01CobraVortech
New Member
Man so sad to see so many think that churches don't need money to do good and to keep up with their expenses. I continue my support of the tithe Brother Mike.
Are New Testament Believers Required To Tithe?
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The ones that don't tithe.............. Most of them at least. Think nothing of paying a bill, or doing something else with their money before they even give God a thought. Money is the big test to see what you really love first.
To see if you pass the money test. Go back and think what you did with your money first when you got paid. Did you ask God What His needs where, the church needs or did you just spend it on what you planed? If you just used it on yourself, then God is not first, but money is.
Years back, I did tithe, but God was not first.......................... I always just saved enough money to make sure I got my tenth in the offering plate. I still had other bills and things on my mind when I got that check. I never even checked in with God about it. I just spent it. When I changed that, the blessings started to happen.
Seek ye first the Kingdom!!!!! God's things first!!!
There are a handful that do support the Church and really do believe that tithe is not needed, but give generously. They are few and far between, but they are out there.
Jesus is Lord.
To see if you pass the money test. Go back and think what you did with your money first when you got paid. Did you ask God What His needs where, the church needs or did you just spend it on what you planed? If you just used it on yourself, then God is not first, but money is.
Years back, I did tithe, but God was not first.......................... I always just saved enough money to make sure I got my tenth in the offering plate. I still had other bills and things on my mind when I got that check. I never even checked in with God about it. I just spent it. When I changed that, the blessings started to happen.
Seek ye first the Kingdom!!!!! God's things first!!!
There are a handful that do support the Church and really do believe that tithe is not needed, but give generously. They are few and far between, but they are out there.
Jesus is Lord.
i completely disagree. The mosaic law was not always going to remain in force. It was prophecied in the OT that its end would come when the messiah appeared to take its place.
Jeremiah 31:31-34 “Look! There are days coming, . . . and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a NEW covenant; not one like the covenant that I concluded with their forefathers.”
The covenant with the forefathers spoken of here is the mosaic law covenant.
So when Jesus said that not one part of that law would go unfullfilled, it included the promise made of the introduction of a NEW covenant.....one that would not be like the mosaic law covenant made with their forefathers.
The removal of the mosaic law meant that the tithing system would also be done away with and there is scriptural evidence that the Apostles did not take money in the form of tithes from the congregations:
1Thessalonians 2:9 "Certainly YOU bear in mind, brothers, our labor and toil. It was with working night and day, so as not to put an expensive burden upon any one of YOU, that we preached the good news of God to YOU."
2 Thessalonians 3:7 "For YOU yourselves know the way YOU ought to imitate us, because we did not behave disorderly among YOU 8 nor did we eat food from anyone free. To the contrary, by labor and toil night and day we were working so as not to impose an expensive burden upon any one of YOU"
And the direction given to the congregation members was that they should 'donate' what ever they could afford to donate...there was no set amount that they had to pay anyone. They did make contributions for relief funds in behalf of the needy and at time they also gave material assistance to the apostles and elders but at no time do we read of a specific amount of income being set aside for such contributions.
1Corinthians 16:1 "Now concerning the collection that is for the holy ones, just as I gave orders to the congregations of Ga‧la′ti‧a, do that way also yourselves. 2 Every first day of the week let each of YOU at his own house SET SOMETHING ASIDE in store as he may be prospering,"
Acts 11:29 "So those of the disciples determined, each of them ACCORDING AS ANYONE COULD AFFORD IT, to send a relief ministration to the brothers dwelling in Ju‧de′a"
these verses show that tithing was not done among the christians, but voluntary contribution were.
Grat
New Member
Hmm, law versus freedom again.
Firstly, do your maths. The giving referred to under OT practice ended up being much more than 10% (I came up with somewhere over 30% last time I did the exercise). on top of this was a whole system to allow widows, orphans and “aliens” (for you in the US the closest for this would probably be your illegal immigrants) to live.
The only time I can think of when the giving was restricted to a straight 10% was Abram’s giving to Melchizidek. Please note in this only recorded incident, Abram gave to Melchizidek 10% of the captured spoils from a military campaign and gave the other 90% (less expenses for his people) back to the original owners. This is not a record of him “tithing” of his income.
