Apparitions of the Virgin Mary

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Illuminator

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redaction from post #417
"...since the Bible clearly contradicts kcnalp's position here, we must conclude that he is gravely mistaken, and that the Bible and Jesus strongly affirm Catholic and Orthodox teaching in this regard. It’s always best to go with Jesus and the Bible. If someone like kcnalp contradicts them, don’t listen to him. And if kcnalp is this bad of a Bible teacher in this instance, it sure casts doubt on his ability in other areas of his anti-Catholic and anti-biblical exegegis, too, doesn’t it?
Vs. James White #13: Jesus Taught Invocation of Saints
 

kcnalp

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So Jesus' parable was wrong? Those in Hell fire cannot pray to Abraham and those in Hell fire are incapable of showing compassion to their brothers, you say they are. Your eisegesis is as stupid as James White's.
You said it wasn't a parable.
"The best disproof is in the story (not parable) of the rich man and Lazarus:"

So your example for us to pray to people is a sinner in Hell fire?
 

kcnalp

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I posted the link at least 5 times that gives lots of quotes. I already gave other quotes and each time I give them, you come up with this stupid question. Why do you bother replying to posts your repeatedly ignore???
If you're too lazy to give quotes then that's your problem.
 

kcnalp

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redaction from post #417
"...since the Bible clearly contradicts kcnalp's position here, we must conclude that he is gravely mistaken, and that the Bible and Jesus strongly affirm Catholic and Orthodox teaching in this regard. It’s always best to go with Jesus and the Bible. If someone like kcnalp contradicts them, don’t listen to him. And if kcnalp is this bad of a Bible teacher in this instance, it sure casts doubt on his ability in other areas of his anti-Catholic and anti-biblical exegegis, too, doesn’t it?
Vs. James White #13: Jesus Taught Invocation of Saints
You cited a sinner in Hell as your example for us to pray to dead people.
 

2 Chr. 34:19

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Matt. 17:5
While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!”

Who did HE say we should pray to?

“When you pray, say;

Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name.
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done, on earth,
as it is in heaven.
Give us this day, our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us;
and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.
 
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Illuminator

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You cited a sinner in Hell as your example for us to pray to dead people.
No, I cited what Jesus said Luke 16:24 and many others (RSV) OVER FIVE TIMES and you say I am too lazy to give quotes.
Luke 16:24 (RSV) And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz’arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’

In your man made system, people in Hell fire can call out to Abraham.

Luke 16:27-28 (quoted directly and/or in links SEVERAL TIMES and you say I am too lazy to quote)And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father [KJV: “I pray thee therefore, father”], to send him to my father’s house, [28] for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’

In your man made system, people in Hell fire have compassion on those on earth. It's impossible. In both cases, what you assert is as absurd as it is heretical. The rich man cannot possibly be in hell, and we know he is not in heaven. So where is the rich man? It's a big problem you.
You pray to dead humans? I pray to God. Where does the Bible support praying to dead people? It does not! That is Satanic!
Yet it’s indisputable that Jesus indeed plainly teaches the very thing that you claim is Satanic!!! In His story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31), we find our compelling prooftext THAT YOUR ARROGANT MAN MADE SYSTEM CALLS SATANIC!!!

Protestant theology also generally teaches that we can’t talk to anyone who is dead, let alone make intercessory requests to them. Yet King Saul talked to the dead prophet Samuel (1 Sam 28:12-15), Moses and Elijah appeared at the Mount of Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-3), the “Two Witnesses” of Revelation 11:3-13 came back to life again (and talked to folks); so did those who rose after Jesus’ Resurrection (Matthew 27:50-53), etc.
Oh yes, again I quote verses you can't see.

