Apostate Israel is Babylon- common sense.

[Timtofly]

Notice in verse 7 that Paul refers to the "remnant according to the election of grace" as "the election" and then in verse 28 said "as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes". So, he was only referring to the "remnant according to the election of grace" there. Surely, blind people like the Pharisees and scribes that Jesus rebuked in Matthew 23 were not "beloved for the father's sakes". Instead, they were "enemies" for the Gentiles' sakes because the Gentiles "have now obtained mercy through their unbelief".

You are cherry picking based on human reasoning. Just because humans act one way, does not change how God sees them. Even Jesus on the Cross forgave "them", while you still see "them" as condemned.

Paul was not splitting up his people into two groups. One you call believers, and the rest unbelievers. All of Israel was still beloved by God even if He had cut them off. That is clear here: verse 1 sets the topic of the chapter.

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid."

Israel was cut off and no longer natural branches. But the natural branches were enemies of the gospel. They were beloved. Now we see Israel put on hold. The remnant is not those redeemed while the entire Israel is blinded. The remnant is concerning those at the Second Coming, who are placed back as natural branches.

"For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?"

The receiving of them pertains to when Israel is restored as natural branches.

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes."

There will be many in Israel alive at the Second Coming who you call enemies in a lost condition, but God will change that condition and restore them, not as the church that comes by faith. These will be restored, because, even though they are wicked and enemies of God, God changes them, because He decided to change them back as natural branches.

That goes against your amil teaching that all of humanity will be instantly destroyed at the Second Coming. No! God will still choose to redeem some from all nations, including Israel, for His own glory and Sovereign Will as placing them in the Lamb's book of life even prior to creation, itself.

God redeeming people based solely on their good works flies directly in the face of the Gospel, which is not of works, lest any man should boast. But this redemption is God boasting His longsuffering and grace, despite one's belief system.

That is why Matthew 25:31-46 is not the general GWT Judgment you keep thinking and posting. This is the remnant of Israel changed into sheep, even though the majority will be tossed into the LOF. This is not a separation between believers and unbelievers. This is based on God's decision to call their works good, despite how they rejected the Gospel message of the church. That is what Paul is referring to, they are "enemies of the Gospel".

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So you believe all of israels enemies which came against Jerusalem In Christs first coming were all consumed as they stood upon their feet?

Is there any reason why anyone else should believe this was fulfilled in Christs first coming?


Zech 14

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.


Exactly what year were they all consumed?

I believe that is figurative language and is not related to the second coming of Christ. Do you not care if your interpretation of Zechariah 14 lines up with the rest of scripture? How does it line up with 2 Peter 3:10-12? How does it line up with 1 Thess 4:13-5:11 and 2 Thess 1:7-10? How does it line up with Matthew 24:35-39 and Luke 17:26-37? On and on it goes. Please explain why you are willing to interpret Zechariah 14 in such a way that contradicts many other scriptures which tell us that all saved people will be changed to have immortal bodies and all the unsaved will be destroyed when Christ returns?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are cherry picking based on human reasoning. Just because humans act one way, does not change how God sees them. Even Jesus on the Cross forgave "them", while you still see "them" as condemned.

Oh, look. It's Timtofly chiming in with his nonsense again. When did I say they were condemned? Never. So, where did you get that from? Your imagination. I have said many times that the ones who were blinded in that time later had a chance to repent and be saved. That is why in Romans 11:11-14 Paul said he hoped to help save some of his fellow countrymen (Israelites) who had been blinded. So, get a clue and stop misrepresenting my view.

 

[tailgator]

I believe that is figurative language and is not related to the second coming of Christ. Do you not care if your interpretation of Zechariah 14 lines up with the rest of scripture? How does it line up with 2 Peter 3:10-12? How does it line up with 1 Thess 4:13-5:11 and 2 Thess 1:7-10? How does it line up with Matthew 24:35-39 and Luke 17:26-37? On and on it goes. Please explain why you are willing to interpret Zechariah 14 in such a way that contradicts many other scriptures which tell us that all saved people will be changed to have immortal bodies and all the unsaved will be destroyed when Christ retu

People being consumed is not figurative.
It takes place at Christs second coming .Not the first.That is why you have no account of it ever taking place.


