Are you still messing up? Look at Paul

[Johann]

That same Jesus also commanded us to obey him in John 15, and gave us the Holy Spirit so that we could obey.

Yes. The believer can abort salvation through disobedience.

Since you don’t believe in OSAS, how would you interpret the use of the perfect tenses in relation to our salvation?

John 19:30 – "It is finished" (Tetelestai)
Meaning: This is a perfect tense verb (tetelestai), which indicates that Jesus' work of atonement on the cross is fully completed, and the effects of that action are ongoing. The perfect tense here conveys that the work is finished, and the results are permanent and enduring.

Romans 5:1 – "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Meaning: "Having been justified" is a perfect passive participle (dedikaiōmenoi). It means that the believers have been justified at a point in the past, and the result of that justification remains true for them. The perfect tense emphasizes that this justification has lasting effects.

Ephesians 2:6 – "And raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus."
Meaning: "Raised us up" and "seated us" are perfect tense verbs (synegeiren and synekathisen). These actions, while describing past events, indicate that the believers' position is secure and unchanging, showing the permanence of their spiritual standing with Christ.

1 John 2:12 – "I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake."
Meaning: "Have been forgiven" is a perfect tense verb (aphiēmi). It indicates that the forgiveness of sins happened in the past but has ongoing, permanent consequences. The forgiveness is not temporary; it continues to apply to the believer.

John 5:24 – "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

Meaning: "Has passed" is a perfect tense verb (metabebēken). It suggests that the believer has already made a definitive transition from death to life, with lasting effects. The believer's status of eternal life is secured and unchanging.

General Meaning of the Perfect Tense
The perfect tense in Greek typically indicates an action that has been completed in the past but has ongoing or lasting results. In the context of salvation, it emphasizes that the work of Christ and the believer's state of being (justified, forgiven, raised, etc.) are permanent and have lasting implications.

Care to elaborate?

J.

 

[Johann]

It's something to be maintained and perfected. In that sense it is progressive, but it begins with cessation of sin by the power of the Holy Spirit. If we're constantly interrupting the process in a prolonged struggle with sin, it will not be completed, which is an abortion of salvation on the believer's part.

Your statement is incorrect-can you reference Scriptures please-especially where sanctification begins with cessation of sins.

J.

 

[Ritajanice]

Romans 6:3-11

King James Version

​

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[FearTheLord]

Peter had just gotten on his high horse in John 13:37 when Jesus lets him know that within 24hrs Peter would deny him three times.....yet the next verse, Chapter 14:1-6 Jesus tells him, 'let not your heart be troubled.....'

So what?

Peter made a mistake both before and after receiving the Holy Spirit. That's what repentance is for. But that's no excuse to think sin is inevitable. Peter himself spoke against that idea.

[1Pe 4:1-2 NASB95] 1 Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.​

 

[FearTheLord]

Your statement is incorrect-can you reference Scriptures please-especially where sanctification begins with cessation of sins.

J.

Sanctification beginning with receiving the Holy Spirit. That takes place upon faith and repentance. Repentance is turning away from sin.

In the moment of faith and repentance, the believer is justified, sanctified, and has ceased from. That cessation is interrupted if (not when) they sin again.

If they continue in sin, they will not be saved. You can't be sanctified if you're not walking by the Spirit that sanctifies you.

 

[quietthinker]

So what?

Peter made a mistake both before and after receiving the Holy Spirit. That's what repentance is for. But that's no excuse to think sin is inevitable. Peter himself spoke against that idea.

[1Pe 4:1-2 NASB95] 1 Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.​

You've missed my point FTL. My point being that Jesus reassurance and that of trusting in God's ability to bring you through in spite of your weaknesses is what Jesus wants us to rely on.

 

[FearTheLord]

Since you don’t believe in OSAS, how would you interpret the use of the perfect tenses in relation to our salvation?

Salvation is complete in Christ. That's the perfect tense, but that doesn't mean all believers will necessarily remain in Christ to complete the race.

In other words, the path is completely cut for us. That's what the perfect tense speaks to.

This is why we're to keep Jesus' deeds by the Spirit, because Jesus completed them.

[Rev 2:26 NASB95] 26 'He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;​

I used to listen to a pastor who made the same arguments that you did from the grammar. Context is more important than grammar. Grammar has all kinds of exceptions and nuances, but context sets the meaning in its place.

 

[FearTheLord]

You've missed my point FTL. My point being that Jesus reassurance and that of trusting in God's ability to bring you through in spite of your weaknesses is what Jesus wants us to rely on.

And it's through reliance upon Jesus that we must completely cease from sin. I understood your point. Do you understand mine?

 

[quietthinker]

And it's through reliance upon Jesus that we must completely cease from sin. I understood your point. Do you understand mine?

I understand your point, so let me ask you this, have you completely ceased from sin?

 

[Johann]

Salvation is complete in Christ. That's the perfect tense, but that doesn't mean all believers will necessarily remain in Christ to complete the race.

In other words, the path is completely cut for us. That's what the perfect tense speaks to.