One reply is to maintain that “this is only a parable” – therefore we are told that it doesn’t “prove” anything. Or a story. But many Bible commentators agree that it’s not a parable. Parables don’t use proper names: let alone that of a familiar historical figure like Abraham. They’re also prefaced by a statement (usually by the Bible writer, not Jesus) that the words following are to be considered a “parable.” Nor do I recall any other parables referring to Hades. They are in almost all instances quite “earthy” illustrations: often using agricultural and master / servant word pictures.

In fact, my contention would be even stronger if it is a parable, for in a non-parable, a person could do or say something theologically incorrect. But in a parable taught by an omniscient Jesus, Who is God, in an inspired, infallible revelation, falsehood could not be “enshrined.” What Jesus is teaching His hearers cannot contain theological error, and arguments by analogy (basically what the parables are) cannot contain false principles.

We conclude, then, that Jesus sanctioned “prayer to” dead men for requests. That is the traditional notion of “communion of saints.”

But even if we grant for the sake of argument that it is a parable, the difficulties for kcnalp, James White, and other Protestants are not overcome at all, since even parables cannot contain things that are theologically false, lest Jesus be guilty of leading people into heresy by means of untrue illustrations or analogies. kcnalp goes so far as to claim Jesus is teaching Satanism!
 

kcnalp

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No, I cited what Jesus said Luke 16:24 and many others (RSV) OVER FIVE TIMES and you say I am too lazy to give quotes.
Luke 16:24 (RSV) And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz’arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’
Again! You are using a sinner in Hell to prove we should pray to men. Deny it all you like.
In your man made system, people in Hell fire can call out to Abraham.

Luke 16:27-28 (quoted directly and/or in links SEVERAL TIMES and you say I am too lazy to quote)And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father [KJV: “I pray thee therefore, father”], to send him to my father’s house, [28] for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’

In your man made system, people in Hell fire have compassion on those on earth. It's impossible. In both cases, what you assert is as absurd as it is heretical. The rich man cannot possibly be in hell, and we know he is not in heaven. So where is the rich man? It's a big problem you.
Yet it’s indisputable that Jesus indeed plainly teaches the very thing that you claim is Satanic!!! In His story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31), we find our compelling prooftext THAT YOUR ARROGANT MAN MADE SYSTEM CALLS SATANIC!!!

Man made system? What would that be, Bible believing Christianity?
Protestant theology also generally teaches that we can’t talk to anyone who is dead, let alone make intercessory requests to them. Yet King Saul talked to the dead prophet Samuel (1 Sam 28:12-15), Moses and Elijah appeared at the Mount of Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-3), the “Two Witnesses” of Revelation 11:3-13 came back to life again (and talked to folks); so did those who rose after Jesus’ Resurrection (Matthew 27:50-53), etc.

And God REJECTED King Saul! Again you cite a loser.
Oh yes, again I quote verses you can't see.

One reply is to maintain that “this is only a parable” – therefore we are told that it doesn’t “prove” anything. Or a story. But many Bible commentators agree that it’s not a parable. Parables don’t use proper names: let alone that of a familiar historical figure like Abraham. They’re also prefaced by a statement (usually by the Bible writer, not Jesus) that the words following are to be considered a “parable.” Nor do I recall any other parables referring to Hades. They are in almost all instances quite “earthy” illustrations: often using agricultural and master / servant word pictures.

In fact, my contention would be even stronger if it is a parable, for in a non-parable, a person could do or say something theologically incorrect. But in a parable taught by an omniscient Jesus, Who is God, in an inspired, infallible revelation, falsehood could not be “enshrined.” What Jesus is teaching His hearers cannot contain theological error, and arguments by analogy (basically what the parables are) cannot contain false principles.

We conclude, then, that Jesus sanctioned “prayer to” dead men for requests. That is the traditional notion of “communion of saints.”

But even if we grant for the sake of argument that it is a parable, the difficulties for kcnalp, James White, and other Protestants are not overcome at all, since even parables cannot contain things that are theologically false, lest Jesus be guilty of leading people into heresy by means of untrue illustrations or analogies. kcnalp goes so far as to claim Jesus is teaching Satanism!
No, Jesus isn't teaching Satanism. He didn't tell us to pray to dead men.
 

