Apostasy:

[BLACK SHEEP]

Don't misconstrue what I said. I stated that you are Christian only because of what you believe. Nowhere did I say that you are saved. God is the only one to judge who is saved and who is not. According to the Bible, not everyone who believes are saved.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

You are the only one who believes that ONLY Christians are saved.

I have to wonder how many forums he was banned from before he got here. He likes to misconstrue what people say. His twisted way of debating really amounts to nothing good at all.

 

[musterion]

I don't think I misconstrued a thing. In fact, your last post clarified and reinforced my conclusion. Thanks again.

 

[Selene]

I don't think I misconstrued a thing. In fact, your last post clarified and reinforced my conclusion. Thanks again.

Yes you did. :)

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

Yes you did. :)

Yes he did with me too!
He implied that I said I wasn't a Christian, and that my screen name means I'm a self proclaimed prophet.
All we need on this forum is another one who is a waste of time in a debate!

 

[musterion]

Yes you did. :)

No, forgive my insisting on it. In my opinion, you have a very expansive view of what salvation means and of how one is saved, which seems fairly typical of many modern Catholics. I know you'd call it generous and gracious but I call it unbiblical and dangerous, but we need not discuss it further. It's just my opinion. And hey, if you're right, no problem. If I'm right...well, nevermind. Anyway, I really did enjoy talking to you.

Please do me one small favor, if you would: If KayoProphet is complaining about me - I choose not to view his postings so I can only guess - please ask him why a reasonable person would keep posting to someone [me] whom he repeatedly insulted and called a waste of time (actually I already know the answer to that, too; it's really just a rhetorical question). Also ask him which fruit of the Spirit his behavior exhibits because it appears to not be one listed by the apostle Paul. Thanks!!!

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

No, forgive my insisting on it. In my opinion, you have a very expansive view of what salvation means and of how one is saved, which seems fairly typical of many modern Catholics. I know you'd call it generous and gracious but I call it unbiblical and dangerous, but we need not discuss it further. It's just my opinion. And hey, if you're right, no problem. If I'm right...well, nevermind. Anyway, I really did enjoy talking to you.

Please do me one small favor, if you would: If KayoProphet is complaining about me - I choose not to view his postings so I can only guess - please ask him why a reasonable person would keep posting to someone [me] whom he repeatedly insulted and called a waste of time (actually I already know the answer to that, too; it's really just a rhetorical question). Also ask him which fruit of the Spirit his behavior exhibits because it appears to not be one listed by the apostle Paul. Thanks!!!

musterion,

I'll continue replying If I choose to. Be a big boy and open the reply! Grow up and don't put others in the middle of your problem with me. You questioned my Christianity and made a false accusation about me. That's when things started going downhill. I can tell you that I'll dump on you whatever you dump on me! Be nice to me and I'll be nice to you.
Get over it.
You put me on ignore after this post....makes me wonder!

Works are not required for salvation. They are the evidence of it. One person can say I believe and have faith and go home, get drunk, go out on his wife, and rob the local convenience store. His works are evidence that his faith in the Grace of God in Jesus Christ did not change his heart. If there's no change that means there's no being born again, and that means there was no regeneration and thus no salvation. Another can say I believe and act according to scripture with that belief. He goes home reads his bible and prays. He visits the sick, homeless, widows, and orphans. He goes to church, ask God to forgive his sins...in other words the works of the person whose faith is authentic shows a definite change in his life whereas one whose faith results into nothing is lost. Want parables?
That's why I said that Acts 16:30-31 isn't an exegesis of the doctrine of salvation. You take the word believe in Acts 16:30-31 and pretty much say that that's all there is to salvation.

 

[Selene]

Yes he did with me too!
He implied that I said I wasn't a Christian, and that my screen name means I'm a self proclaimed prophet.
All we need on this forum is another one who is a waste of time in a debate!

