Are You Dead to Self?

[Peterlag]

Galatians 2:20
Verse: "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."

Explanation: Paul speaks of his union with Christ in his crucifixion, indicating that his old self, with its sinful desires, has been put to death. Now, Christ lives in him, and his life is defined by faith in Jesus.

Romans 6:6-7
Verses: "We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin."

Explanation: Paul explains that through Christ's crucifixion, believers' old sinful nature has been put to death, liberating them from sin's power.

Colossians 3:3
Verse: "For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God."

Explanation: Believers have died to their old selves and their lives are now securely hidden with Christ in God, indicating a profound spiritual transformation and new identity in Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Verse: "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."

Explanation: In Christ, believers are new creations. The old self, characterized by sin and self-centeredness, has passed away, and a new life has begun.

Ephesians 4:22-24
Verses: "To put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness."

Explanation: Paul instructs believers to actively discard their old selves and embrace their new identity in Christ, characterized by righteousness and holiness.


Theological and Practical Implications
Theological Implications: The idea of being "dead to self" reflects a profound theological truth about the believer's union with Christ in his death and resurrection. It underscores the transformative power of the gospel, which not only forgives sin but also empowers believers to live new lives in Christ.

Practical Implications: Living as one who is "dead to self" involves daily decisions to deny selfish desires, take up one's cross, and follow Jesus (Luke 9:23). It means prioritizing God's will and purposes over personal ambitions and comforts.


Cross-References and Related Concepts
Luke 9:23: "And he said to all, 'If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.'"
Philippians 3:8-10: "Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him... that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death."
These passages collectively provide a robust biblical foundation for understanding the concept of being "dead to self," highlighting the transformative and sacrificial nature of the Christian life.

Powerful, no wonder this is not widely accepted in this modern day world-the ego eimi needs to be dethroned, once, and once for all.

Johann

What I see in Galatians 2:20 is that nobody died to self. He was crucified (by the work of somebody else) with Christ. Same with Colossians 3:3. Same with 2 Corinthians 5:17. Nobody is dying to self. God has killed your old man nature. The book of Luke was before there were Christians. Ephesians 4:22-24 is referring to changing your thinking to line up with the new nature.

 

[Peterlag]

You might be wrong-no offense brother.

Crucifying the Flesh with Its Lusts: Removing an Impediment to Living Out Our New Self

The concept of crucifying the flesh with its lusts is an important aspect of Christian sanctification. It involves putting to death the sinful desires and inclinations that belong to our old nature, thereby removing obstacles that hinder us from living out our new identity in Christ. This process is both a decisive act and an ongoing effort, supported by several key New Testament passages.

Key Verses and Exegesis
Galatians 5:24
Verse: "And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

Explanation: This verse highlights that believers, through their union with Christ, have decisively crucified the flesh. The term "crucified" (Greek: ἐσταύρωσαν, estaurōsan) is in the aorist tense, indicating a past, completed action. The "flesh" (Greek: σάρξ, sarx) refers to the sinful nature, and "passions and desires" (Greek: τὰς παθήματα καὶ τὰς ἐπιθυμίας, tas pathēmata kai tas epithumias) denote the impulses and cravings that arise from it. By crucifying these, believers remove significant barriers to living out their new life in Christ.

Romans 6:6-7
Verses: "We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin."

Explanation: Paul asserts that the "old self" (Greek: ὁ παλαιὸς ἄνθρωπος, ho palaios anthrōpos) was crucified with Christ. This crucifixion aims to render the "body of sin" (Greek: τὸ σῶμα τῆς ἁμαρτίας, to sōma tēs hamartias) powerless, thus liberating believers from sin’s dominion.

Colossians 3:5
Verse: "Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry."

Explanation: The phrase "put to death" (Greek: νεκρώσατε, nekrosate) is a command in the aorist imperative, urging believers to decisively and actively eradicate sinful behaviors and inclinations. This ongoing process is essential for living out the new self in Christ.

Ephesians 4:22-24
Verses: "To put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness."

Explanation: Paul instructs believers to "put off" (Greek: ἀποθέσθαι, apothesthai) the old self and its corrupt desires and to "put on" (Greek: ἐνδύσασθαι, endysasthai) the new self. This involves a continuous renewal of the mind and a commitment to living in accordance with God’s righteousness and holiness.

Theological and Practical Implications
Theological Implications
Union with Christ: The crucifixion of the flesh signifies believers' union with Christ in his death and resurrection (Romans 6:5). This union is both a positional reality and a transformative process.

Sanctification: Crucifying the flesh is a critical aspect of sanctification, the process by which believers are progressively conformed to the image of Christ (2 Corinthians 3:18).

Practical Implications
Daily Denial: Believers are called to daily deny themselves, take up their cross, and follow Jesus (Luke 9:23). This involves a continuous rejection of sinful desires and a commitment to godly living.

Empowerment by the Spirit: The Holy Spirit empowers believers to crucify the flesh and live out their new identity. This includes producing the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), which contrasts with the works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21).

Cross References
Romans 8:13: "For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

1 Peter 2:11: "Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul."

1 Corinthians 9:27: "But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."

Philippians 3:18-19: "For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things."

Galatians 2:20: "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."

Conclusion
The crucifixion of the flesh with its lusts is a decisive act that removes significant impediments to living out the new self in Christ. This process, supported by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit and the renewal of the mind, allows believers to live in accordance with God's will, characterized by righteousness and holiness. The ongoing nature of this transformation is a vital aspect of the Christian life, reflecting both the believer's union with Christ and their commitment to spiritual growth and sanctification.

More info should you wish.
Johann.

I have nothing in me that involves putting to death the sinful desires and inclinations that belong to our old nature, thereby removing obstacles that hinder me from living out my new identity in Christ. Walking in the spirit for me is not an act of an ongoing effort.

 

[Johann]

What I see in Galatians 2:20 is that nobody died to self. He was crucified (by the work of somebody else) with Christ. Same with Colossians 3:3. Same with 2 Corinthians 5:17. Nobody is dying to self. God has killed your old man nature. The book of Luke was before there were Christians. Ephesians 4:22-24 is referring to changing your thinking to line up with the new nature.

What you see and what I see is not the same-no offense.

Let's check.

Galatians 2:20
Text:
"I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."

Exegesis:
"I have been crucified" (Greek: συνεσταύρωμαι, synestaurōmai): This verb is in the perfect tense, indicating a past action with continuing results. Paul speaks of a decisive event that continues to impact his present life.