Illuminator

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Acts 9:36-37, 40-41 (RSV): “Now there was at Joppa a disciple named Tabitha, which means Dorcas . . . 37 In those days she fell sick and died . . . 40 But Peter . . . knelt down and prayed; then turning to the body he said, ‘Tabitha, rise.’ And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up. 41 And he gave her his hand and lifted her up. Then calling the saints and widows he presented her alive.”

I readily grant that the example is unusual, because of the uniqueness of praying to raise someone from the dead (as distinguished from a prayer which aids someone in purgatory rather than bringing them back to the earth); also, I agree that the apostles had extraordinary powers of healing, so that this is not exactly a “normative” state of affairs (though even great miracles like these have been claimed through the years.

Nevertheless, it seems utterly indisputable that here St. Peter literally prayed for a dead person, as far as that goes. When the Bible tells us that he “prayed,” it was obviously for the purpose of bringing her back to life (and she was dead when he prayed it). It’s possible also that he might have prayed something like, “Lord, if it be your will to keep her, so be it; your will be done, but if she can be brought back to her grieving family . . . “ Either way, he is undeniably praying for a dead person, which Protestants say is not permitted, and supposedly not recorded in the Bible.

Furthermore, we have another familiar example of the same thing: Jesus praying for Lazarus, just before he was raised by the Lord: “Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. I knew that thou hearest me always, but I have said this on account of the people standing by, that they may believe that thou didst send me” (John 11:41-42). There is no recorded prayer at the raising of Jairus’ daughter (Mark 5:35-43).

Protestants would no doubt argue in reply that this was the Lord Jesus and an even more unique case, but we are commanded to imitate Him (including in prayer; e.g., the Lord’s Prayer), and it remains an example of prayer for the dead. The Bible informs us that the disciples raised people from the dead (Mt 11:5, Lk 7:22) and that Jesus told them that they would be able to, and should, do so (Mt 10:8). So they went out and did it, with (presumably) the use of prayer for that end. Thus, they prayed for the dead. We have an example of Peter doing just that.

John Calvin challenged Catholics concerning prayers for the dead: “I ask them, in turn, by what word of God, by what revelation, by what example, is this done?” (in McNeill, Institutes, III, 5, 10). I have just offered two examples recorded in two Bible passages.

If dead saints are not too far “out of reach” to be prayed for and raised from the dead back to earthly life, then I submit that they aren’t too distant for us to pray for their souls while in purgatory (assuming – as Catholics do on several biblical grounds – that there is such a thing). As Jesus would ask the Pharisees, “which of these two things is more difficult to do?” Matthew Henry (Protestant) comments:

"By prayer. In his healing Eneas there was an implied prayer, but in this greater work he addressed himself to God by solemn prayer, as Christ when he raised Lazarus; but Christ's prayer was with the authority of a Son, who quickens whom he will; Peter's with the submission of a servant, who is under direction, and therefore he knelt down and prayed."​

There we have it. It is inescapable logic:

1. Peter prayed for Tabitha and Jesus for Lazarus, that they be raised from the dead.

2. In order for such a prayer and miracle to occur, the person prayed for must be dead, by definition.

3. Therefore, Jesus and Peter both prayed for the dead, and such a thing is recorded in the Word of God.

Another biblical account of prayers for the dead: that of Elijah, as recorded in 1 Kings 17:17-24:

“Then he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried to the Lord, ‘O Lord my God, let this child’s soul come into him again.’ And the Lord hearkened to the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.” (17:21-22)

It is only fitting that Calvin’s query, “by what word of God, by what revelation, by what example, is this done?” should be answered by himself in another of his own works. We have only added the names of our Glorious Lord Jesus and St. Peter to the list of those who are shown praying for the dead in Holy Scripture, as confirmed by Protestant commentators, who (despite all) are convinced that no such thing exists in Scripture.

