Apparitions of the Virgin Mary

[Marymog]

Neither. It is the spirit.



Scripture teaches to pray in the Spirit and FOR saints...

NOT, praying in the Body or praying in the Soul, or praying TO saints.

Eph 6:18
[18] Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for "all saints;"


Glory to God,
Taken

You say potato I say potaaato. You say Spirit I say soul. We are saying the same thing.

 

[Marymog]

Can you give ONE Biblical verse, instruction, directive FOR (souls ON Earth, in a living Body,) to Pray TO Saved souls in Heaven?

Glory to God,
Taken

My contention is that your spirit, which is here on earth and stained with sins, can pray for me just as much as a spirit that is in heaven that is not stained with sins.

You are suggesting that our spirits are confined to one or the other; earth OR heaven only. Can you give ONE Biblical verse to back up that theory?

Mary

 

[marks]

My contention is that your spirit, which is here on earth and stained with sins, can pray for me just as much as a spirit that is in heaven that is not stained with sins.

You are suggesting that our spirits are confined to one or the other; earth OR heaven only. Can you give ONE Biblical verse to back up that theory?

Mary

Hi Mary,

Still thinking about all of this . . .

Of course Ephesians 2 tells us God has raised us up with Christ, and seated us together in the heavenlies, Colossian 3, we are hid with Christ in God, I find ample reason to think in the heavenly realm, we are all together.

But even so, you say, our spirit on earth stained with sins, I'm still thinking that we are justified in Christ, removing that stain.

Much love!

 

[Illuminator]

Anti-Catholic...LOL.

What is the point of saying that?
You think that puts a Catholic EQUAL with Christ?
Anyone with a lick of Scriptural knowledge KNOWS, it is The Anti-Christ, the father of Lies, is the One men need to be Concerned with.

You should pay attention to WHO is Preaching LIES are Truths.

You should pay attention to WHO is Teaching Lies of the Anti-Christ!


Catholic Teaching- Mary was SINLESS.
Lie.
(Rom 3:23)

Catholic Teaching- Mary rose to Heaven Bodily.
Lie.
(John 3:13)

Catholic Teaching- pope is the "Holy Father".
Lie.
(John 17:11)

Catholic Teaching- Mary is the mother of God.
Lie.
(Heb 7:3)

Catholic Teaching- Mary is a man's intercessory to God.
Lie.
(Rom 8:34)

Catholic Teaching- Peter IS the Rock.
Lie
(1 Cor 10:4)

And the List goes on and on, One Lie, Perpetuating and Building, Teaching and Doctrines of Lie upon Lie!

Make no mistake.
Perpetuate no lies.

I am Against the Anti-Christ!
And I Disagree with Catholic Teaching that which Devises and Perpetuates Anti-Christ Teaching of Lies!

Taken

TRANSLATION:
"I can't refute post #431 because it requires too much reading and thinking, I can't refute post #428, 430, 434, 437 so I'll carpet bomb the thread (shot gun tactic) with a list of off topic subjects just to derail the thread and be insulting. I'll defend kcnalp's baseless attacks with a list of irrelevant flaming zingers because his attacks haven't a scriptural leg to stand on.

I don't care if anyone rejects the 2000 year old biblical/traditional doctrine of the Communion of Saints, STOP ATTACKING IT WITH MAN MADE TRADITIONS and I'll go away.

 

[Marymog]

Hi Mary,

Still thinking about all of this . . .

Of course Ephesians 2 tells us God has raised us up with Christ, and seated us together in the heavenlies, Colossian 3, we are hid with Christ in God, I find ample reason to think in the heavenly realm, we are all together.

But even so, you say, our spirit on earth stained with sins, I'm still thinking that we are justified in Christ, removing that stain.

Much love!

Hi Marks,
Thank you for you time.

What I understand you to be saying is that whenever we sin it is automatically removed by justification?

 

[Marymog]

Scripture teaches to pray in the Spirit and FOR saints...


Glory to God,
Taken

Hi taken,

Scripture teaches us a lot of things. Like the ministry of reconciliation.

Did you ever answer me on my question about the ministry of reconciliation? If so, I can't find your answer....