"It is no longer I who live": This signifies the end of the old self's dominion. The "I" that was dominated by sin is no longer in control.
"Christ who lives in me": Christ's life now animates the believer, indicating a fundamental transformation of identity and source of life.

Colossians 3:3
Text:
"For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God."

Exegesis:
"You have died" (Greek: ἀπεθάνετε, apethanete): The aorist tense here signifies a past, completed action. Believers have died with Christ, which marks the end of the old sinful nature.

"Your life is hidden": This implies a new, secure position in Christ, contrasting the old life that has been put to death.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Text:
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."

Exegesis:
"The old has passed away" (Greek: τὰ ἀρχαῖα παρῆλθεν, ta archaia parēlthen): This phrase indicates the definitive end of the old nature.
"The new has come" (Greek: γέγονεν καινά, gegonen kaina): The perfect tense indicates the arrival of something new with lasting effect.
Luke 9:23
Text:
"And he said to all, 'If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.'"

Exegesis:
"Deny himself" (Greek: ἀπαρνησάσθω ἑαυτόν, aparnēsasthō heauton): This verb is in the aorist imperative, calling for a decisive act of renunciation.
"Take up his cross daily": This metaphor of the cross, a symbol of death, implies ongoing self-denial and willingness to follow Christ at all costs.

Ephesians 4:22-24
Text:
"To put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness."

Exegesis:
"Put off your old self" (Greek: ἀποθέσθαι τὸν παλαιὸν ἄνθρωπον, apothesthai ton palaion anthrōpon): The aorist infinitive suggests a decisive action.

"Be renewed in the spirit of your minds": This renewal is a continuous process that involves aligning one’s thoughts with the new nature.

"Put on the new self" (Greek: ἐνδύσασθαι τὸν καινὸν ἄνθρωπον, endysasthai ton kainon anthrōpon): Again, the aorist infinitive indicates a decisive act.

Addressing your Objections @Peterlag

"Nobody died to self. He was crucified (by the work of somebody else) with Christ."

While it is true that the crucifixion with Christ is an act accomplished through Christ’s work and not by our own effort, the implications of this union require an active response from believers. Being crucified with Christ means that believers are called to live out the reality of this crucifixion by denying the old self’s desires and living according to the new nature.

"Same with Colossians 3:3 and 2 Corinthians 5:17."

In these passages, the death to the old self is presented as a definitive past event that believers are to reckon with and live in light of. The transformation to a new creation implies a new way of living that continually rejects the old nature.

"The book of Luke was before there were Christians."

While Luke 9:23 was indeed spoken before the formation of the Church, it sets forth the principle of discipleship that remains relevant. Jesus’ call to take up the cross and deny oneself is foundational to Christian living and is echoed throughout the New Testament.

"Ephesians 4:22-24 is referring to changing your thinking to line up with the new nature."

This is partly true; the renewal of the mind is indeed a critical component. However, putting off the old self and putting on the new self involves more than just cognitive change; it requires a fundamental reorientation of one’s entire life and conduct.

Hence--
The New Testament teaches that believers, through their union with Christ, have decisively died to their old sinful nature.

This crucifixion with Christ is both a positional reality and a transformative process. While the initial act is accomplished through Christ’s work, believers are called to actively live out this reality by continually denying the old self and embracing the new life in Christ.

This process involves daily self-denial, the renewal of the mind, and the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. The combined witness of these key passages underscores the necessity of dying to self as integral to the Christian journey.

Unless, of course, you believe the "old man" is somehow surgically removed, as Mr. Wuest advocates.

When Christ Jesus died, WE died-or at least, I should hope so-and since WE died WE died to the ego eimi and lusts and passions-correct? Now, who is the EGO EIMI?

Thanks
J.

 

[Johann]

I have nothing in me that involves putting to death the sinful desires and inclinations that belong to our old nature, thereby removing obstacles that hinder me from living out my new identity in Christ. Walking in the spirit for me is not an act of an ongoing effort.

No problem then-you have done what Paul couldn't do-you have "arrived"-no pun intended.

 

[Johann]

What you see and what I see is not the same-no offense.

Let's check.

Galatians 2:20
Text:
"I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."

Exegesis:
"I have been crucified" (Greek: συνεσταύρωμαι, synestaurōmai): This verb is in the perfect tense, indicating a past action with continuing results. Paul speaks of a decisive event that continues to impact his present life.


"It is no longer I who live": This signifies the end of the old self's dominion. The "I" that was dominated by sin is no longer in control.
"Christ who lives in me": Christ's life now animates the believer, indicating a fundamental transformation of identity and source of life.

Colossians 3:3
Text:
"For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God."

Exegesis:
"You have died" (Greek: ἀπεθάνετε, apethanete): The aorist tense here signifies a past, completed action. Believers have died with Christ, which marks the end of the old sinful nature.

"Your life is hidden": This implies a new, secure position in Christ, contrasting the old life that has been put to death.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Text:
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."

Exegesis:
"The old has passed away" (Greek: τὰ ἀρχαῖα παρῆλθεν, ta archaia parēlthen): This phrase indicates the definitive end of the old nature.
"The new has come" (Greek: γέγονεν καινά, gegonen kaina): The perfect tense indicates the arrival of something new with lasting effect.
Luke 9:23
Text:
"And he said to all, 'If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.'"

Exegesis:
"Deny himself" (Greek: ἀπαρνησάσθω ἑαυτόν, aparnēsasthō heauton): This verb is in the aorist imperative, calling for a decisive act of renunciation.
"Take up his cross daily": This metaphor of the cross, a symbol of death, implies ongoing self-denial and willingness to follow Christ at all costs.

Ephesians 4:22-24
Text:
"To put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness."

Exegesis:
"Put off your old self" (Greek: ἀποθέσθαι τὸν παλαιὸν ἄνθρωπον, apothesthai ton palaion anthrōpon): The aorist infinitive suggests a decisive action.

"Be renewed in the spirit of your minds": This renewal is a continuous process that involves aligning one’s thoughts with the new nature.

"Put on the new self" (Greek: ἐνδύσασθαι τὸν καινὸν ἄνθρωπον, endysasthai ton kainon anthrōpon): Again, the aorist infinitive indicates a decisive act.

Addressing your Objections @Peterlag

"Nobody died to self. He was crucified (by the work of somebody else) with Christ."

While it is true that the crucifixion with Christ is an act accomplished through Christ’s work and not by our own effort, the implications of this union require an active response from believers. Being crucified with Christ means that believers are called to live out the reality of this crucifixion by denying the old self’s desires and living according to the new nature.

"Same with Colossians 3:3 and 2 Corinthians 5:17."