Second, there ‘aint no temple. Nor is there (in Paul’s context when writing his letters) church buildings, very few if any “full-time” paid staff, no building funds, mortgages , missionary organisations, etc. There are no NT guides on giving except Pauls “give as you purpose in your heart”. Also, the purpose of this particular gift that Paul was taking about was a famine relief fund for the Church in Jerusalem.
There is also no limit on what God is owed. Whatever he asks of me is not only reasonable, but also for my benefit. I can only learn to trust Him by exercising my faith. God doesn't need me nor my money, but he does love to have me "help" him. Ask God what he would have of you – he always loves a chance to chat with his children.
Firstly, do your maths. The giving referred to under OT practice ended up being much more than 10% (I came up with somewhere over 30% last time I did the exercise). on top of this was a whole system to allow widows, orphans and “aliens” (for you in the US the closest for this would probably be your illegal immigrants) to live.
The only time I can think of when the giving was restricted to a straight 10% was Abram’s giving to Melchizidek. Please note in this only recorded incident, Abram gave to Melchizidek 10% of the captured spoils from a military campaign and gave the other 90% (less expenses for his people) back to the original owners. This is not a record of him “tithing” of his income.
Second, there ‘aint no temple. Nor is there (in Paul’s context when writing his letters) church buildings, very few if any “full-time” paid staff, no building funds, mortgages , missionary organisations, etc. There are no NT guides on giving except Pauls “give as you purpose in your heart”. Also, the purpose of this particular gift that Paul was taking about was a famine relief fund for the Church in Jerusalem.
There is also no limit on what God is owed. Whatever he asks of me is not only reasonable, but also for my benefit. I can only learn to trust Him by exercising my faith. God doesn't need me nor my money, but he does love to have me "help" him. Ask God what he would have of you – he always loves a chance to chat with his children.
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
I have found this discussion very interesting and would like to make a positive contribution. To do that I need to set some basics and then sort out the wheat from the chaff in what has been posted so far. I will respond to some comments without naming names.
The most important thing to remember is that tithing is not part of the OT or NT law. The law in the OT was the 10 commandments. There is no mention of tithing there.
Tithing under the OT was part of the ORDINANCES, which are referred to several times in the NT as two different things.
Through Christ salvation by works (OT) was replaced with salvation by grace (NT). However, Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." According to the Greek, that is the 10 commandments. He did not say, "if you love me, keep the OT ordinances." Keeping the 10 commandments is life giving, not bondage.
As NT believers, we have to make a decision as to whether we are going to live as an OT christian or a NT christian. We can't pick and choose which parts we will follow. Either it is salvation by grace under the new or salvation by works under the old. Tithing is under the old. It is not mentioned in the new.
The only time the word tithe was used in the NT was twice by Jesus and this is what he said. Matthew 23:23 "You're hopeless, you religion scholars and Pharisees! Frauds! You keep meticulous account books, tithing on every nickel and dime you get, but on the meat of God's Law, things like fairness and compassion and commitment--the absolute basics!--you carelessly take it or leave it. Careful bookkeeping is commendable, but the basics are required. "
The second mention was in Luke 11:42 and it was the same word. No one can say with any honesty that Jesus taught tithing to the church. The fact is he didn't and Paul didn't. I won't go into details of what he said as it has already been pointed out here.
My final observation is that one cannot use verses in the OT to impose regulations for the NT believers, unless you impose them all. If you don't you are being selective in what is applicable and who is to say what is to be imposed and what isn't. When you get into that sort of scenario you are getting back into OT ordinances, which have been nailed to the cross for the simple reason that the Jews were required to keep the ordinances to obtain right standing with God.
Common sense will tell you that the 10 commandments were not nailed to the cross as it would mean it is OK to murder.
The most important thing to remember is that tithing is not part of the OT or NT law. The law in the OT was the 10 commandments. There is no mention of tithing there.
Tithing under the OT was part of the ORDINANCES, which are referred to several times in the NT as two different things.
Through Christ salvation by works (OT) was replaced with salvation by grace (NT). However, Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." According to the Greek, that is the 10 commandments. He did not say, "if you love me, keep the OT ordinances." Keeping the 10 commandments is life giving, not bondage.
As NT believers, we have to make a decision as to whether we are going to live as an OT christian or a NT christian. We can't pick and choose which parts we will follow. Either it is salvation by grace under the new or salvation by works under the old. Tithing is under the old. It is not mentioned in the new.