 

[marks]

Hi Marks,
Thank you for you time.

What I understand you to be saying is that whenever we sin it is automatically removed by justification?

That we are justified in Christ, and in His single act of obedience.

Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

I believe this passage can also be understood disobedience and obedience being ongoing, that is, the disobedience life of Adam, and the obedient life of Christ, but I think it's more Adam's first sin, and Jesus' death in obedience to the Father.

All sin is justified in this act, through our death and rebirth in Christ. Jesus died once for all, so all sin is removed in that one act.

Much love!

 

[kcnalp]

According to you, the rich man who prayed to Abraham Luke 16:19-31 is a Satanic trap because he didn't pray directly to God. You turn the biblical doctrine of hell on it's head by claiming the rich man who you claim is in hell, who can pray to Abraham and have compassion on his brothers. That's not hell. Your claim that he is in hell is not only heretical, it's plain stupid. It's a difficulty your man made system has never resolved.

"in torments"
"he cried"
"I am tormented in this flame"
"you are tormented"
"this place of torment"

Luke 16 The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

"though one rise from the dead"

Amen Moses!

According to you, Jesus, who prayed to Lazarus, (John 11:38-53)
who was dead, to rise, is a Satanic trap.

No, Jesus didn't pray to Lazarus.

John 11:41-42 (NKJV)
41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying. And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, "Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. 42 And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me."

According to you, Peter, who prayed to Tabitha, Acts 9:36-37, 40-41 who was dead, to rise, is a Satanic trap.

No Peter didn't "pray" to Tabitha. He COMMANDED her! Peter was praying to God.

Acts 9:40-41 (NKJV)
40 But Peter put them all out, and knelt down and prayed. And turning to the body he said, "Tabitha, arise." And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up. 41 Then he gave her his hand and lifted her up; and when he had called the saints and widows, he presented her alive.

According to you, Elijah, as recorded in 1 Kings 17:17-24 is a Satanic trap because he prayed for a dead person, who came back to life.

Praying for a dead person is not praying TO a dead person. And you just admitted he was DEAD.

1 Sam 28:12-15
12When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!" 13The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?" The woman said, "I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth." 14"What does he look like?" he asked. "An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. 15Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."
No, Saul legitimately called on Samuel in verse 15. That has nothing to do with his grave sin of consulting a medium. Your abuse of Scripture is Mickey Mouse eisegesis.

"God has departed from me"

Again you cite someone not of God, a loser. You are severely stretching the Truth!

 

[kcnalp]

According to you, the rich man who prayed to Abraham is a Satanic trap because he didn't pray directly to God. You turn the biblical doctrine of hell on it's head by claiming the rich man who you claim is in hell, who can pray to Abraham and have compassion on his brothers. That's not hell. Your claim that he is in hell is not only heretical, it's plain stupid. It's a difficulty your man made system has never resolved.

According to you, Jesus, who prayed to Lazarus to rise, Luke 16:19-31who was dead, is a Satanic trap.
According to you, Peter, who prayed to Tabitha, who was dead, to rise, is a Satanic trap.
According to you, Elijah, as recorded in 1 Kings 17:17-24 is a Satanic trap because he prayed for a dead person, who came back to life.

1 Sam 28:12-15
12When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!" 13The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?" The woman said, "I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth." 14"What does he look like?" he asked. "An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. 15Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."​

No, Saul legitimately called on Samuel in verse 15. That has nothing to do with his grave sin of consulting a medium. Your abuse of Scripture is Mickey Mouse eisegesis.

1 Sam. 12:23 – Samuel says that he would be sinning against God if he didn’t continue to intercede for the people of Israel.

1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the deceased prophet Samuel appears and converses with Saul, which is confirmed by Sirach 46:13,20).

1 Sam. 28:7; 1 Chron. 10:13-14 – Saul practiced necromancy. He used a medium, not God, to seek the dead and was therefore condemned. Saul’s practice is entirely at odds with the Catholic understanding of saintly mediation, where God is the source and channel of all communication, and who permits His children to participate in this power. Yet this simple biblical concept escapes anti-Catholics.