In these passages, the death to the old self is presented as a definitive past event that believers are to reckon with and live in light of. The transformation to a new creation implies a new way of living that continually rejects the old nature.

"The book of Luke was before there were Christians."

While Luke 9:23 was indeed spoken before the formation of the Church, it sets forth the principle of discipleship that remains relevant. Jesus’ call to take up the cross and deny oneself is foundational to Christian living and is echoed throughout the New Testament.

"Ephesians 4:22-24 is referring to changing your thinking to line up with the new nature."

This is partly true; the renewal of the mind is indeed a critical component. However, putting off the old self and putting on the new self involves more than just cognitive change; it requires a fundamental reorientation of one’s entire life and conduct.

Hence--
The New Testament teaches that believers, through their union with Christ, have decisively died to their old sinful nature.

This crucifixion with Christ is both a positional reality and a transformative process. While the initial act is accomplished through Christ’s work, believers are called to actively live out this reality by continually denying the old self and embracing the new life in Christ.

This process involves daily self-denial, the renewal of the mind, and the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. The combined witness of these key passages underscores the necessity of dying to self as integral to the Christian journey.

Unless, of course, you believe the "old man" is somehow surgically removed, as Mr. Wuest advocates.

When Christ Jesus died, WE died-or at least, I should hope so-and since WE died WE died to the ego eimi and lusts and passions-correct? Now, who is the EGO EIMI?

Thanks
J.

Something which you have missed--

The New Testament contains several key passages that speak of mortifying or putting to death the old man and the flesh. Below, I will provide the relevant passages, along with the Greek words and morphological explanations.

Key Passages and Exegesis
Romans 8:13
Verse: "For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death (θανατοῦτε, thanatoute) the deeds of the body, you will live."

Greek Word: θανατοῦτε (thanatoute)
Morphology: Present active indicative, 2nd person plural of θανατόω (thanatoō)
Explanation: The verb "put to death" is in the present tense, indicating an ongoing action. Believers are called to continually put to death the deeds of the body through the power of the Spirit.

Colossians 3:5
Verse: "Put to death (νεκρώσατε, nekrosate) therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry."

Greek Word: νεκρώσατε (nekrosate)
Morphology: Aorist active imperative, 2nd person plural of νεκρόω (nekroō)

Explanation: The verb "put to death" is in the aorist tense, indicating a decisive, once-for-all action. Believers are commanded to decisively put to death what is earthly in them.

Galatians 5:24
Verse: "And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified (ἐσταύρωσαν, estaurōsan) the flesh with its passions and desires."
Greek Word: ἐσταύρωσαν (estaurōsan)

Morphology: Aorist active indicative, 3rd person plural of σταυρόω (stauroō)

Explanation: The verb "have crucified" is in the aorist tense, indicating a past action with continuing effects. Believers have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires at the moment of conversion, but the effects are ongoing.

Ephesians 4:22
Verse: "To put off (ἀποθέσθαι, apothesthai) your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires."

Greek Word: ἀποθέσθαι (apothesthai)
Morphology: Aorist middle infinitive of ἀποτίθημι (apotithēmi)

Explanation: The verb "put off" is in the aorist tense, indicating a decisive action. Believers are to decisively put off their old self as part of their conversion and ongoing sanctification.

Colossians 3:9
Verse: "Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off (ἀπεκδυσάμενοι, apekdysamenoi) the old self with its practices."
Greek Word: ἀπεκδυσάμενοι (apekdysamenoi)
Morphology: Aorist middle participle, nominative masculine plural of ἀπεκδύομαι (apekdyomai)

Explanation: The participle "put off" is in the aorist tense, indicating a completed action. Believers have already put off the old self with its practices, indicating a definitive break with the past.

Romans 6:6
Verse: "We know that our old self was crucified (συνεσταυρώθη, synestaurōthē) with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin."
Greek Word: συνεσταυρώθη (synestaurōthē)

Morphology: Aorist passive indicative, 3rd person singular of συσταυρόω (synstauroō)

Explanation: The verb "was crucified" is in the aorist tense, indicating a past action. The passive voice indicates that this crucifixion of the old self is something done to believers, emphasizing God's action in salvation.

Summary of Greek Words and Morphological Explanations

θανατοῦτε (thanatoute): Present active indicative, ongoing action of putting to death the deeds of the body.

νεκρώσατε (nekrosate): Aorist active imperative, a decisive command to put to death what is earthly.

ἐσταύρωσαν (estaurōsan): Aorist active indicative, past action with ongoing effects of crucifying the flesh.

ἀποθέσθαι (apothesthai): Aorist middle infinitive, decisive action of putting off the old self.

ἀπεκδυσάμενοι (apekdysamenoi): Aorist middle participle, indicating a completed action of putting off the old self.

 

[Peterlag]

No problem then-you have done what Paul couldn't do-you have "arrived"-no pun intended.

Paul did it to. It's not the body, but the spirit that has become a new creature. In other words, it's in the spirit that we have become a brand-new species because our spirit is totally new and therefore there is not an old sin nature left in us. We undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have the spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ. The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.

The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ. The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real. So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian. I know this comes as a complete shock to many of you who have been indoctrinated in the-old-nature-versus-the-new-nature theology. Most Christians have been taught to believe that after salvation, they are still the same at their core, and they live the rest of their lives trying to restrain this old nature. They believe they have two natures. The Christians of today believe they are alive to sin and it's with much effort, frustration, and failure that they battle this sin nature the rest of their lives.

 

[Peterlag]

What you see and what I see is not the same-no offense.

Let's check.

Galatians 2:20
Text:
"I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."

Exegesis:
"I have been crucified" (Greek: συνεσταύρωμαι, synestaurōmai): This verb is in the perfect tense, indicating a past action with continuing results. Paul speaks of a decisive event that continues to impact his present life.


"It is no longer I who live": This signifies the end of the old self's dominion. The "I" that was dominated by sin is no longer in control.
"Christ who lives in me": Christ's life now animates the believer, indicating a fundamental transformation of identity and source of life.

Colossians 3:3
Text:
"For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God."

Exegesis:
"You have died" (Greek: ἀπεθάνετε, apethanete): The aorist tense here signifies a past, completed action. Believers have died with Christ, which marks the end of the old sinful nature.

"Your life is hidden": This implies a new, secure position in Christ, contrasting the old life that has been put to death.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Text:
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."