Mathew 13:41-42

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Zech 14

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

People being consumed is not figurative.
It takes place at Christs second coming .Not the first.That is why you have no account of it ever taking place.


Mathew 13:41-42

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Zech 14

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

You do know that Matthew 13:41-42 is describing the day of judgment, right? So, what exactly is your point here? That the day of judgment will occur when Christ returns? If so, I agree. That is portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46 as well.

 

[tailgator]

You do know that Matthew 13:41-42 is describing the day of judgment, right? So, what exactly is your point here? That the day of judgment will occur when Christ returns? If so, I agree. That is portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46 as well.

Yes it is. The day of the Lord as Zechariah 14 says.All those things zech 14 says that's place at Christs second coming

Zech 14
9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

Revelation 11
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

 

[Timtofly]

Futurists repeatedly relate OT prophecies related to the first coming of Christ to His second coming instead and it's sad to see. They don't allow the NT to shine light on the OT prophecies for them, so they are completely ignorant of what the NT teaches.

Which NT passage clearly shows Zechariah 14 has been fulfilled?

 

[Timtofly]

Oh, look. It's Timtofly chiming in with his nonsense again. When did I say they were condemned? Never. So, where did you get that from? Your imagination. I have said many times that the ones who were blinded in that time later had a chance to repent and be saved. That is why in Romans 11:11-14 Paul said he hoped to help save some of his fellow countrymen (Israelites) who had been blinded. So, get a clue and stop misrepresenting my view.

You have no clue, as that blindness in part is still in affect until the Second Coming.

Lost people are not condemned? I figured everyone knew that and understood them that way?

Are you saved by your good works since you call yourself Israel?

I am not saying you are. Just curious, as Israel has always been judged by their works. Just seeing how far into this you are willing to go.

All of Israel was placed under blindness, not just "some of them". That blindness is why there is no difference between Israel and Gentile.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Which NT passage clearly shows Zechariah 14 has been fulfilled?

There are many NT passages which show that Zechariah 14 cannot possibly be fulfilled the way Premils typically interpret it, which is that they see it as indicating mortal survivors of Christ's second coming (contradicts Matthew 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 19:17-18) and as teaching that animal sacrifices and offerings will be reinstated (contradicting Hebrews 8-10) and nonsense like that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You have no clue, as that blindness in part is still in affect until the Second Coming.

Again, I didn't say otherwise. I agree with that and didn't say otherwise. There is something VERY wrong with you which causes you to misunderstanding everything you read. You AGAIN are misrepresenting my view.

Lost people are not condemned?

Where did I say that? Nowhere. God's wrath is on someone while they are lost. Read what I say instead of just coming up with things out of the blue in your imagination. But, the fact they are lost doesn't mean they can't repent and be saved before they die.

I figured everyone knew that and understood them that way?

What are you talking about? You need to take an English class.

Are you saved by your good works since you call yourself Israel?

No, I've never said that. Any other false accusations you'd like to make? You misunderstand seemingly EVERYTHING that you read. Please ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

I am not saying you are. Just curious, as Israel has always been judged by their works. Just seeing how far into this you are willing to go.

I don't equate Spiritual Israel with national Israel in any way.

All of Israel was placed under blindness, not just "some of them". That blindness is why there is no difference between Israel and Gentile.

This shows your lack of understanding scripture. Your doctrine comes ONLY from your imagination and not scripture. Have you never read this:

Romans 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”

Are you trying to tell me that the elect "remnant chosen by grace" who did obtain what they sought were blinded? That is insane! No, they were not! Only "the others" who "were hardened" and not "chosen by grace" were blinded.

 

[rwb]

Yes it is. The day of the Lord as Zechariah 14 says.All those things zech 14 says that's place at Christs second coming

Zech 14
9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

Revelation 11
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

Can you show Scripture to prove Zechariah 14 speak of things that come to pass after Christ's second coming? The prophets foretell of things that shall come to pass when the Day of the Lord shall come. Zechariah, like all the prophecies of Old MUST all be fulfilled within the time that began when the promised Messiah came to earth a man. And the prophecies shall be FINISHED when the seventh trumpet sounds that time shall be no longer.