Your falsehoods have been exposed, you cannot overcome your own fabricated difficulties and with that you want to change the subject to purgatory, which you know nothing about, and criticize it with straw man fallacies. And you haven't refuted Martin Luther's quote (#431) with his own "Bible alone" approach which proves your SS is contradictory and self defeating.

You have failed to explain how it is possible to pray to raise a person from the dead without simultaneously praying for the dead (i.e., that same dead person), then I will insist henceforth that the practice of praying for the dead is explicitly taught and shown by literal example in both Testaments.
And if kcnalp is this bad of a Bible teacher in this instance, it sure casts doubt on his ability in other areas (purgatory) of his anti-Catholic and anti-biblical exegegis, too, doesn’t it?

Well, I hope you don't end up in Purgatory/Hell fire. There is no exit door.

 

[Enoch111]

Well, I hope you don't end up in Purgatory/Hell fire. There is no exit door.

That's where you are wrong. Indulgences are still available, and those are the exit doors from Purgatory. (Not that I believe in Purgatory, but for those who do, here is the escape hatch as found in their Catechism)

Plenary and Partial (1471)
Indulgences are closely linked to the sacrament. An indulgence is the remission of the temporal punishment due to already forgiven sin. This remission comes from the action of the Church, which dispenses from its spiritual treasury. A plenary indulgence removes all temporal punishment due to sin. A partial indulgence removes part of the temporal punishment.

Hell and Purgatory (1472-1473)
Sin has "a double consequence." Grave sin brings "eternal punishment" (depriving the person of heaven). All sins, even venial, must be purified either on earth or in purgatory. These two punishments come not from God's vengeance but from the very nature of sin. A conversion made because of fervent charity can remove all punishment due to sin.

Often, even after eternal punishment is removed by God's forgiveness, a temporal punishment remains. By patient acceptance of trials and by facing death serenely the Christian accepts temporal punishment as a grace. By acts of penance, the person strives to put off the "old man" and put on the "new man" (Eph 4:22-24).

The Church's Treasury (1474-1477)
The Christian is not alone in trying to purify himself. He is one with all other Christians in the single mystical person of Christ.

A perennial link exists between the saints in heaven, the saints in purgatory, and the saints on earth. There is a "wonderful exchange" whereby the holiness of one member profits everyone.

This is called the "Church's treasury", which has infinite value through Christ's merits gained by his redemption.

The treasury also includes the immense and unfathomable merits of the Blessed Virgin Mary and all the good works of those saints who have attained their own salvation and now cooperate in saving their brothers/sisters in Christ (The Doctrine of Indulgences - #5).

Opening the Church Treasury (1478-1479)
By the power of binding and loosing, the Church intervenes for individual Christians and opens her treasury so they can obtain the remission of temporal punishment due for sins. This should spur them to works of devotion.

We can obtain this remission of punishment also for the souls in purgatory.

Indulgences

 

[kcnalp]

That's where you are wrong. Indulgences are still available, and those are the exit doors from Purgatory. (Not that I believe in Purgatory, but for those who do, here is the escape hatch as found in their Catechism)

Plenary and Partial (1471)
Indulgences are closely linked to the sacrament. An indulgence is the remission of the temporal punishment due to already forgiven sin. This remission comes from the action of the Church, which dispenses from its spiritual treasury. A plenary indulgence removes all temporal punishment due to sin. A partial indulgence removes part of the temporal punishment.

Hell and Purgatory (1472-1473)
Sin has "a double consequence." Grave sin brings "eternal punishment" (depriving the person of heaven). All sins, even venial, must be purified either on earth or in purgatory. These two punishments come not from God's vengeance but from the very nature of sin. A conversion made because of fervent charity can remove all punishment due to sin.

Often, even after eternal punishment is removed by God's forgiveness, a temporal punishment remains. By patient acceptance of trials and by facing death serenely the Christian accepts temporal punishment as a grace. By acts of penance, the person strives to put off the "old man" and put on the "new man" (Eph 4:22-24).

The Church's Treasury (1474-1477)
The Christian is not alone in trying to purify himself. He is one with all other Christians in the single mystical person of Christ.