The only time the word tithe was used in the NT was twice by Jesus and this is what he said. Matthew 23:23 "You're hopeless, you religion scholars and Pharisees! Frauds! You keep meticulous account books, tithing on every nickel and dime you get, but on the meat of God's Law, things like fairness and compassion and commitment--the absolute basics!--you carelessly take it or leave it. Careful bookkeeping is commendable, but the basics are required. "
The second mention was in Luke 11:42 and it was the same word. No one can say with any honesty that Jesus taught tithing to the church. The fact is he didn't and Paul didn't. I won't go into details of what he said as it has already been pointed out here.
My final observation is that one cannot use verses in the OT to impose regulations for the NT believers, unless you impose them all. If you don't you are being selective in what is applicable and who is to say what is to be imposed and what isn't. When you get into that sort of scenario you are getting back into OT ordinances, which have been nailed to the cross for the simple reason that the Jews were required to keep the ordinances to obtain right standing with God.
Common sense will tell you that the 10 commandments were not nailed to the cross as it would mean it is OK to murder.
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Now to deal with some comments already made.
This is like saying the NT never once says its wrong to go out and buy pornographic DVD's, so it's ok to do it.
NOTE: This comment is not relevant as pornographic DVDs were not available in the NT. Taken to its logical conclusion, we should not be driving around in cars. We should walk or ride horses or donkeys.
And he also details the blessings that will come to you the Christian if you are faithful in tithing.
NOTE: I can't find this anywhere in the NT.
I can see no reason why you shouldn't.
NOTE: Good scripture exegesis is not done on the basis of "I can't see no reason." It has to be based on the total revelation of scripture. The best commentary on the Bible is the Bible.
If you aren't going to tithe unless God specifically tells you to, then you have issues in your walk greater than whether or not you should tithe.
NOTE: This statement is unsustainable and judgmental.
No, you still go to heaven. But you will suffer the consequences of stealing from God in this life. First and foremost, this gives Satan the excuse and legal opportunity to bring about destruction to you and your household, be it in finances, health, protection, etc. God wants to protect us from the destroyer, but He can't do it if we are breaking His law. So it's not just about going to heaven, it's also about being blessed and happy in this life.
NOTE: What is spoken here is a curse which the writer has no authority to make.
Many might argue that this is not true and that God wants His tithe to sustain a church building. Besides, how else can we pay for such operations? But God is the same today, tommorrow and yesterday. He hasn't changed His mind about the purpose of His tithe; we gentiles have. So how do we, or should we, sustain a church building or ecclesiastical center?
NOTE: The NT church did not have to sustain a church building or ecclesiastical centre because they didn't have any.
Seems that it would be easier to put God first with just 10% under the old covenant practice than to be led by HolySpirit in the new covenant way of living.
NOTE: This is quite true as it requires no faith. Being led by the Holy Spirit does.
-- I completely agree. If it is from God, 10 percent goes back in honor and thanks.
NOTE: Giving God 10% is to my way of thinking rather miserly as everything we have is provided by him. My money goes into my bank account by direct credit and when God tells me to give some away I do.
Christ said to tithe from the heart not the law. God won’t love you any more or any less. But if you want to live life to the fullest, follow Christ’s example.
NOTE: We don't know what his example was as there are no incidents recorded where he gave money. What we do have is his teaching and that did not include tithing.
I suppose your Welcome Jiggyfly..........................Though I am pretty sure if Paul was not rushed that day, He would have added the tithe part in..........Remember he was always very busy
NOTE: This is pure speculation and is unsustainable theologically.
(In my mind it was the sin of fellowship with such a bunch of heartless, judgmental, self-righteous, pompous snobs.)
NOTE: Right on brother!!!!
To see if you pass the money test. Go back and think what you did with your money first when you got paid. Did you ask God What His needs where, the church needs or did you just spend it on what you planed? If you just used it on yourself, then God is not first, but money is.
NOTE: It is very sad when our relationship with the Lord is reduced to formulas.
these verses show that tithing was not done among the christians, but voluntary contribution were.
NOTE: Quite correct.
Second, there ‘aint no temple. Nor is there (in Paul’s context when writing his letters) church buildings, very few if any “full-time” paid staff, no building funds, mortgages , missionary organisations, etc. There are no NT guides on giving except Pauls “give as you purpose in your heart”. Also, the purpose of this particular gift that Paul was taking about was a famine relief fund for the Church in Jerusalem.