Until someone can explain to me how it is possible to pray to raise a person from the dead without simultaneously praying for the dead (i.e., that same dead person), then I will insist henceforth that the practice of praying for the dead is explicitly taught and shown by literal example in both Testaments.

Furthermore, these acts would probably not have occurred but for the prayers. God has power over life and death and is entirely sovereign, but He involves human beings and incorporates their prayers into His Providence. None of these people came back to life until they were prayed for.

Thus it is God’s will and an entirely scriptural practice to pray for the dead. If it were not God’s will for men to pray such things, He would not have honored the prayer and the person wouldn’t have been raised (1 John 5:14-15).
Therefore, to rule out this practice is impossible,
if we are to be true to the Bible.

Read more: https://www.catholicfidelity.com/apologetics-topics/communion-of-saints/prayers-for-the-dead-by-dave-armstrong/
 
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Illuminator

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"Satan is clever . . . Thus, even now, among us, he is quibbling over the worship of saints and what the saints are conscious of in heaven.

Thus, too, I would solve the question about adoring and invoking God dwelling in the saints. It is a matter of liberty, and it is not necessary either to do it or not to do it. To be sure, it is not so certain that God has His dwelling in many men as that He is present in the sacrament, but we do read in I Corinthians [footnote: 1 Cor 14:24-25] that an unbeliever will fall on his face and worship God in the saints, if he hears them prophesying; and Abraham saw three angels, and worshiped one Lord; and (to use your own illustration) what do we do when we “prefer one another in honor,” except honor and adore God in ourselves? Let it be free, then, to call upon God in man or out of man, in creatures or out of them, for “I fill heaven and earth,” saith the Lord. Here faith goes the safest way, for in all things it sees only God, but we cannot say enough of this to unbelievers, or prove it to them, because they are always worshiping themselves."
Martin Luther
(Letter to Paul Speratus, 13 June 1522)

If I am wrong in my defense of the Communion of Saints, I have nothing to lose. If you are wrong in your objections, you have much to lose.
Martin Luther invented sola scriptura (SS), or "Bible Alone Theology". That is a historical fact, not an opinion. He couldn't prove, by the Bible alone, that Tradition and the Magisterium were not necessary for sound teaching. The Bible as "the sole rule of faith" had immediate devastating effects, loathed by Luther, Calvin and other 'reformers'. In the light of the positive things the reformers stood for, the principle of SS could not work without the Catholic Church.

"...Bouyer, then, addresses both Protestants and Catholics. To the Protestants, he says, in effect, "It is fidelity to our Protestant principles, properly understood, that has led me into the Catholic Church." To the Catholics, he says, "Protestantism isn't as antithetical to the Catholic Faith as you suppose. It has positive principles, as well as negative ones.

Its positive principles, properly understood, belong to the Catholic Tradition, which we Catholics can see if we approach Protestantism with a bit of understanding and openness."


Bouyer's argument is that the Reformation's main principle was essentially Catholic: "Luther's basic intuition, on which Protestantism continuously draws for its abiding vitality, so far from being hard to reconcile with Catholic tradition, or inconsistent with the teaching of the Apostles, was a return to the clearest elements of their teaching, and in the most direct line of that tradition..."
...3. Sola Scriptura. Melanchthon, the colleague of Luther, called justification sola gratia, sola fide the "Material Principle" of the Reformation. But there was also the Formal Principle, the doctrine of sola Scriptura or what Bouyer calls the sovereign authority of Scripture. What of that?

Here, too, says Bouyer, the Reformation's core positive principle is correct. The Word of God, rather than a human word, must govern the life of the Christian and of the Church. And the Word of God is found in a unique and supreme form in the Bible, the inspired Word of God. The inspiration of the Bible means that God is the primary author of Scripture. Since we can say that about no other writing or formal expression of the Church's Faith, not even conciliar or papal definitions of faith, the Bible alone is the Word of God in this sense and therefore it possesses a unique authority.