A perennial link exists between the saints in heaven, the saints in purgatory, and the saints on earth. There is a "wonderful exchange" whereby the holiness of one member profits everyone.

This is called the "Church's treasury", which has infinite value through Christ's merits gained by his redemption.

The treasury also includes the immense and unfathomable merits of the Blessed Virgin Mary and all the good works of those saints who have attained their own salvation and now cooperate in saving their brothers/sisters in Christ (The Doctrine of Indulgences - #5).

Opening the Church Treasury (1478-1479)
By the power of binding and loosing, the Church intervenes for individual Christians and opens her treasury so they can obtain the remission of temporal punishment due for sins. This should spur them to works of devotion.

We can obtain this remission of punishment also for the souls in purgatory.

Indulgences

No Bible?

 

[Enoch111]

No Bible?

Since Purgatory is not found in the Bible, why do you say "No Bible?". That's a given.

 

[kcnalp]

Since Purgatory is not found in the Bible, why do you say "No Bible?". That's a given.

I think we agree. lol

 

[Illuminator]

"in torments"
"he cried"
"I am tormented in this flame"
"you are tormented"
"this place of torment"

Luke 16 The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "
"though one rise from the dead"
Amen Moses!

Already addressed in post #434. Do you really believe that the image of a purifying fire (of God's love) (1 Corinthians 3:10-15) feels good??? Of course it's tormenting! Fire is a metaphor for the burning of God's love. It's not really a punishment as it is an inescapable consequence of our own "hay, wood and straw". It's not literal. There's no way around it. The rich man prayed to long dead Abraham or Jesus is teaching a heresy.

No, Jesus didn't pray to Lazarus.

John 11:41-42 (NKJV)

You conveniently left out verse John 11:42, the most dynamic verse in the whole chapter. Jesus is SHOUTING to a dead person while you insist talking to dead people is not in scripture. Your definition of "pray to" is selectively narrow, expanding on one element at the expense of numerous implications (to ask, to supplicate, to petition) affirmed by any dictionary. Jesus gave a command to a dead person. That's the point your are trying to wiggle out from. Whether or not Jesus "prayed" come forth or commanded it amounts to semantics. He is talking to a dead person and you insist such a thing is not in Scripture.

No Peter didn't "pray" to Tabitha. He COMMANDED her! Peter was praying to God.

Acts 9:40-41
Praying for a dead person is not praying TO a dead person. And you just admitted he was DEAD.

Already addressed in post #430. quote: "...Until someone can explain to me how it is possible to pray to raise a person from the dead without simultaneously praying for the dead (i.e., that same dead person), then I will insist henceforth that the practice of praying for the dead is explicitly taught and shown by literal example in both Testaments.

"God has departed from me"

Again you cite someone not of God, a loser. You are severely stretching the Truth!

If I have stretched the truth in post #434, quote me or retract your false accusation.

 

[kcnalp]

Already addressed in post #434. Do you really believe that the image of a purifying fire (of God's love) (1 Corinthians 3:10-15) feels good??? Of course it's tormenting! Fire is a metaphor for the burning of God's love. It's not really a punishment as it is an inescapable consequence of our own "hay, wood and straw". It's not literal. There's no way around it. The rich man prayed to long dead Abraham or Jesus is teaching a heresy.

You conveniently left out verse John 11:42, the most dynamic verse in the whole chapter. Jesus is SHOUTING to a dead person while you insist talking to dead people is not in scripture. Your definition of "pray to" is selectively narrow, expanding on one element at the expense of numerous implications (to ask, to supplicate, to petition) affirmed by any dictionary. Jesus gave a command to a dead person. That's the point your are trying to wiggle out from. Whether or not Jesus "prayed" come forth or commanded it amounts to semantics. He is talking to a dead person and you insist such a thing is not in Scripture.
Already addressed in post #430. quote: "...Until someone can explain to me how it is possible to pray to raise a person from the dead without simultaneously praying for the dead (i.e., that same dead person), then I will insist henceforth that the practice of praying for the dead is explicitly taught and shown by literal example in both Testaments.

If I have stretched the truth in post #434, quote me or retract your false accusation.

NONE of God's people in the Bible prayed to anyone who died!

