Apparitions of the Virgin Mary

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Prayer Warrior

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Christianity as a religion, as a denomination, as a church of one, as a belief system....tomatoes....tomotoes. Whatever floats your boat. The term Christianity was coined in Antioch, then Paul used that term and term saints. Saint Ignatius of Antioch first used the term "Catholic Church" (literally meaning universal church) in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans around 107 AD. From there the Church began to organize, after 325 ad The Catholics Church was solid. Other Religions of the time period? Gnostics...Coptics a few others that either faded out or did not amount to much. Hands down the Catholic Church is the oldest.

What “floats my boat” is KNOWING HIM! Like Paul said,

Phil 3:7-11--But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Jesus tore the veil in two; He tore down the fence! We CAN KNOW HIM!
 
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Yan

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Sounds like you are stuck in man-made “religion.” Jesus rent the veil that separated man from God, and NOW we can KNOW HIM! Christianity goes beyond “religion.”
I'd experiencing the same Holy Spirit between charismatic catholic and christian, its all the same. Why do you still lived as a carnal not as spiritual ?
What will benefit to you to claimed as more righteous spiritual but you lived in division among others ?
Many christian make division with catholic are not based on the biblical truth but based on political interest, and that is carnal.

1 Corinthians 3:1-8
1. And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, as unto babes in Christ.
2. I fed you with milk, not with meat; for ye were not yet able [to bear it]: nay, not even now are ye able;
3. for ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you jealousy and strife, are ye not carnal, and do ye not walk after the manner of men?
4. For when one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not men?
5. What then is Apollos? and what is Paul? Ministers through whom ye believed; and each as the Lord gave to him.
6. I planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7. So then neither is he that planteth anything, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: but each shall receive his own reward according to his own labor.
 

Prayer Warrior

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I'd experiencing the same Holy Spirit between charismatic catholic and christian, its all the same. Why do you still lived as a carnal not as spiritual ?
What will benefit to you to claimed as more righteous spiritual but you lived in division among others ?
Many christian make division with catholic are not based on the biblical truth but based on political interest, and that is carnal.

Hi, Yan, I'm not sure what you're asking me. I agree with you that it's the same Holy Spirit, and we are to be filled with and led by the Holy Spirit.
 

Philip James

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Jesus tore the veil in two; He tore down the fence! We CAN KNOW HIM!

Hello Prayer Warrior,

Yes we can know Him, and He us, intimately, in the reception of the Eucharist.

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!
 

kcnalp

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I don't know, the church didn't teach that. But you have a good question here.
I hope in this forum one of the catholic priest member can answer this good question.

Anyone ?
Maybe they do pray to Peter and Paul. Wouldn't surprise me.
 

Illuminator

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Maybe they do pray to Peter and Paul. Wouldn't surprise me.
"pray to" is simply shorthand for "asking Peter or Paul (or any saint in heaven) to take our prayers to the Father. God may or may not answer the prayers, not the interceding saint, not Peter, not Paul, and not Mary. "pray to" means invoking intercession, it does not mean worship. This is the doctrine of the Communion of Saints automatically understood by Catholics, supported by Scripture and was an authentic practice in the early church that no one denied until human opinion came along 15 centuries later. It is not understood by numerous objectors that dominate this thread.
21 pages and the doctrine of the Communion of Saints gets repeatedly supplanted by man made traditions. Biblical, historical and archeological evidence for the authentic practice is overwhelming and available for anyone who wishes to see it.

Those who refuse to objectively examine the evidence end up twisting the doctrine into something it never was in the first place.

Dialogue: “Why pray to a saint rather than to God?”

Inscriptions and art found in these ancient burial places shed light on how the first Christians lived their faith. Aside from the New Testament itself and some of the early letters of the Church Fathers, the catacombs are the oldest witness to the Christian faith.
Read more here: Rome’s Catacombs witness to the Catholic faith of the early Church
 
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kcnalp

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"pray to" is simply shorthand for "asking Peter or Paul (or any saint in heaven) to take our prayers to the Father. God may or may not answer the prayers, not the interceding saint, not Peter, not Paul, and not Mary. "pray to" means invoking intercession, it does not mean worship. This is the doctrine of the Communion of Saints automatically understood by Catholics, supported by Scripture and was an authentic practice in the early church that no one denied until human opinion came along 15 centuries later. It is not understood by numerous objectors that dominate this thread.
21 pages and the doctrine of the Communion of Saints gets repeatedly supplanted by man made traditions. Biblical, historical and archeological evidence for the authentic practice is overwhelming and available for anyone who wishes to see it.

Those who refuse to objectively examine the evidence end up twisting the doctrine into something it never was in the first place.

Dialogue: “Why pray to a saint rather than to God?”
You pray to dead humans? I pray to God. Where does the Bible support praying to dead people? It does not! That is Satanic!
 

Philip James

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You pray to dead humans?

Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live,

and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
 

kcnalp

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Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live,

and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
Guess you missed this.
"Where does the Bible support praying to dead people?"
 

Illuminator

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James White:
The only communication with spirit beings that originates with man that is allowed in Scripture is that of prayer to God and He alone. Prayer, it is asserted, is an act of worship, and we are to worship God only.
If it weren’t for White’s qualification in the italicized and bolded portion above, I could answer this with many many examples. But even with the qualification, Scripture (in the words of Jesus Himself) contradicts him in (at the very least) four ways.