Yet the supremacy of the Bible does not imply an opposition between it and the authority of the Church or Tradition, as certain negative principles adopted by the Reformers implied. Furthermore, the biblical spirituality of Protestantism, properly understood, is in keeping with the best traditions of Catholic spirituality, especially those of the Fathers and the great medieval theologians. Through Scripture, God speaks to us today, offering a living Word to guide our lives in Christ.

Thus, writes Bouyer, "the supreme authority of Scripture, taken in its positive sense, as gradually drawn out and systematized by Protestants themselves, far from setting the Church and Protestantism in opposition, should be the best possible warrant for their return to understanding and unity."

Where does this leave us? If the Reformation was right about sola gratia and sola Scriptura, its two key principles, how was it wrong? Bouyer holds that only the positive elements of these Reformation principles are correct.

Unfortunately, these principles were unnecessarily linked by the Reformers to certain negative elements, which the Catholic Church had to reject. Here we consider two of those elements: 1) the doctrine of extrinsic justification and the nature of justifying faith and
2) the authority of the Bible.

1. Extrinsic Justification. Regarding justification by grace alone, it was the doctrine of extrinsic justification and the rejection of the Catholic view of faith formed by charity as "saving faith." Bouyer writes...

2. Sola Scriptura vs. Church and Tradition.
Bouyer also sees a negative principle that the Reformation unnecessarily associated with sola Scriptura or the sovereignty of the Bible. Yes, the Bible alone is the Word of God in the sense that only the Bible is divinely inspired. And yes the Bible's authority is supreme in the sense that neither the Church nor the Church's Tradition "trumps" Scripture. But that doesn't mean that the Word of God in an authoritative form is found only in the Bible, for the Word of God can be communicated in a non-inspired, yet authoritative form as well. Nor does it mean that there can be no authoritative interpreter of the Bible (the Magisterium) or authoritative interpretation of biblical doctrine (Tradition). Repudiation of the Church's authority and Tradition simply doesn't follow from the premise of Scripture's supremacy as the inspired Word of God. Furthermore, the Tradition and authority of the Church are required to determine the canon of the Bible.

Luther and Calvin did not follow the Radical Reformation in rejecting any role for Church authority or Tradition altogether. But they radically truncated such a role. Furthermore, they provided no means by which the Church, as a community of believers, could determine when the Bible was being authentically interpreted or who within the community had the right to make such a determination for the community. In this way, they ultimately undercut the supremacy of the Bible, for they provided no means by which the supreme authority of the Bible could, in fact, be exercised in the Church as a whole. The Bible's authority extended only so far as the individual believer's interpretation of it allowed.

The Catholic Church and Reformation Principles

As we have seen, Bouyer argues for the Reformation's "positive principles" and against its "negative principles." But how did what was right from one point of view in the Reformation go so wrong from another point of view? Bouyer argues that the under the influence of decadent scholasticism, mainly Nominalism, the Reformers unnecessarily inserted the negative elements into their ideas along with the positive principles. "Brought up on these lines of thought, identified with them so closely they could not see beyond them," he writes, "the Reformers could only systematize their very valuable insights in a vitiated framework."

The irony is profound. The Reformation sought to recover "genuine Christianity" by hacking through what it regarded as the vast overgrowth of medieval theology. Yet to do so, the Reformers wielded swords forged in the fires of the worst of medieval theology: the decadent scholasticism of Nominalism.

Why Only Catholicism Can Make Protestantism Work: Louis Bouyer on the Reformation

The question is, "how can Luther's above quote be understood through the lens of his own ss principles???"
 