NOTE: A+
A christian who has the gift of teaching will cut through the cultural interpretations put on scripture by people who are more interested in tradition rather than the word of God and who usually just repeat what they have been told by their denomination.
I have seen enough and read enough to know that many church leaders have an investment in pushing tithing as it means that they will be guaranteed a salary every week. Without this they may have to exercise faith in God for their income, which is something they don't want to do.
The real negative behind all this is that they preach a gospel that will not demand too much and keep them coming back to put their money into the coffers. Research hss been done that shows 95% of most churches income is spent on themselves.
Now, can anyone show me in scripture where this is mandated??????
This is like saying the NT never once says its wrong to go out and buy pornographic DVD's, so it's ok to do it.
NOTE: This comment is not relevant as pornographic DVDs were not available in the NT. Taken to its logical conclusion, we should not be driving around in cars. We should walk or ride horses or donkeys.
And he also details the blessings that will come to you the Christian if you are faithful in tithing.
NOTE: I can't find this anywhere in the NT.
I can see no reason why you shouldn't.
NOTE: Good scripture exegesis is not done on the basis of "I can't see no reason." It has to be based on the total revelation of scripture. The best commentary on the Bible is the Bible.
If you aren't going to tithe unless God specifically tells you to, then you have issues in your walk greater than whether or not you should tithe.
NOTE: This statement is unsustainable and judgmental.
No, you still go to heaven. But you will suffer the consequences of stealing from God in this life. First and foremost, this gives Satan the excuse and legal opportunity to bring about destruction to you and your household, be it in finances, health, protection, etc. God wants to protect us from the destroyer, but He can't do it if we are breaking His law. So it's not just about going to heaven, it's also about being blessed and happy in this life.
NOTE: What is spoken here is a curse which the writer has no authority to make.
Many might argue that this is not true and that God wants His tithe to sustain a church building. Besides, how else can we pay for such operations? But God is the same today, tommorrow and yesterday. He hasn't changed His mind about the purpose of His tithe; we gentiles have. So how do we, or should we, sustain a church building or ecclesiastical center?
NOTE: The NT church did not have to sustain a church building or ecclesiastical centre because they didn't have any.
Seems that it would be easier to put God first with just 10% under the old covenant practice than to be led by HolySpirit in the new covenant way of living.
NOTE: This is quite true as it requires no faith. Being led by the Holy Spirit does.
-- I completely agree. If it is from God, 10 percent goes back in honor and thanks.
NOTE: Giving God 10% is to my way of thinking rather miserly as everything we have is provided by him. My money goes into my bank account by direct credit and when God tells me to give some away I do.
Christ said to tithe from the heart not the law. God won’t love you any more or any less. But if you want to live life to the fullest, follow Christ’s example.
NOTE: We don't know what his example was as there are no incidents recorded where he gave money. What we do have is his teaching and that did not include tithing.
I suppose your Welcome Jiggyfly..........................Though I am pretty sure if Paul was not rushed that day, He would have added the tithe part in..........Remember he was always very busy
NOTE: This is pure speculation and is unsustainable theologically.
(In my mind it was the sin of fellowship with such a bunch of heartless, judgmental, self-righteous, pompous snobs.)
NOTE: Right on brother!!!!
To see if you pass the money test. Go back and think what you did with your money first when you got paid. Did you ask God What His needs where, the church needs or did you just spend it on what you planed? If you just used it on yourself, then God is not first, but money is.
NOTE: It is very sad when our relationship with the Lord is reduced to formulas.
these verses show that tithing was not done among the christians, but voluntary contribution were.
NOTE: Quite correct.
Second, there ‘aint no temple. Nor is there (in Paul’s context when writing his letters) church buildings, very few if any “full-time” paid staff, no building funds, mortgages , missionary organisations, etc. There are no NT guides on giving except Pauls “give as you purpose in your heart”. Also, the purpose of this particular gift that Paul was taking about was a famine relief fund for the Church in Jerusalem.
NOTE: A+
A christian who has the gift of teaching will cut through the cultural interpretations put on scripture by people who are more interested in tradition rather than the word of God and who usually just repeat what they have been told by their denomination.
I have seen enough and read enough to know that many church leaders have an investment in pushing tithing as it means that they will be guaranteed a salary every week. Without this they may have to exercise faith in God for their income, which is something they don't want to do.