Exegesis:
"The old has passed away" (Greek: τὰ ἀρχαῖα παρῆλθεν, ta archaia parēlthen): This phrase indicates the definitive end of the old nature.
"The new has come" (Greek: γέγονεν καινά, gegonen kaina): The perfect tense indicates the arrival of something new with lasting effect.
Luke 9:23
Text:
"And he said to all, 'If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.'"

Exegesis:
"Deny himself" (Greek: ἀπαρνησάσθω ἑαυτόν, aparnēsasthō heauton): This verb is in the aorist imperative, calling for a decisive act of renunciation.
"Take up his cross daily": This metaphor of the cross, a symbol of death, implies ongoing self-denial and willingness to follow Christ at all costs.

Ephesians 4:22-24
Text:
"To put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness."

Exegesis:
"Put off your old self" (Greek: ἀποθέσθαι τὸν παλαιὸν ἄνθρωπον, apothesthai ton palaion anthrōpon): The aorist infinitive suggests a decisive action.

"Be renewed in the spirit of your minds": This renewal is a continuous process that involves aligning one’s thoughts with the new nature.

"Put on the new self" (Greek: ἐνδύσασθαι τὸν καινὸν ἄνθρωπον, endysasthai ton kainon anthrōpon): Again, the aorist infinitive indicates a decisive act.

Addressing your Objections @Peterlag

"Nobody died to self. He was crucified (by the work of somebody else) with Christ."

While it is true that the crucifixion with Christ is an act accomplished through Christ’s work and not by our own effort, the implications of this union require an active response from believers. Being crucified with Christ means that believers are called to live out the reality of this crucifixion by denying the old self’s desires and living according to the new nature.

"Same with Colossians 3:3 and 2 Corinthians 5:17."

In these passages, the death to the old self is presented as a definitive past event that believers are to reckon with and live in light of. The transformation to a new creation implies a new way of living that continually rejects the old nature.

"The book of Luke was before there were Christians."

While Luke 9:23 was indeed spoken before the formation of the Church, it sets forth the principle of discipleship that remains relevant. Jesus’ call to take up the cross and deny oneself is foundational to Christian living and is echoed throughout the New Testament.

"Ephesians 4:22-24 is referring to changing your thinking to line up with the new nature."

This is partly true; the renewal of the mind is indeed a critical component. However, putting off the old self and putting on the new self involves more than just cognitive change; it requires a fundamental reorientation of one’s entire life and conduct.

Hence--
The New Testament teaches that believers, through their union with Christ, have decisively died to their old sinful nature.

This crucifixion with Christ is both a positional reality and a transformative process. While the initial act is accomplished through Christ’s work, believers are called to actively live out this reality by continually denying the old self and embracing the new life in Christ.
obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian.
This process involves daily self-denial, the renewal of the mind, and the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. The combined witness of these key passages underscores the necessity of dying to self as integral to the Christian journey.

Unless, of course, you believe the "old man" is somehow surgically removed, as Mr. Wuest advocates.

When Christ Jesus died, WE died-or at least, I should hope so-and since WE died WE died to the ego eimi and lusts and passions-correct? Now, who is the EGO EIMI?

Thanks
J.

Yes you are correct. We see it different. You believe Paul is still living in his old nature trying to slug it out to follow Christ. I see the old nature being totally obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian.

 

[Johann]

Yes you are correct. We see it different. You believe Paul is still living in his old nature trying to slug it out to follow Christ. I see the old nature being totally obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian.

I don't want to come across as argumentative but I firmly believe Paul in Rom 7 is Paul the regenerate man-praise God for Rom 7!
The question of whether the sinful nature is eradicated from the believer or remains is a significant theological debate within Christian circles. This discussion involves interpreting various biblical texts and understanding the nature of sanctification, the process by which believers are made holy. Let's explore this question using relevant biblical references and theological insights.

Biblical Texts
Sinful Nature Eradicated:
Romans 6:6-7:

"For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—because anyone who has died has been set free from sin."

Greek Terms:
"Old self" (ὁ παλαιὸς ἡμῶν ἄνθρωπος, ho palaios hēmōn anthrōpos)
"Crucified" (συνεσταυρώθη, synestaurōthē)
"Done away with" (καταργηθῇ, katargēthē)

2 Corinthians 5:17:

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!"
Greek Terms:
"New creation" (καινὴ κτίσις, kainē ktisis)
"Old has gone" (τὰ ἀρχαῖα παρῆλθεν, ta archaia parēlthen)
Galatians 2:20:

"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."
Greek Terms:
"Crucified" (συνεσταύρωμαι, synestaurōmai)
"I no longer live" (οὐκέτι ἐγώ, ouketi egō)

Sinful Nature Remains:
Romans 7:18-20:

"For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."
Greek Terms:
"Sinful nature" (σαρξ, sarx)
"Sin living in me" (ἡ οἰκοῦσα ἐν ἐμοὶ ἁμαρτία, hē oikousa en emoi hamartia)
Galatians 5:17:

"For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want."
Greek Terms:
"Flesh" (σάρξ, sarx)
"Spirit" (πνεῦμα, pneuma)
1 John 1:8:

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."
Greek Terms:
"Without sin" (ἁμαρτίαν οὐκ ἔχομεν, hamartian ouk echomen)
Theological Perspectives

Wesleyan/Arminian View:

Emphasizes the possibility of Christian perfection and entire sanctification, where the sinful nature can be eradicated through a second work of grace.
Key Verses: Romans 6:6-7, 2 Corinthians 5:17.
Reformed/Calvinist View:

Believes in the ongoing presence of the sinful nature, but emphasizes the believer's position in Christ and the process of sanctification.
Key Verses: Romans 7:18-20, Galatians 5:17.
Lutheran View:

Holds that the sinful nature remains in the believer, but the believer is simultaneously justified and sinner (simul justus et peccator).
Key Verses: 1 John 1:8, Romans 7:18-20.

Conclusion
The Bible presents a complex picture of the believer's struggle with sin. On one hand, passages like Romans 6:6-7 and 2 Corinthians 5:17 emphasize the believer's new identity in Christ and the crucifixion of the old self. On the other hand, passages like Romans 7:18-20 and Galatians 5:17 acknowledge the ongoing conflict between the flesh and the Spirit.

Thus, it appears that while believers are given a new nature and are no longer slaves to sin, the presence of the sinful nature still lingers, necessitating a continual process of sanctification. This process involves daily crucifying the flesh (Galatians 5:24) and living by the Spirit (Galatians 5:16).

Scriptural Cross-References
Ephesians 4:22-24: "To put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness."

Colossians 3:5-10: "Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry... seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator."