 

[tailgator]

Can you show Scripture to prove Zechariah 14 speak of things that come to pass after Christ's second coming? The prophets foretell of things that shall come to pass when the Day of the Lord shall come. Zechariah, like all the prophecies of Old MUST all be fulfilled within the time that began when the promised Messiah came to earth a man. And the prophecies shall be FINISHED when the seventh trumpet sounds that time shall be no longer.

Ive asked for proof that anyone was consumed at Christs first coming.No one offered proof because there is none.

No one is consumed till Christs second coming.

Zech 14
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Mathew 13:41-42
The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Zech 14 has nothing to do with Jesus being born in a barn.It is about the coming the day of the Lord when Jesus enemies are consumed.

 

[rwb]

Ive asked for proof that anyone was consumed at Christs first coming.No one offered proof because there is none.

No one is consumed till Christs second coming.

Zech 14
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Mathew 13:41-42
The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Zech 14 has nothing to do with Jesus being born in a barn.It is about the coming the day of the Lord when Jesus enemies are consumed.

This is NOT an answer to my question, so let me ask you again. Can you show Scripture to prove Zechariah 14 speak of things that come to pass after Christ's second coming?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is NOT an answer to my question, so let me ask you again. Can you show Scripture to prove Zechariah 14 speak of things that come to pass after Christ's second coming?

He can't do it. He would rather make the rest of scripture fit with his interpretation of Zechariah 14 than admit that his interpretation of Zechariah 14 contradicts many other scripture passages.

 

[tailgator]

This is NOT an answer to my question, so let me ask you again. Can you show Scripture to prove Zechariah 14 speak of things that come to pass after Christ's second coming?

I already have posted proof .
The Lord starts his reign on earth after the seventh Trump.
Jerusalem has not been safely inhabited as in zech 14:11.That does not take place till after Christ had come and establishes his kingdom at the seventh Trump.




Zech 14
9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.



If you believe Jerusalem has been safely inhabited,then you haven't been paying attention.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I already have posted proof .
The Lord starts his reign on earth after the seventh Trump.
Jerusalem has not been safely inhabited as in zech 14:11.That does not take place till after Christ had come and establishes his kingdom at the seventh Trump.




Zech 14
9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.



If you believe Jerusalem has been safely inhabited,then you haven't been paying attention.

How does your interpretation of Zechariah 14 line up with this passage:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[rwb]

I already have posted proof .
The Lord starts his reign on earth after the seventh Trump.
Jerusalem has not been safely inhabited as in zech 14:11.That does not take place till after Christ had come and establishes his kingdom at the seventh Trump.




Zech 14
9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.



If you believe Jerusalem has been safely inhabited,then you haven't been paying attention.

What verses or passages of Scripture say the Lord's reign does not begin until after the seventh trump sounds?

 

[tailgator]

What verses or passages of Scripture say the Lord's reign does not begin until after the seventh trump sounds?

That is when the kingdom of the world becomes his.No more beast reigning in the world after the seventh trump.


Revelation 11
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

 

[tailgator]

What verses or passages of Scripture say the Lord's reign does not begin until after the seventh trump sounds?

Can you show me where people were consumed as they stood on their feet other than Hiroshima or Nagasaki?

Zech 14
And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.



The nations which come against Jerusalem on the day of the Lord suffer the same plague as the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in WW2.

 

[rwb]

That is when the kingdom of the world becomes his.No more beast reigning in the world after the seventh trump.


Revelation 11
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

When Christ ascended to heaven after His resurrection, "there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." (Dan 7:13-14)

The disciples of Christ were witnesses of Christ ascending up into heaven after He had been resurrected. Daniel shows us that when Christ ascended up to heaven. Denying that Christ is NOW, since His resurrection and ascension, reigning from the Kingdom of God in heaven, since these verses leave no doubt that indeed He is!

Acts 1:2 (KJV) Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Acts 1:9-11 (KJV) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Christ reigns NOW over His people from the Kingdom of God in heaven as the kingdom of darkness of this world fights against Christ Him and His saints in this world.