The real negative behind all this is that they preach a gospel that will not demand too much and keep them coming back to put their money into the coffers. Research hss been done that shows 95% of most churches income is spent on themselves.
Now, can anyone show me in scripture where this is mandated??????
Grat
New Member
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
I am not sure that you have adequate evidence for this claim which basically is made on a false premise invented by man.
I don't tithe to a church because there is no church to tithe to. We meet in homes without paid clergy so we have no expenses. That means all my giving is made to suffering saints in other countries, which has more scriptual authority than giving tithes to finance a building and someone's salary.
Generally speaking, tithes today are used to finance something you won't find in scripture, so it is difficult to make a case on that basis.
At the same time, if the scriptures give no clear teaching that we are to tithe (and it doesn't) and people understand this to be the case, they have as much right if not more than you not to tithe as you have to tithe on the basis of teaching that is not in scripture.
A close personal friend of mine was in the habit of putting his 10 percent into the hat, without an envelope or trace of who it came from, as it went around in the fellowship meetings on Sundays. He felt it was not the busines of the left hand to know what the right hand was doing. He also felt the matter between him and God, and keeping track of tithing for tax purposes at the end of the year was an Annanias and Sapphira kind of deal to him. No problem, though a bit idealistic in my thinking. It ended up a point of contention with the "leadership", since there was no record of his giving. He was marginalized for it. Great brother with lots of personal testimony to God's grace and workings, but because of money, was made into a pariah. Not long afterwards, as a rebel against those who maintain the tithe stipulation in order to advance in the group, I opted out of the program altogether on the basis of its falsehood outside of Israel. This resulted in the same treatment, and the prohibition to exercise any gifting or calling placed upon my spirit from God. Nuetered on the basis of money. It is sick and evil, this tithe business, and as you say, and invention of apostate Christianity, actually a pilferage from the "O.T." Jewish people, in order to supply the demands of carnal works of the flesh.
fivesense
THAT 10% would make quite a noticeable difference in the normal collection amount. easy enough to substanciate his claim. was tthat ever investigated or discounted?
That is a very good point to consider. I do not think that equitable treatment was on the minds of the overseers, for them to try and trace that. I believe that as the individuals who were being moved to act according to their faith were also exhibiting signs of advancement in spiritual growth beyond the control of the hierarchy, it was interpreted as a threat to the status quo and needed to be nipped in the bud. Consequently, the confrontation over tithing was the excuse to assign a negative checkmark to the persons, thereby cancelling their effectiveness, and making them subject to slander as well. When rumors and character abuse comes into play, the one who are artful at phariseeism and control use these weapons readily. It takes a great man or woman to stand up to conflict with determination to find resolution instead of dissolution.
fivesense.
the jews supported peters ministry and the gentiles supported pauls what ministry are you supporting? gods word or self.swordweather you believe in titheing or not jesus even render dues unto ceasar.
when i attended church regularly, i was held back being a non-tith payer
Grat
New Member
Actually, technically, we don’t have any reference to Jesus himself giving anything except one instance where he seemed to be saving peter’s face and had him catch a fish and using the coin in its mouth to pay both His and Peter’s temple tax.the jews supported peters ministry and the gentiles supported pauls what ministry are you supporting? gods word or self.sword
Grat
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Common practice of many churches. In other words it is not Jesus building HIS church, it is man building HIS church.
how did all of you hear the word of jesus? by a group of people supported by tithes and offerings? or did jesus appear on your journey to work and blind you? if you lay a bible on a table it will never do nothing. but if you support someone to carry it to the nations it will change lives. 1 life is worth more than all the riches of man. ;) unless you are going to the nations yourself try and support someone that is.
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how did all of you hear the word of jesus? by a group of people supported by tithes and offerings? or did jesus appear on your journey to work and blind you? if you lay a bible on a table it will never do nothing. but if you support someone to carry it to the nations it will change lives. 1 life is worth more than all the riches of man. ;) unless you are going to the nations yourself try and support someone that is.
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Very good point Greg. For myself, I owe it to the Gideons, and their planting little green books in every Viet Nam-bound soldiers' "care package" they received on arrival to duty. Having nothing good to read when I got there, I read the "New Testament", realized who I was and Who He was, and swore allegience to Christ. It is through the exposure to the gospels that the elect are called out unto God. Thanks for bringing me to remembrance that great day, thirty-nine years ago, and your recommendation to be mindful of who should be honored in the work we have to do.
fivesense
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