 

[kcnalp]

Already addressed in post #434. Do you really believe that the image of a purifying fire (of God's love) (1 Corinthians 3:10-15) feels good??? Of course it's tormenting!

Yes, "forever and ever" as Jesus said!

Fire is a metaphor for the burning of God's love.

You would burn your loved ones in Hell fire "forever and ever" because you love them?

It's not really a punishment as it is an inescapable consequence of our own "hay, wood and straw". It's not literal. There's no way around it.

Not literal? Then why did the rich man CRY and be in TORMENT?

The rich man prayed to long dead Abraham or Jesus is teaching a heresy.

Again you cite a loser praying.

You conveniently left out verse John 11:42, the most dynamic verse in the whole chapter. Jesus is SHOUTING to a dead person while you insist talking to dead people is not in scripture.

Jesus COMMANDED Lazarus to LIVE again. Lazarus died. Jesus didn't PRAY to Lazarus. You really know how to STRETCH the Scriptures.

Your definition of "pray to" is selectively narrow, expanding on one element at the expense of numerous implications (to ask, to supplicate, to petition) affirmed by any dictionary. Jesus gave a command to a dead person. That's the point your are trying to wiggle out from.

Amen! You said it yourself! Jesus wasn't praying to a dead person!

Whether or not Jesus "prayed" come forth or commanded it amounts to semantics. He is talking to a dead person and you insist such a thing is not in Scripture.

Jesus never prayed to anyone who died no matter how you want to twist the Scriptures! He COMMANDED!

Already addressed in post #430. quote: "...Until someone can explain to me how it is possible to pray to raise a person from the dead without simultaneously praying for the dead (i.e., that same dead person), then I will insist henceforth that the practice of praying for the dead is explicitly taught and shown by literal example in both Testaments.

Where does anyone "pray for the dead", except the rich man burning in Hell fire?

If I have stretched the truth in post #434, quote me or retract your false accusation.

Just did! No Christian in the Bible nor Jesus prayed to someone who died! Do you have conversations with those who have died? Who??? You don't have a clue of the difference between praying to the dead and praying for the dead.

 

[Illuminator]

NONE of God's people in the Bible prayed to anyone who died!

An unqualified denial of the examples I gave repeatedly.

 

[Taken]

You say potato I say potaaato. You say Spirit I say soul. We are saying the same thing.

You think soul and spirit are the same thing?

 

[Illuminator]

Yes, "forever and ever" as Jesus said!

You would burn your loved ones in Hell fire "forever and ever" because you love them?

I am not the one who restricts the meaning of "pray to", that can be found in any dictionary. It's not hell fire for the rich man, and it's not hell fire in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. It's the same fire. What's left afterwards is pure gold. Logically, it's not a permanent state. Hell is a permanent state. Judaism, the roots of Christianity, never shared your illogical viewpoints.

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 – here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 – Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 – God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 – the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.
Purgatory - Scripture Catholic

Not literal? Then why did the rich man CRY and be in TORMENT?

Again you cite a loser praying.

Jesus COMMANDED Lazarus to LIVE again. Lazarus died. Jesus didn't PRAY to Lazarus. You really know how to STRETCH the Scriptures.

Amen! You said it yourself! Jesus wasn't praying to a dead person!

Jesus never prayed to anyone who died no matter how you want to twist the Scriptures! He COMMANDED!

Where does anyone "pray for the dead", except the rich man burning in Hell fire?
Just did! No Christian in the Bible nor Jesus prayed to someone who died! Do you have conversations with those who have died? Who??? You don't have a clue of the difference between praying to the dead and praying for the dead.

 

[Taken]

My contention is that your spirit, which is here on earth and stained with sins, can pray for me just as much as a spirit that is in heaven that is not stained with sins.

You are suggesting that our spirits are confined to one or the other; earth OR heaven only. Can you give ONE Biblical verse to back up that theory?

Mary

[QUOTEYou are suggesting that our spirits are confined to one or the other; earth OR heaven only. Can you give ONE Biblical verse to back up that theory?[/QUOTE]

I said no such thing.

Do you pray to saints in Heaven?