Yes, he actually misconstrued what I stated. Nowhere in my post did I ever mention that he was saved. He just assumed it.

musterion,

I'll continue replying If I choose to. Be a big boy and open the reply! Grow up and don't put others in the middle of your problem with me. You questioned my Christianity and made a false accusation about me. That's when things started going downhill. I can tell you that I'll dump on you whatever you dump on me! Be nice to me and I'll be nice to you.
Get over it.
You put me on ignore after this post....makes me wonder!

Works are not required for salvation. They are the evidence of it. One person can say I believe and have faith and go home, get drunk, go out on his wife, and rob the local convenience store. His works are evidence that his faith in the Grace of God in Jesus Christ did not change his heart. If there's no change that means there's no being born again, and that means there was no regeneration and thus no salvation. Another can say I believe and act according to scripture with that belief. He goes home reads his bible and prays. He visits the sick, homeless, widows, and orphans. He goes to church, ask God to forgive his sins...in other words the works of the person whose faith is authentic shows a definite change in his life whereas one whose faith results into nothing is lost. Want parables?
That's why I said that Acts 16:30-31 isn't an exegesis of the doctrine of salvation. You take the word believe in Acts 16:30-31 and pretty much say that that's all there is to salvation.

I agree. Faith and works go together hand in hand. The Holy Bible never teaches "faith alone". It takes much more than saying "I believe in God" to receive salvation. After all, even Satan believes in God, and he's not going to be in Heaven.

 

[jiggyfly]

I agree. Faith and works go together hand in hand. The Holy Bible never teaches "faith alone". It takes much more than saying "I believe in God" to receive salvation. After all, even Satan believes in God, and he's not going to be in Heaven.

Didn't you state in another thread that water baptism saves?

 

[Selene]

Didn't you state in another thread that water baptism saves?

Of course. Water baptism is the action. If a person truly has faith, he will show his faith in his action by getting himself baptized....just as Christ was baptized. The sons and daughters of God do not sit around as a couch potato saying "I believe in God" all day long to themselves. The sons and daughters of God take action because it is the Holy Spirit in them who empowers them to take action.

 

[jiggyfly]

Of course. Water baptism is the action. If a person truly has faith, he will show his faith in his action by getting himself baptized....just as Christ was baptized. The sons and daughters of God do not sit around as a couch potato saying "I believe in God" all day long to themselves. The sons and daughters of God take action because it is the Holy Spirit in them who empowers them to take action.

So you consider infant baptism to be the "much more than faith"?

 

[Selene]

So you consider infant baptism to be the "much more than faith"?

Where did you get that?? I've always said that faith and works go together hand in hand. The Holy Bible never teach "faith alone" or "good works alone." Both go together.

 

[jiggyfly]

In this thread you stated;

The Holy Bible never teaches "faith alone". It takes much more than saying "I believe in God" to receive salvation.

And in another thread you said;

When infants are baptized in water, they become buried with Christ in baptism. Rising from the waters, the Holy Spirit then descends upon the child and a voice in Heaven declares, "This is my son/daughter whom I am well pleased." The Child becomes a son/daughter of God and incorporated into the Body of Christ......God's family. One only needs to be baptized once to be part of God's family. To be baptized with BOTH water and spirit is the Christian baptism. Baptism has replaced circumcision. Baptism is the sign showing that we are God's children.

And here also;

According to the Scriptures I quoted, baptism can save. Why? Because baptism came from God. Do you believe that what comes from God can save a man? Do you believe that salvation comes from God? If you believe that salvation comes from God, then why is it difficult to believe that the things of God and from God can bring salvation?

So now we can see where I got that.

 

[Selene]

In this thread you stated;



And in another thread you said;


And here also;


So now we can see where I got that.

And this is why Christ said, "Those who believe (have faith) AND is baptized ( action) will be saved." Faith and works together. Faith without any works is dead.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works is dead, being alone.