This is why we're to keep Jesus' deeds by the Spirit, because Jesus completed them.

[Rev 2:26 NASB95] 26 'He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;​

I used to listen to a pastor who made the same arguments that you did from the grammar. Context is more important than grammar. Grammar has all kinds of exceptions and nuances, but context sets the meaning in its place.

I absolutely agree-context is key. However, we don’t need to be scholars to dive deeper into the rich truths of Scripture and uncover its many paradoxes and nuances. To be like the Bereans, noble men and women, means diligently searching the Scriptures day and night.

Here’s my perspective: A "Christian" who abandons the faith and the Way was never truly a Christian to begin with, never sealed with the Holy Spirit. Only those who have the Spirit belong to Christ Jesus. Overcoming, which is akin to sanctification, involves daily overcoming. This process has nothing to do with "sinless perfection" being fully attained in this life.


1 Peter 4:1 – "Therefore, since Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin." (1 Peter 4:1, NASB)

In Greek, this verse uses the perfect tense for the verb pepauetai (πεπαύται), which is significant because it indicates an action that was completed in the past with ongoing effects. The phrase "has ceased from sin" (pepautai tēs hamartias - πεπαύται τῆς ἁμαρτίας) implies that the individual, having suffered in the flesh, has broken the power or dominion of sin.

Does this teach sinless perfection?
No, this verse does not teach sinless perfection in the sense of absolute sinlessness or moral impeccability for believers in this life. Here’s why:

Christ’s Example and the Believer’s Struggle: The context of the letter shows that suffering for righteousness’ sake is a key element in the believer's spiritual formation. Christ, having suffered in the flesh, provides an example for believers to follow. The phrase "arm yourselves with the same mind" suggests that the Christian life involves enduring suffering with the same mindset that Christ had, who was obedient even unto death (Philippians 2:8).

Breaking the Power of Sin: The phrase "has ceased from sin" refers to a break with the power of sin rather than absolute sinlessness. The perfect tense emphasizes that the believer, by uniting with Christ in His suffering, has decisively and definitively ceased from sin in the sense of living under sin’s power (Romans 6:6). This does not mean the believer is completely free from sin in every action or thought, but rather that the dominion or control of sin has been broken in the believer's life.

The Already-Not Yet Tension: While the believer has ceased from sin in terms of the ultimate power and penalty of sin, they still live in a fallen world with a fallen nature. The New Testament consistently acknowledges the tension between the already (the believer's position in Christ) and the not yet (the full experience of sinless perfection, which awaits glorification). This is seen in passages like 1 John 1:8-10, where the apostle John acknowledges the reality of ongoing sin but emphasizes that the believer is cleansed through the blood of Christ.

Spiritual Maturity, Not Moral Impeccability: The verse points to spiritual maturity—when a believer identifies with Christ in His suffering, they are empowered to resist sin and live righteously. The "ceasing from sin" speaks to an orientation of life that is no longer characterized by slavery to sin (Romans 6:18-22), not that they never sin in practice.


1 Peter 4:1 speaks to the believer’s victory over sin’s power in Christ, particularly through suffering and sanctification, but it does not teach sinless perfection in this life. Rather, it encourages believers to arm themselves with the mind of Christ, who suffered for righteousness' sake and was victorious over sin, pointing to the ongoing battle against sin until the final redemption of the believer.

You see the paradoxes?

J.

 

[MatthewG]

Sin has been taken care of by Jesus. What you with that notion is on oneself. Sin for all people has been taken care of because of him giving up his life for all and for his Father will to be done. Now if a person wants life a life filled with sin they can choose that; however if you want to live life in and through abiding through the one who has already done everything for you and was raised again you also can choose to do that. In the end it’s your heart which will be read by Yahavah. You’ll sin less the more you walk in the spirit (that’s Yeshua keeping you from falling.) Your flesh however will never be perfect; like Yeshua in you is perfect. No flesh will ever glory in front of Yahava.

1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

It’s all about resting in Yeshua; allowing God to work with you and allowing Jesus to bring forth the things which are of the heavenly nature by the Spirit of Christ in your heart. Your flesh will still desire what’s opposing.

You are the decider of what you will ultimately do.

 

[Johann]

Sin has been taken care of by Jesus. What you with that notion is on oneself.

Who said otherwise?

J.

 

[FearTheLord]

I understand your point, so let me ask you this, have you completely ceased from sin?

To my knowledge, yes.

 

[FearTheLord]

Here’s my perspective: A "Christian" who abandons the faith and the Way was never truly a Christian to begin with, never sealed with the Holy Spirit. Only those who have the Spirit belong to Christ Jesus. Overcoming, which is akin to sanctification, involves daily overcoming.

The Galatian Christians received the Holy Spirit by faith. Paul told them they were severed from Christ and had fallen from grace.

[Gal 3:2-3 NASB95] 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

[Gal 5:4 NASB95] 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.​

This process has nothing to do with "sinless perfection" being fully attained in this life.