1 Peter 2:24: "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed."

Romans 8:13: "For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

Romans 12:2: "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect."

These references collectively illustrate the dynamic tension in the Christian life between the old and new natures, highlighting the ongoing need for reliance on God's grace and the work of the Holy Spirit.

Are you holding to the Wesleyan view?

Johann

 

[Peterlag]

I don't want to come across as argumentative but I firmly believe Paul in Rom 7 is Paul the regenerate man-praise God for Rom 7!
The question of whether the sinful nature is eradicated from the believer or remains is a significant theological debate within Christian circles. This discussion involves interpreting various biblical texts and understanding the nature of sanctification, the process by which believers are made holy. Let's explore this question using relevant biblical references and theological insights.

Biblical Texts
Sinful Nature Eradicated:
Romans 6:6-7:

"For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—because anyone who has died has been set free from sin."

Greek Terms:
"Old self" (ὁ παλαιὸς ἡμῶν ἄνθρωπος, ho palaios hēmōn anthrōpos)
"Crucified" (συνεσταυρώθη, synestaurōthē)
"Done away with" (καταργηθῇ, katargēthē)

2 Corinthians 5:17:

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!"
Greek Terms:
"New creation" (καινὴ κτίσις, kainē ktisis)
"Old has gone" (τὰ ἀρχαῖα παρῆλθεν, ta archaia parēlthen)
Galatians 2:20:

"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."
Greek Terms:
"Crucified" (συνεσταύρωμαι, synestaurōmai)
"I no longer live" (οὐκέτι ἐγώ, ouketi egō)

Sinful Nature Remains:
Romans 7:18-20:

"For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."
Greek Terms:
"Sinful nature" (σαρξ, sarx)
"Sin living in me" (ἡ οἰκοῦσα ἐν ἐμοὶ ἁμαρτία, hē oikousa en emoi hamartia)
Galatians 5:17:

"For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want."
Greek Terms:
"Flesh" (σάρξ, sarx)
"Spirit" (πνεῦμα, pneuma)
1 John 1:8:

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."
Greek Terms:
"Without sin" (ἁμαρτίαν οὐκ ἔχομεν, hamartian ouk echomen)
Theological Perspectives

Wesleyan/Arminian View:

Emphasizes the possibility of Christian perfection and entire sanctification, where the sinful nature can be eradicated through a second work of grace.
Key Verses: Romans 6:6-7, 2 Corinthians 5:17.
Reformed/Calvinist View:

Believes in the ongoing presence of the sinful nature, but emphasizes the believer's position in Christ and the process of sanctification.
Key Verses: Romans 7:18-20, Galatians 5:17.
Lutheran View:

Holds that the sinful nature remains in the believer, but the believer is simultaneously justified and sinner (simul justus et peccator).
Key Verses: 1 John 1:8, Romans 7:18-20.

Conclusion
The Bible presents a complex picture of the believer's struggle with sin. On one hand, passages like Romans 6:6-7 and 2 Corinthians 5:17 emphasize the believer's new identity in Christ and the crucifixion of the old self. On the other hand, passages like Romans 7:18-20 and Galatians 5:17 acknowledge the ongoing conflict between the flesh and the Spirit.

Thus, it appears that while believers are given a new nature and are no longer slaves to sin, the presence of the sinful nature still lingers, necessitating a continual process of sanctification. This process involves daily crucifying the flesh (Galatians 5:24) and living by the Spirit (Galatians 5:16).

Scriptural Cross-References
Ephesians 4:22-24: "To put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness."

Colossians 3:5-10: "Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry... seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator."

1 Peter 2:24: "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed."

Romans 8:13: "For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

Romans 12:2: "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect."

These references collectively illustrate the dynamic tension in the Christian life between the old and new natures, highlighting the ongoing need for reliance on God's grace and the work of the Holy Spirit.

Are you holding to the Wesleyan view?

Johann

Romans 7 tells us right up at the top of the chapter that Paul is talking to those who are into or know the law. And then the context of the whole chapter is how we can see it's all about Israel and their Law and how they toy with their flesh. What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands. Romans 8 states "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin..."

 

[Hepzibah]

@Johann

You are confusing the 'old man' or old nature with self and interpreting the Greek as 'self' mistakenly. The KJV does not do that.

Self is not the problem. It is in selfishness where we err. That is why self is to be denied not killed. We are told to:

Leviticus 19:18
Verse Concepts
You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.

Matthew 19:19
Verse Concepts
Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Matthew 22:39
Verse Concepts
The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

Mark 12:31
Verse Concepts
The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Luke 10:27
Verse Concepts
And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.”

Romans 13:9
Verse Concepts
For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Galatians 5:14
Verse Concepts
For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

James 2:8
Verse Concepts
If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.

Romans 13:8
Verse Concepts
Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

Matthew 5:43
Verse Concepts
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

Matthew 5:44
Verse Concepts
But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Luke 6:27
Verse Concepts
“But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

Luke 6:35
Verse Concepts
But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.

Matthew 5:46
Verse Concepts
For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

Luke 6:32
Verse Concepts
If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.

Deuteronomy 10:19
Verse Concepts
So show your love for the alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt.

Leviticus 19:34
Verse Concepts
The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the Lord your God.

Mark 12:33
Verse Concepts
and to love Him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as himself, is much more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

Source: 18 Bible verses about Love Your Neighbour

It is clear that we are to put others on the same level as ourselves and love them as we are commanded to love ourselves. Sinful man operating from the old man, loves himself first. This action of our nature is to be denied. And also our natural instincts where we are to obey the Spirit instead. Denial of self.

If self is to be killed, then there is no point in any of the verses quoted. We are to see our old man crucified with Christ or that life we lived, led from the flesh and selfish.

 

[Ritajanice]

​

◄ 2 Corinthians 3 ►

​

New International Version Par ▾ 1Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? 2You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everyone. 3You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4Such confidence we have through Christ before God. 5Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. The Greater Glory of the New Covenant 7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! 12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate a the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

 

[Johann]

You are confusing the 'old man' or old nature with self and interpreting the Greek as 'self' mistakenly. The KJV does not do that.

Self is not the problem. It is in selfishness where we err. That is why self is to be denied not killed. We are told to:

It becomes clear that the issue lies in selfishness (φιλαυτία) rather than the existence of self (αὐτός), and the scriptural directive is to deny (ἀπαρνέομαι) the self's corrupt inclinations while dying to the 'old man' (ὁ παλαιὸς ἄνθρωπος), signifying the termination of the old sinful nature.

J.