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Illuminator

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Purgatory is a Satanic trap. When you get there you find out it's eternal.
According to you, the rich man who prayed to Abraham Luke 16:19-31 is a Satanic trap because he didn't pray directly to God. You turn the biblical doctrine of hell on it's head by claiming the rich man who you claim is in hell, who can pray to Abraham and have compassion on his brothers. That's not hell. Your claim that he is in hell is not only heretical, it's plain stupid. It's a difficulty your man made system has never resolved.
According to you, Jesus, who prayed to Lazarus, (John 11:38-53)
who was dead, to rise, is a Satanic trap.
According to you, Peter, who prayed to Tabitha, Acts 9:36-37, 40-41 who was dead, to rise, is a Satanic trap.
According to you, Elijah, as recorded in 1 Kings 17:17-24 is a Satanic trap because he prayed for a dead person, who came back to life.

1 Sam 28:12-15
12When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!" 13The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?" The woman said, "I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth." 14"What does he look like?" he asked. "An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. 15Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."
And God REJECTED King Saul! Again you cite a loser.
No, Saul legitimately called on Samuel in verse 15. That has nothing to do with his grave sin of consulting a medium. Your abuse of Scripture is Mickey Mouse eisegesis.
mickey-mouse-reading-clipart-3.jpg

1 Sam. 12:23 – Samuel says that he would be sinning against God if he didn’t continue to intercede for the people of Israel.

1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the deceased prophet Samuel appears and converses with Saul, which is confirmed by Sirach 46:13,20).

1 Sam. 28:7; 1 Chron. 10:13-14 – Saul practiced necromancy. He used a medium, not God, to seek the dead and was therefore condemned. Saul’s practice is entirely at odds with the Catholic understanding of saintly mediation, where God is the source and channel of all communication, and who permits His children to participate in this power.
This you arrogantly deny is in Scripture, contrary to the biblical evidence presented.

Your falsehoods have been exposed, you cannot overcome your own fabricated difficulties and with that you want to change the subject to purgatory, which you know nothing about, and criticize it with straw man fallacies. And you haven't refuted Martin Luther's quote (#431) with his own "Bible alone" approach which proves your SS is contradictory and self defeating.

You have failed to explain how it is possible to pray to raise a person from the dead without simultaneously praying for the dead (i.e., that same dead person), then I will insist henceforth that the practice of praying for the dead is explicitly taught and shown by literal example in both Testaments.

(
And if kcnalp is this bad of a Bible teacher in this instance, it sure casts doubt on his ability in other areas (purgatory) of his anti-Catholic and anti-biblical exegegis, too, doesn’t it?)

I don't care if anyone rejects the 2000 year old Biblical/Traditional doctrine of the Communion of Saints, which is rooted in Judaism,
just stop attacking it with unbiblical arguments!
 
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2 Chr. 34:19

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According to you, the rich man who prayed to Abraham is a Satanic trap because he didn't pray directly to God.
Luke 16:19-31
According to you, Jesus, who prayed to Lazarus, who was dead, to rise, is a Satanic trap because He didn't pray directly to God.
According to you, Peter, who prayed to Tabitha, who was dead, to rise, is a Satanic trap because he didn't pray directly to God.
According to you, Elijah, as recorded in 1 Kings 17:17-24 is a Satanic trap because he prayed for a dead person, who came back to life.
You turn the biblical doctrine of hell on it's head by claiming the rich man who you claim is in hell, who can pray to Abraham and have compassion on his brothers. That's not hell. Your claim that he is in hell is not only heretical, it's plain stupid. It's a difficulty your man made system has never resolved.
1 Sam 28:12-15
12When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!" 13The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?" The woman said, "I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth." 14"What does he look like?" he asked. "An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. 15Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."
No, Saul legitimately called on Samuel in verse 15. That has nothing to do with his grave sin of consulting a medium. Your abuse of Scripture is Mickey Mouse eisegesis.

1 Sam. 12:23 – Samuel says that he would be sinning against God if he didn’t continue to intercede for the people of Israel.

1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the deceased prophet Samuel appears and converses with Saul, which is confirmed by Sirach 46:13,20).