The best disproof is in the story (not parable) of the rich man and Lazarus:

Luke 16:24

This is the Abraham of the Bible: long dead by that time, being asked to do something by a “rich man” (16:19, 22), His answer was, in effect, “no” (16:25-26). Thus failing in that request, he prays to him again for something else:

Luke 16:27-28

His request is again declined (16:29). So, like any good self-respecting Jew (Moses even “negotiated” with God), he argues with Abraham (16:30). But Abraham states again that his request is futile (16:31).

The passage also shows (in a fascinating way) that not only can dead saints hear our requests, they also have some measure of power to carry them out on their own. Abraham is asked to “send” a dead man to appear to the rich man's brothers, in order for them to avoid damnation (yet another [potential] instance of dead men — like the prophet Samuel to Saul — communicating to those on the earth). Abraham doesn’t deny that he is able to potentially send Lazarus to do such a thing; he only denies that it would work, or that it is necessary (by the logic of “if they don’t respond to greater factor x, nor will they to lesser factor y”).

Therefore, it is assumed in the story that Abraham could have possibly done so on his own. And this is all told, remember, by our Lord Jesus. It is disputed whether it is a parable or not (several textual factors suggest that it is not; e.g., parables do not use proper names), but even if it is, it nevertheless cannot contain things that are untrue, lest Jesus be guilty of leading people into heresy by means of false illustrations or analogies within His common teaching tool: the parable.

This expressly contradicts White’s statement in the following ways:

1) This is a communication with a spirit being (Abraham after death) originated by the rich man. White said that the only such communication sanctioned in the Bible is “to God and He alone.”

2) It’s a prayer and petition to Abraham, not God. According to Bishop White, the Bible teaches that prayer can only be directed towards God.

3) White claims that all prayer is “an act of worship.” Therefore, according to him, the rich man is worshiping Abraham: contrary to biblical teaching.

4) This means (in the White erroneous outlook) that Jesus doesn’t understand that “The only communication with spirit beings that originates with man that is allowed in Scripture is that of prayer to God and He alone”: since He told this story of an actual event, and sanctioned it in so doing.

5) Jesus (i.e., in White’s mentality and utilizing his false premises) also doesn’t understand that prayer and petitionary requests can only be directed towards God.

6) Jesus also doesn’t get it that prayer is always worship and that only God should be worshiped, since — following White’s flawed logic — He is teaching here that Abraham was worshiped.

7) It follows that Jesus is not omniscient and is a false teacher (not understanding the nature and limitations of prayer).

8) It also follows that He is a blasphemer and is guilty of idolatry.

9) #4-8 all amounts to a disproof that Jesus is God.

Are there any other biblical indications of “communication with spirit beings that originates with man” directed towards a dead person? Yes:

Acts 9:36-40

This shows two things (both absolutely anathema to White, @kcnalp and most Protestants):

1) St. Peter prayed for the dead (9:40).
2) St. Peter communicated to a dead person (9:40: “Tabitha, rise.”): expressly against what White claims Scripture never allows.

And of course, in this, Peter was only following the lead and example and command of His Lord Jesus, Who said that His disciples would raise the dead, just as He did. And when Jesus raised Lazarus, He, too, talked to a dead man: “Lazarus, come out” (John 11:43). And He did so again in the case of the son of the widow of Nain, whom He raised from the dead (Luke 7:11-15): “And he said, ‘Young man, I say to you, arise.'”

Therefore, Jesus is again exposed as a false teacher — giving now three bad examples of false theology and practice — , therefore, not God, etc., etc.

Since that can’t be the case, and since the Bible clearly contradicts White’s position here, we must conclude that he is gravely mistaken, and that the Bible and Jesus strongly affirm Catholic and Orthodox teaching in this regard. It’s always best to go with Jesus and the Bible. If someone like James White contradicts them, don’t listen to him. And if White is this bad of a Bible teacher in this instance, it sure casts doubt on his ability in other areas of his anti-Catholic and anti-biblical exegegis, too, doesn’t it?
Vs. James White #13: Jesus Taught Invocation of Saints
 
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kcnalp

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James White:
The only communication with spirit beings that originates with man that is allowed in Scripture is that of prayer to God and He alone. Prayer, it is asserted, is an act of worship, and we are to worship God only.
If it weren’t for White’s qualification in the italicized and bolded portion above, I could answer this with many many examples. But even with the qualification, Scripture (in the words of Jesus Himself) contradicts him in (at the very least) four ways.

The best disproof is in the story (not parable) of the rich man and Lazarus:
The rich man was in Hell fire. He was not one of God's people.
 

Illuminator

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The rich man was in Hell fire. He was not one of God's people.
So Jesus' parable was wrong? Those in Hell fire cannot pray to Abraham and those in Hell fire are incapable of showing compassion to their brothers, you say they are. Your eisegesis is as stupid as James White's.
 

Illuminator

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Lots of places but you can't quote any?
I posted the link at least 5 times that gives lots of quotes. I already gave other quotes and each time I give them, you come up with this stupid question. Why do you bother replying to posts your repeatedly ignore???