 

[Johann]

Romans 7 tells us right up at the top of the chapter that Paul is talking to those who are into or know the law. And then the context of the whole chapter is how we can see it's all about Israel and their Law and how they toy with their flesh. What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands. Romans 8 states "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin..."

I notice you do not answer direct questions @Peterlag


Romans 7:7-25: The Struggle with Sin
Verses 7-8
Greek: Τί οὖν ἐροῦμεν; ὁ νόμος ἁμαρτία; Μὴ γένοιτο. ἀλλὰ τὴν ἁμαρτίαν οὐκ ἔγνων εἰ μὴ διὰ νόμου· τήν τε γὰρ ἐπιθυμίαν οὐκ ᾔδειν εἰ μὴ ὁ νόμος ἔλεγεν, Οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις. ἀφορμὴν δὲ λαβοῦσα ἡ ἁμαρτία διὰ τῆς ἐντολῆς κατειργάσατο ἐν ἐμοὶ πᾶσαν ἐπιθυμίαν· χωρὶς γὰρ νόμου ἁμαρτία νεκρά.

Translation: What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead.


Syntactic Force and Context: Paul anticipates a misunderstanding about the law’s role, emphasizing that the law is not sin. Instead, the law reveals sin by defining it, such as the prohibition against coveting. Sin exploits the commandment to produce covetous desires. Without the law, sin is inactive, demonstrating the law's role in bringing awareness of sin.

Verses 14-15
Greek: Οἴδαμεν γὰρ ὅτι ὁ νόμος πνευματικός ἐστιν· ἐγὼ δὲ σάρκινός εἰμι, πεπραμένος ὑπὸ τὴν ἁμαρτίαν. Ὃ γὰρ κατεργάζομαι οὐ γινώσκω· οὐ γὰρ ὃ θέλω τοῦτο πράσσω, ἀλλ᾽ ὃ μισῶ τοῦτο ποιῶ.

Translation: For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.


Syntactic Force and Context: Paul contrasts the spiritual nature of the law with his own fleshly nature. He describes the inner conflict between his desire to do good and his actions, which contradict his intentions. This passage highlights the struggle of living under sin’s influence despite recognizing the law's righteousness.

Verses 21-24
Greek: Εὑρίσκω ἄρα τὸν νόμον, τῷ θέλοντι ἐμοὶ ποιεῖν τὸ καλόν, ὅτι ἐμοὶ τὸ κακὸν παράκειται· συνήδομαι γὰρ τῷ νόμῳ τοῦ Θεοῦ κατὰ τὸν ἔσω ἄνθρωπον· βλέπω δὲ ἕτερον νόμον ἐν τοῖς μέλεσίν μου ἀντιστρατευόμενον τῷ νόμῳ τοῦ νοός μου καὶ αἰχμαλωτίζοντά με ἐν τῷ νόμῳ τῆς ἁμαρτίας τῷ ὄντι ἐν τοῖς μέλεσίν μου. Ταλαίπωρος ἐγὼ ἄνθρωπος· τίς με ῥύσεται ἐκ τοῦ σώματος τοῦ θανάτου τούτου;

Translation: So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?


Syntactic Force and Context: Paul describes the internal conflict between his desire to obey God’s law and the law of sin at work in his body. He recognizes the spiritual delight in God’s law but laments the opposing force of sin that leads to captivity. The rhetorical question in verse 24 expresses his desperation for deliverance.

Hence--
Romans 7 addresses the believer's relationship to the law and the internal struggle with sin. Paul uses detailed arguments and personal experience to illustrate the transition from being bound by the law to living in the freedom provided by Christ. The chapter highlights the law’s role in revealing sin, the conflict between spiritual desires and fleshly inclinations, and the ultimate need for deliverance through Christ.

Paul frequently addresses the theme of not having fully attained spiritual perfection or final deliverance but continuing to strive toward it. This theme is present in various passages throughout his letters. Here are some key references:

1. Philippians 3:12-14
Text:
"Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus."

Explanation:
Paul explicitly states that he has not yet obtained full spiritual perfection ("already obtained this" or "already perfect") and describes his ongoing effort to pursue it. He emphasizes the continuous nature of this spiritual journey, focusing on the future and the ultimate prize of God's calling in Christ.

2. Romans 8:23-25
Text:
"And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience."

Explanation:
Paul speaks about the current state of believers who have the Spirit but still await the full redemption of their bodies. This passage reflects the "already but not yet" tension in Christian theology, where believers experience the initial aspects of salvation but await its final consummation.

3. 1 Corinthians 15:50-53
Text:
"I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality."

Explanation:
Paul explains the necessity of transformation for believers to inherit the kingdom of God, highlighting the future change that will occur at the resurrection. This underscores the expectation of final deliverance and transformation, indicating that the current state is incomplete and awaiting fulfillment.

4. 2 Corinthians 5:1-5
Text:
"For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee."

Explanation:
Paul uses the metaphor of a tent (temporary body) versus a building (eternal body) to describe the current state and future hope. He acknowledges the present groaning and longing for the heavenly body, indicating the ongoing expectation of final deliverance and transformation prepared by God.

5. 2 Timothy 4:6-8
Text:
"For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing."

Explanation:
As Paul reflects on his life nearing its end, he speaks of the future reward (the crown of righteousness) that awaits him. This indicates that while he has been faithful and completed his earthly mission, the full reward and final deliverance are still future, to be awarded by the Lord at the final judgment.

These passages collectively highlight Paul's understanding of the Christian life as a journey of ongoing transformation and hope for future completion and deliverance, emphasizing the tension between the present experience and future expectation.

Have you ceased from "striving" brother and 2-Do you hold to the Wesleyan doctrines?

J.

 

[Lizbeth]

@Johann

You are confusing the 'old man' or old nature with self and interpreting the Greek as 'self' mistakenly. The KJV does not do that.

Self is not the problem. It is in selfishness where we err. That is why self is to be denied not killed. We are told to:

Leviticus 19:18
Verse Concepts
You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.

Matthew 19:19
Verse Concepts
Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Matthew 22:39
Verse Concepts
The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

Mark 12:31
Verse Concepts
The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Luke 10:27
Verse Concepts
And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.”

Romans 13:9
Verse Concepts
For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Galatians 5:14
Verse Concepts
For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

James 2:8
Verse Concepts
If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.

Romans 13:8
Verse Concepts
Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

Matthew 5:43
Verse Concepts
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

Matthew 5:44
Verse Concepts
But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Luke 6:27
Verse Concepts
“But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

Luke 6:35
Verse Concepts
But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.