1 Sam. 28:7; 1 Chron. 10:13-14 – Saul practiced necromancy. He used a medium, not God, to seek the dead and was therefore condemned. Saul’s practice is entirely at odds with the Catholic understanding of saintly mediation, where God is the source and channel of all communication, and who permits His children to participate in this power.
This you arrogantly deny is in Scripture, contrary to the biblical evidence presented.

Your falsehoods have been exposed, you cannot overcome your own fabricated difficulties and with that you want to change the subject to purgatory, which you know nothing about, and criticize it with straw man fallacies. And you haven't refuted Martin Luther's quote (#431) with his own "Bible alone" approach which proves your SS is contradictory and self defeating.

You have failed to explain how it is possible to pray to raise a person from the dead without simultaneously praying for the dead (i.e., that same dead person), then I will insist henceforth that the practice of praying for the dead is explicitly taught and shown by literal example in both Testaments.
And if kcnalp is this bad of a Bible teacher in this instance, it sure casts doubt on his ability in other areas (purgatory) of his anti-Catholic and anti-biblical exegegis, too, doesn’t it?
Read The Bible, for goodness sake. Stop letting the priest do it for you :(
 

Illuminator

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Purgatory is a Satanic trap. When you get there you find out it's eternal.
According to you, the rich man who prayed to Abraham is a Satanic trap because he didn't pray directly to God. You turn the biblical doctrine of hell on it's head by claiming the rich man who you claim is in hell, who can pray to Abraham and have compassion on his brothers. That's not hell. Your claim that he is in hell is not only heretical, it's plain stupid. It's a difficulty your man made system has never resolved.

According to you, Jesus, who prayed to Lazarus to rise, Luke 16:19-31who was dead, is a Satanic trap.
According to you, Peter, who prayed to Tabitha, who was dead, to rise, is a Satanic trap.
According to you, Elijah, as recorded in 1 Kings 17:17-24 is a Satanic trap because he prayed for a dead person, who came back to life.

1 Sam 28:12-15
12When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!" 13The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?" The woman said, "I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth." 14"What does he look like?" he asked. "An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. 15Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."​
No, Saul legitimately called on Samuel in verse 15. That has nothing to do with his grave sin of consulting a medium. Your abuse of Scripture is Mickey Mouse eisegesis.

1 Sam. 12:23 – Samuel says that he would be sinning against God if he didn’t continue to intercede for the people of Israel.

1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the deceased prophet Samuel appears and converses with Saul, which is confirmed by Sirach 46:13,20).

1 Sam. 28:7; 1 Chron. 10:13-14 – Saul practiced necromancy. He used a medium, not God, to seek the dead and was therefore condemned. Saul’s practice is entirely at odds with the Catholic understanding of saintly mediation, where God is the source and channel of all communication, and who permits His children to participate in this power. Yet this simple biblical concept escapes anti-Catholics.

Your falsehoods have been exposed, you cannot overcome your own fabricated difficulties and with that you want to change the subject to purgatory, which you know nothing about, and criticize it with straw man fallacies. And you haven't refuted Martin Luther's quote (#431) with his own "Bible alone" approach which proves your SS is contradictory and self defeating.

You have failed to explain how it is possible to pray to raise a person from the dead without simultaneously praying for the dead (i.e., that same dead person), then I will insist henceforth that the practice of praying for the dead is explicitly taught and shown by literal example in both Testaments.
And if kcnalp is this bad of a Bible teacher in this instance, it sure casts doubt on his ability in other areas (purgatory) of his anti-Catholic and anti-biblical exegegis, too, doesn’t it?
 
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Taken

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Illuminator- post # 21

Luke 1:28 [RSV]: “And he came to her and said, ‘Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!'”