 

[aspen]

God saves who He chooses to save, but that doesn't give us permission to refuse to follow the path He has laid out in His word. Salvation is not formulaic - saying some rote phrase like, 'I accept Jesus as my savior' or getting baptized and then counting yourself saved. All of the markers on the road to salvation are supposed to be points of heart change. If they are not, they are meaningless. If they do result in heart change, they are essential. Wearing glasses with the wrong prescription is not going to help you see better.....

 

[jiggyfly]

And this is why Christ said, "Those who believe (have faith) AND is baptized ( action) will be saved." Faith and works together. Faith without any works is dead.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works is dead, being alone.

But that's not what you said, you said that water baptism saves with no mention of faith or belief in Christ. Infants of course can be baptized or sprinkled but can they believe?

But in my experiences here I doubt you will recognize let alone admit to any conflict in your posts, but it is right there in black and white for all, so I'm dropping it. :)

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

Don't misconstrue what I said. I stated that you are Christian only because of what you believe. Nowhere did I say that you are saved. God is the only one to judge who is saved and who is not. According to the Bible, not everyone who believes are saved.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

You are the only one who believes that ONLY Christians are saved.

Selene,
I've read every post and reply between you and musty.

I've noticed that he's been quite persistent trying to get you to say something HE CAN MISCONSTRUE. As sincere as he sounds, I really don't like his approach nor do I like debating debating with him. It's like you constantly have to be on defense. I suspect that he's a Baptist fundamentalist and comes from their forum. Their the worse kind!
This guy is troubling to me. I've never seen anyone with those kind of tactics and that kind of character on a forum.

I want you to know that you've done a superb job of explaining salvation in simple terms on an apostasy thread.

God bless you in what you do...

 

[Dodo_David]

And this is why Christ said, "Those who believe (have faith) AND is baptized ( action) will be saved." Faith and works together. Faith without any works is dead.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works is dead, being alone.

Uh, I see that Selene has made a reference to the disputed verses that became added to Mark's Gospel.

In his commentary about Mark's Gospel, William Barclay writes the following:

There is a very interesting thing about Mark's gospel. In its original form it stops at Mark 16:8. We know that for two reasons. First, the verses that follow (Mark 16:9-20) are not in any of the great early manuscripts; only later and inferior manuscripts contain them. Second, the style of Greek is so different that they cannot have been written by the same person as wrote the rest of the gospel.*

As I and others have pointed out before, godly works are the product of saving faith. They are a sign of the salvation that has already taken place when people place their faith in Messiah Jesus alone.

Note:
* William Barclay, The Gospel of Mark (Westminster Press: 1975), p. 5.

 

[zhavoney]

And this is why Christ said, "Those who believe (have faith) AND is baptized ( action) will be saved." Faith and works together. Faith without any works is dead.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works is dead, being alone.

Amen Selene

I understand perfectly what you are saying.
You must do as Christ commanded and be baptized in His name. Because Christ laid His Life down for His friends.
John 15
13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

Mark 16
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

 

[mjrhealth]

Baptism can save no one, neither can works, your own that is. The works that is spoken of is that, which come from having faith in God, its not about what you do, but about what you let God do through you. They are not your works. If I walk down the road and help someone, it is my work, and is worth nothing, it is what is expected of me and earns me nothing, but if God says, " come lets Go and do this thing", than it is in faith that I go to do His works and He gets the glory not me, and it is our faith that saves us and is that what shows we love God, Jesus has already done the work, we just need the faith. Jesus already paid the price, IN FULL"how much are you going to add to the cost, can you do better than Him.....

In all His Love

 

[Dodo_David]

Baptism can save no one, neither can works, your own that is. The works that is spoken of is that, which come from having faith in God, its not about what you do, but about what you let God do through you. They are not your works. If I walk down the road and help someone, it is my work, and is worth nothing, it is what is expected of me and earns me nothing, but if God says, " come lets Go and do this thing", than it is in faith that I go to do His works and He gets the glory not me, and it is our faith that saves us and is that what shows we love God, Jesus has already done the work, we just need the faith. Jesus already paid the price, IN FULL"how much are you going to add to the cost, can you do better than Him.....

In all His Love

I agree.