Matthew 5:46
Verse Concepts
For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

Luke 6:32
Verse Concepts
If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.

Deuteronomy 10:19
Verse Concepts
So show your love for the alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt.

Leviticus 19:34
Verse Concepts
The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the Lord your God.

Mark 12:33
Verse Concepts
and to love Him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as himself, is much more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

Source: 18 Bible verses about Love Your Neighbour

It is clear that we are to put others on the same level as ourselves and love them as we are commanded to love ourselves. Sinful man operating from the old man, loves himself first. This action of our nature is to be denied. And also our natural instincts where we are to obey the Spirit instead. Denial of self.

If self is to be killed, then there is no point in any of the verses quoted. We are to see our old man crucified with Christ or that life we lived, led from the flesh and selfish.

ok, think I hear what you're saying......and we need to be careful to understand these things to be allegories or a manner of speaking, rather than to be taken literally. How I think of it is that our old man is our old self and the new man is our new self. (All things become new, the old has passed away.) But not in a literal sense.....since we are "reckoning" these things. The idea I believe is to learn to live by the new spirit we received, the spirit of God/Christ, and no longer live by the old spirit, the devil, which resides in our fleshly carnal nature.

Paul uses some of this language here:

Gal 2:19-20

For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

But too much emphasis and repetition of what is meant to be allegorical can lead to a literal understanding though, which misses the mark, and can lead astray....and that is what we need to be careful of inadvertently doing.....that's what you may be "hearing" with this and getting a check in your spirit...? (It can happen with other concepts as well.) Maybe we could say this is even how pagan religions are off the mark, that you mentioned a while back...carnal literal understanding of concepts that are similar to some biblical concepts.

Hope I'm making sense...my brains feel like scrambled eggs these days and it sometimes feels as though I'm rambling.

 

[Lizbeth]

​

◄ 2 Corinthians 3 ►

​

New International Version Par ▾ 1Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? 2You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everyone. 3You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4Such confidence we have through Christ before God. 5Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. The Greater Glory of the New Covenant 7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! 12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate a the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

Amen. As long as we don't believe and assume the written word itself is a letter that kills. It's only a dead letter if we approach and use it that way, if we approach it apart from the Holy Spirit who gives life to it.

Our minds need renewing as well as our hearts....the scriptures help to renew our minds, with the help of the Helper (Holy Spirit)...they enlighten, instruct, correct, reprove etc.....lights the way for us......a lamp unto our feet and light unto our path. The entrance of the word gives light....and it can only enter us via the Holy Spirit.

 

[Lizbeth]

All Born Agains have been Born Of The Spirit exactly as Gods word says....we should not add to Gods written word it’s confusing.

We have been Born Again of imperishable seed that liveth and abideth forever.

Spirit gives birth to spirit...etc..all God’s word and very easy to understand in the spirit, if one is Born Again.

That is your opinion/ testimony and belief...and with respect your post makes no sense to my spirit.

Our spirit is Alive because we are in the righteousness of Christ, that can only happen if one is Born Again.

Proverbs 20:27 says “The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.” Whatever instruction, leading or guidance the Lord seeks to give you, He contacts your spirit. That’s who He deals with; not your physical body or outward man. When the Bible says “And thine ears shall a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left” (Isaiah 30:21), it isn’t talking about your natural senses, but your spirit.

​

◄ Romans 8 ►

​

Berean Standard Bible Par ▾ Walking by the Spirit (Ezekiel 36:16–38; Galatians 5:16–26) 1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.a2For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set youb free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.c He thus condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace,7because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the fleshd cannot please God. 9You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alivee because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the deadf will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you.

◄ John 4:24 ►

​

Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.” New Living Translation For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.” English Standard Version God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” Berean Standard Bible God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.” Berean Literal Bible God is Spirit, and it behooves those worshiping Him to worship in spirit and truth." King James Bible God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

It's absolutely true that we are born again of the Spirit, and I apologize if I'm confusing you Rita.

I will just try to mention an allegory in case it helps with this, but if it confuses you just ignore it.

We can say a loaf of bread is made from flour.....which is absolutely true. But at another time we can mention the yeast and oil that also goes into the making of that bread, and that is true too. It doesn't diminish or deny at all the truth that the bread is made from flour. Just that there are also other ingredients in addition to the flour that go into the making of that loaf.

 

[Behold]

No problem then-you have done what Paul couldn't do-you have "arrived"-no pun intended.

Paul did arrive.

Your verse is Paul speaking about not having "attained to the Resurrection".

A Bible (NT) will help you find that verse.. as its stated before the one you are twisting.

 

[Peterlag]

I notice you do not answer direct questions @Peterlag


Romans 7:7-25: The Struggle with Sin
Verses 7-8
Greek: Τί οὖν ἐροῦμεν; ὁ νόμος ἁμαρτία; Μὴ γένοιτο. ἀλλὰ τὴν ἁμαρτίαν οὐκ ἔγνων εἰ μὴ διὰ νόμου· τήν τε γὰρ ἐπιθυμίαν οὐκ ᾔδειν εἰ μὴ ὁ νόμος ἔλεγεν, Οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις. ἀφορμὴν δὲ λαβοῦσα ἡ ἁμαρτία διὰ τῆς ἐντολῆς κατειργάσατο ἐν ἐμοὶ πᾶσαν ἐπιθυμίαν· χωρὶς γὰρ νόμου ἁμαρτία νεκρά.

Translation: What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead.


Syntactic Force and Context: Paul anticipates a misunderstanding about the law’s role, emphasizing that the law is not sin. Instead, the law reveals sin by defining it, such as the prohibition against coveting. Sin exploits the commandment to produce covetous desires. Without the law, sin is inactive, demonstrating the law's role in bringing awareness of sin.

Verses 14-15
Greek: Οἴδαμεν γὰρ ὅτι ὁ νόμος πνευματικός ἐστιν· ἐγὼ δὲ σάρκινός εἰμι, πεπραμένος ὑπὸ τὴν ἁμαρτίαν. Ὃ γὰρ κατεργάζομαι οὐ γινώσκω· οὐ γὰρ ὃ θέλω τοῦτο πράσσω, ἀλλ᾽ ὃ μισῶ τοῦτο ποιῶ.

Translation: For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.


Syntactic Force and Context: Paul contrasts the spiritual nature of the law with his own fleshly nature. He describes the inner conflict between his desire to do good and his actions, which contradict his intentions. This passage highlights the struggle of living under sin’s influence despite recognizing the law's righteousness.