[The RSVCE translates kecharitomene (“favored one” above) as “full of grace”]

Catholics believe that this verse is an indication of the sinlessness of Mary – itself the kernel of the more developed doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. But that is not apparent at first glance (especially if the verse is translated “highly favored” – which does not bring to mind sinlessness in present-day language).

One itty bitty problem.
Catholics are men. Catholic men have decided "highly favored" means "SINLESS"...

Gods Word of knowledge,
says no such thing!
Gods Word of Understanding,
says no such thing!

Who does Scripture say to Follow?
Jesus or Catholic men?

Matt 8
[22] But Jesus said unto him, Follow me;

Matt 9
[9] And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him.

Mark 10:
[21] Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Luke 18:
[22] Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

John 1:
[43] The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.

When ANY man is "Following Jesus"... when DID Jesus Ever Teach Mary was Sinnless?

When men are " following Catholic men"...
They get a Catholic man's fabrication!

Scripture calls that...

Rom 1:
[25] ... changed the truth of God into a lie...

Ugh!

Taken

 
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Taken

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redaction from post #417
"...since the Bible clearly contradicts kcnalp's position here, we must conclude that he is gravely mistaken, and that the Bible and Jesus strongly affirm Catholic and Orthodox teaching in this regard. It’s always best to go with Jesus and the Bible. If someone like kcnalp contradicts them, don’t listen to him. And if kcnalp is this bad of a Bible teacher in this instance, it sure casts doubt on his ability in other areas of his anti-Catholic and anti-biblical exegegis, too, doesn’t it?
Vs. James White #13: Jesus Taught Invocation of Saints

Anti-Catholic...LOL.

What is the point of saying that?
You think that puts a Catholic EQUAL with Christ?
Anyone with a lick of Scriptural knowledge KNOWS, it is The Anti-Christ, the father of Lies, is the One men need to be Concerned with.

You should pay attention to WHO is Preaching LIES are Truths.

You should pay attention to WHO is Teaching Lies of the Anti-Christ!


Catholic Teaching- Mary was SINLESS.
Lie.
(Rom 3:23)

Catholic Teaching- Mary rose to Heaven Bodily.
Lie.
(John 3:13)

Catholic Teaching- pope is the "Holy Father".
Lie.
(John 17:11)

Catholic Teaching- Mary is the mother of God.
Lie.
(Heb 7:3)

Catholic Teaching- Mary is a man's intercessory to God.
Lie.
(Rom 8:34)

Catholic Teaching- Peter IS the Rock.
Lie
(1 Cor 10:4)

And the List goes on and on, One Lie, Perpetuating and Building, Teaching and Doctrines of Lie upon Lie!

Make no mistake.
Perpetuate no lies.

I am Against the Anti-Christ!
And I Disagree with Catholic Teaching that which Devises and Perpetuates Anti-Christ Teaching of Lies!

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Marymog

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If you asked me to pray for you... pretty confidant you would recognize you are asking a Living Bodily person.
How do you, a living Bodily person, communicate with a Living Soul in Heaven?

Taken
True, I would be asking a living bodily person to pray for me. How does that bodily person then pray to God for me? Is it their body OR soul that prays to God? I believe it is the LIVING soul, not the living body. If a living soul that is stained with sin her on earth can pray for me why can't a living soul in heaven that is sinless NOT pray for me?

Mary
 

Taken

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True, I would be asking a living bodily person to pray for me. How does that bodily person then pray to God for me? Is it their body OR soul that prays to God?

Neither. It is the spirit.

I believe it is the LIVING soul, not the living body. If a living soul that is stained with sin her on earth can pray for me why can't a living soul in heaven that is sinless NOT pray for me?

Scripture teaches to pray in the Spirit and FOR saints...

NOT, praying in the Body or praying in the Soul, or praying TO saints.

Eph 6:18
[18] Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for "all saints;"

Can you give ONE Biblical verse, instruction, directive FOR (souls ON Earth, in a living Body,) to Pray TO Saved souls in Heaven?

Glory to God,
Taken