christians to grow in godliness in light of divine provision (e.g., Heb. 12:14; Rom. 8:13; 1 Cor. 6:18; 2 Cor. 7:1; 1 Thess. 4:3; 2 Tim. 2:22).

But how do we cooperate with God’s sanctifying provision? Here we come to a fifth feature of progressive sanctification. Believers must avail themselves of various gracious means that the Spirit uses to sanctify us. We should not think of these as mechanistic processes that force the Spirit’s hand whenever we practice them. Instead, they are our regular practices that He graciously uses to help us grow. In fact, we should not expect to grow if we forsake these means. But they must always be accompanied by trust in God’s power and provision to sanctify us, lest we fall into the trap of thinking we are sanctifying ourselves. These means include prayer (Acts 2:42; Eph. 6:18; Phil. 4:6–7), worship (Acts 2:42; Eph. 5:18–20), reading and meditating on Scripture (John 17:17; 2 Tim. 3:16–17; Heb. 4:12), active obedience (Gal. 5:16–25; John 15:10), self-discipline and denial (Titus 2:12; 1 Cor. 9:24–27), endurance in suffering (James 1:2–4; Rom. 5:3–5), and true fellowship with other believers in the church (Acts 2:42; Eph. 4:11–16; Heb. 10:24–25).

The wise Christian will not treat progressive sanctification as if it were optional. Those who seek to grow in godliness glorify God in their lives (Matt. 5:16); help others to grow (Eph. 4:11–16); experience blessings in this life, such as the fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22–23); and anticipate pleasing their Master when they meet Him face to face (2 Cor. 5:9–10; Rom. 14:10–12). Those who profess to know Christ but forsake progressive sanctification give evidence that they really do not know the Lord they claim (1 John 2:3–6; Rom. 6:1–2). True believers—imperfect, sinful, frequently failing though they may be—continue to fight sin in their lives until Christ calls them home.

Paradoxical, isn't it?

J.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello @FearTheLord,

I don't have the time for such things. You have a nice day.

 

[FearTheLord]

We resonate with the description of believers this side of glory as simultaneously saint and sinner. As believers in Christ, our status and relationship with the Father, Son, and Spirit are secure, and our future glory is assured. But in the meantime, we battle with sin, falling into our old patterns rather than living out our true identity in Christ.

I don't believers should be simultaneously saints and sinners. Such individuals will not be saved if they continue in that state.

I don't believe in justification by faith alone or eternal security (OSAS) either.

Sanctification happens the moment we believe in Christ and repent of our sins. Our responsibility is to remain in that sanctification, walking by the Spirit. It begins with walking righteously. If we don't do this, salvation is aborted.

 

[quietthinker]

I don't believers should be simultaneously saints and sinners. Such individuals will not be saved if they continue in that state.

I don't believe in justification by faith alone or eternal security (OSAS) either.

Sanctification happens the moment we believe in Christ and repent of our sins. Our responsibility is to remain in that sanctification, walking by the Spirit. It begins with walking righteously. If we don't do this, salvation is aborted.

Have you forgotten it is Jesus who saves, not the one being saved.
If salvation is aborted it is aborted by the individual not the Saviour......and how do individuals abort salvation? Is it not by resisting their Saviour?

 

[FearTheLord]

Hello @FearTheLord,

I don't have the time for such things. You have a nice day.

Maybe one day you'll make time, since salvation is a very serious matter.

 

[Johann]

I don't believers should be simultaneously saints and sinners. Such individuals will not be saved if they continue in that state.

I don't believe in justification by faith alone or eternal security (OSAS) either.

Sanctification happens the moment we believe in Christ and repent of our sins. Our responsibility is to remain in that sanctification, walking by the Spirit. It begins with walking righteously. If we don't do this, salvation is aborted.

So sanctification is not progressive, ongoing-or is it?

J.

 

[FearTheLord]

Have you forgotten it is Jesus who saves, not the one being saved.
If salvation is aborted it is aborted by the individual not the Saviour.

That same Jesus also commanded us to obey him in John 15, and gave us the Holy Spirit so that we could obey.

Yes. The believer can abort salvation through disobedience.

 

[FearTheLord]

So sanctification is not progressive, ongoing-or is it?

J.

It's something to be maintained and perfected. In that sense it is progressive, but it begins with cessation of sin by the power of the Holy Spirit. If we're constantly interrupting the process in a prolonged struggle with sin, it will not be completed, which is an abortion of salvation on the believer's part.

 

[quietthinker]

That same Jesus also commanded us to obey him in John 15, and gave us the Holy Spirit so that we could obey.

Yes. The believer can abort salvation through disobedience.

Peter had just gotten on his high horse in John 13:37 when Jesus lets him know that within 24hrs Peter would deny him three times.....yet the next verse, Chapter 14:1-6 Jesus tells him, 'let not your heart be troubled.....'

It appears Peter's 'sanctification' was down the flush after the denial....but before it even happens, Jesus reassures him with those words, ' let not your heart be troubled .....'