Verses 21-24
Greek: Εὑρίσκω ἄρα τὸν νόμον, τῷ θέλοντι ἐμοὶ ποιεῖν τὸ καλόν, ὅτι ἐμοὶ τὸ κακὸν παράκειται· συνήδομαι γὰρ τῷ νόμῳ τοῦ Θεοῦ κατὰ τὸν ἔσω ἄνθρωπον· βλέπω δὲ ἕτερον νόμον ἐν τοῖς μέλεσίν μου ἀντιστρατευόμενον τῷ νόμῳ τοῦ νοός μου καὶ αἰχμαλωτίζοντά με ἐν τῷ νόμῳ τῆς ἁμαρτίας τῷ ὄντι ἐν τοῖς μέλεσίν μου. Ταλαίπωρος ἐγὼ ἄνθρωπος· τίς με ῥύσεται ἐκ τοῦ σώματος τοῦ θανάτου τούτου;

Translation: So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?


Syntactic Force and Context: Paul describes the internal conflict between his desire to obey God’s law and the law of sin at work in his body. He recognizes the spiritual delight in God’s law but laments the opposing force of sin that leads to captivity. The rhetorical question in verse 24 expresses his desperation for deliverance.

Hence--
Romans 7 addresses the believer's relationship to the law and the internal struggle with sin. Paul uses detailed arguments and personal experience to illustrate the transition from being bound by the law to living in the freedom provided by Christ. The chapter highlights the law’s role in revealing sin, the conflict between spiritual desires and fleshly inclinations, and the ultimate need for deliverance through Christ.

Paul frequently addresses the theme of not having fully attained spiritual perfection or final deliverance but continuing to strive toward it. This theme is present in various passages throughout his letters. Here are some key references:

1. Philippians 3:12-14
Text:
"Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus."

Explanation:
Paul explicitly states that he has not yet obtained full spiritual perfection ("already obtained this" or "already perfect") and describes his ongoing effort to pursue it. He emphasizes the continuous nature of this spiritual journey, focusing on the future and the ultimate prize of God's calling in Christ.

2. Romans 8:23-25
Text:
"And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience."

Explanation:
Paul speaks about the current state of believers who have the Spirit but still await the full redemption of their bodies. This passage reflects the "already but not yet" tension in Christian theology, where believers experience the initial aspects of salvation but await its final consummation.

3. 1 Corinthians 15:50-53
Text:
"I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality."

Explanation:
Paul explains the necessity of transformation for believers to inherit the kingdom of God, highlighting the future change that will occur at the resurrection. This underscores the expectation of final deliverance and transformation, indicating that the current state is incomplete and awaiting fulfillment.

4. 2 Corinthians 5:1-5
Text:
"For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee."

Explanation:
Paul uses the metaphor of a tent (temporary body) versus a building (eternal body) to describe the current state and future hope. He acknowledges the present groaning and longing for the heavenly body, indicating the ongoing expectation of final deliverance and transformation prepared by God.

5. 2 Timothy 4:6-8
Text:
"For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing."

Explanation:
As Paul reflects on his life nearing its end, he speaks of the future reward (the crown of righteousness) that awaits him. This indicates that while he has been faithful and completed his earthly mission, the full reward and final deliverance are still future, to be awarded by the Lord at the final judgment.

These passages collectively highlight Paul's understanding of the Christian life as a journey of ongoing transformation and hope for future completion and deliverance, emphasizing the tension between the present experience and future expectation.

Have you ceased from "striving" brother and 2-Do you hold to the Wesleyan doctrines?

J.

I probably don't see the question is why I don't answer. As soon as I see you quoting Romans 7. Then I know what you believe and don't need to read any further since I then already know what you believe. You think Romans 7 is addressed to Christians and I do not. If you want an answer from me then you need to limit it to only one verse because I don't need to read a bunch of verses that I have already seen a large number of times from others who also believe Romans 7 is addressed to the Christian.

 

[Behold]

As soon as I see you quoting Romans 7. Then I know what you believe and don't need to read any further since I then already know what you believe. You think Romans 7 is addressed to Christians

Johann, has definite issues with Grace, and that is why He always tries to find some verse that talks about works, or effort or sin, or performance.
You find this also with Episkopos.


Romans 7.....Verse 6 = '"""""""But now we.. (the born again).. are delivered from the law,"""""

How..????

1.) "Christ is the END.. OF.. THE .. LAW, for RIGHTEOUSNESS = for everyone who BELIEVES"..

2.) The Born again are "NOT UNDER THE LAW....but under Grace""

 

[Johann]

Paul did arrive.

Your verse is Paul speaking about not having "attained to the Resurrection".

A Bible (NT) will help you find that verse.. as its stated before the one you are twisting.

The one twisting with a sleight of hand is you-

Paul frequently addresses the theme of not having fully attained spiritual perfection or final deliverance but continuing to strive toward it. This theme is present in various passages throughout his letters. Here are some key references:

1. Philippians 3:12-14
Text:
"Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus."

Explanation:
Paul explicitly states that he has not yet obtained full spiritual perfection ("already obtained this" or "already perfect") and describes his ongoing effort to pursue it. He emphasizes the continuous nature of this spiritual journey, focusing on the future and the ultimate prize of God's calling in Christ.

2. Romans 8:23-25
Text:
"And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience."

Explanation:
Paul speaks about the current state of believers who have the Spirit but still await the full redemption of their bodies. This passage reflects the "already but not yet" tension in Christian theology, where believers experience the initial aspects of salvation but await its final consummation.

3. 1 Corinthians 15:50-53
Text:
"I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality."

Explanation:
Paul explains the necessity of transformation for believers to inherit the kingdom of God, highlighting the future change that will occur at the resurrection. This underscores the expectation of final deliverance and transformation, indicating that the current state is incomplete and awaiting fulfillment.

4. 2 Corinthians 5:1-5
Text:
"For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee."

Explanation:
Paul uses the metaphor of a tent (temporary body) versus a building (eternal body) to describe the current state and future hope. He acknowledges the present groaning and longing for the heavenly body, indicating the ongoing expectation of final deliverance and transformation prepared by God.

5. 2 Timothy 4:6-8
Text:
"For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing."

Explanation:
As Paul reflects on his life nearing its end, he speaks of the future reward (the crown of righteousness) that awaits him. This indicates that while he has been faithful and completed his earthly mission, the full reward and final deliverance are still future, to be awarded by the Lord at the final judgment.

These passages collectively highlight Paul's understanding of the Christian life as a journey of ongoing transformation and hope for future completion and deliverance, emphasizing the tension between the present experience and future expectation.

Now, get lost.