Sinlessness is not the same as perfection. Perfection is maturity. Sinlessness is righteousness. We are to walk in righteousness by the Spirit until perfection is attained.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello to whom it may concern,

I’m not here really to debate against other members of the board. I share my conclusion hopefully by the spirit of Christ with in me. The topic of sinless perfection via the flesh is something I don’t believe in. There are new members of the board who come in with the knowledge they have. Anyone can believe whatever they hear; or whatever they personally think. I’m not here to choose sides. I rather stick to what’s been made known to myself; and share from that vantage point. People are totally responsible for themselves at the cessation of life. Praise and glory to Father and the Son of God.

Thank you.
ps: I’m not always right on everything and can be wrong; hold on to what is good and test for your self what is true.

 

[Johann]

To my knowledge, yes.

Congratulations!! Have mercy on us poor souls who are still running this race!

Philippians 3:12 (KJV)
"Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."

Context
In Philippians 3:12, Paul is speaking about his spiritual journey and the pursuit of Christlikeness. In the preceding verses (Philippians 3:8-11), Paul emphasizes the supreme value of knowing Christ Jesus and gaining righteousness through faith in Him. He compares everything else—his former accomplishments and status—as loss for the sake of Christ (Philippians 3:7). He also mentions his desire to know Christ more fully, including the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings (Philippians 3:10).

In verse 12, Paul acknowledges that he has not yet fully attained the goal of perfection or complete Christlikeness. He recognizes that he is still in the process of being sanctified and has not yet reached the ultimate fulfillment of his salvation (which would occur at Christ's return and the resurrection of the body). He presses forward, continuing the race with the goal of fully knowing Christ and becoming more like Him.

Meaning
"Not as though I had already attained": Paul recognizes that his spiritual journey is ongoing. He has not yet reached the final goal of perfection (which includes complete Christlikeness, resurrection, and glorification).

"Either were already perfect": The word "perfect" here (Greek: τέλειος, teleios) refers to a state of spiritual maturity or completeness, which is still a future goal for Paul. This isn't about moral perfection (sinlessness) but about fully realizing the goal of being like Christ.

"But I follow after": The verb "follow after" (Greek: διώκω, dioko) means to pursue eagerly or to chase after. Paul actively pursues spiritual maturity, striving to reach the goal of becoming fully like Christ.

"If that I may apprehend": The verb "apprehend" (Greek: καταλαμβάνω, katalambano) means to lay hold of or seize. Paul wants to seize the full experience of knowing Christ, as Christ has seized him for this purpose.

"That for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus": Here, Paul reflects on the fact that he was chosen and called by Christ for a specific purpose. Christ has already laid hold of him for this calling, and Paul is pressing forward to fulfill that purpose.

Morphology
"Attained" (Greek: καταντάω, katantaō): Perfect active indicative, 1st person singular. It indicates a state Paul has not yet reached, even though it is something he seeks.

"Perfect" (Greek: τέλειος, teleios): Adjective, nominative singular, describing the state of spiritual maturity or completeness that Paul has not yet achieved.

"Follow after" (Greek: διώκω, dioko): Present active indicative, 1st person singular. This verb expresses Paul's ongoing pursuit of spiritual maturity.

"Apprehend" (Greek: καταλαμβάνω, katalambano): Present active infinitive, indicating an ongoing action of striving to seize or grasp something (in this case, full Christlikeness).

"Apprehended" (Greek: καταλαμβάνω, katalambano): Aorist passive indicative, 1st person singular. This verb reflects that Christ has already seized Paul for His purposes.


In Philippians 3:12, Paul acknowledges that he has not yet reached the fullness of his salvation in Christ. He has not attained to "perfection" (Greek: teleios) in the sense of complete Christlikeness or spiritual maturity, and the full realization of his salvation (including the resurrection body) is still to come. However, he actively pursues this goal, knowing that Christ has already laid hold of him for this purpose. Paul's statement does not refer to moral sinlessness or "sinless perfection" but to the ongoing process of sanctification, which will be completed only in the future.

J.

 

[FearTheLord]

Iron only sharpens iron if they engage with each other.

 

[quietthinker]

To my knowledge, yes.

You're in a deep hole if your knowledge is faulty ....particularly if it is according to your deductions.

My experience is that the closer I get to understanding Jesus and having him with me, the more shortcomings I see in myself but also the greater my gratitude.

 

[FearTheLord]

You're in a deep hole if your knowledge is faulty ....particularly if it is according to your deductions.

My experience is that the closer I get to understanding Jesus and having him with me, the more shortcomings I see in myself but also the greater my gratefulness

Don't evaluate me by your experiences, but acknowledge the scriptures for what they say. I have the Holy Spirit, and he alerts me to what I need to know.

 

[Johann]

The Galatian Christians received the Holy Spirit by faith. Paul told them they were severed from Christ and had fallen from grace.

[Gal 3:2-3 NASB95] 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

[Gal 5:4 NASB95] 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.​

Sinlessness is not the same as perfection. Perfection is maturity. Sinlessness is righteousness. We are to walk in righteousness by the Spirit until perfection is attained.

So you are mature AND sinless? In word, thought AND deed?

J.