Apostasy:

[This Vale Of Tears]

Why correct me on what you presume I think others believe, but you don't hesitate to tell me what I believe? Are you even able to see how you look when you do this?

Anyway...what specifically are the good works a lover of Christ (me) who refuses Rome (me) can do that will be acceptable to the Father for salvation? See, I'm going back to my earlier question you didn't answer: what must I - the guy you're speaking to - do to be saved, if I can still be saved even though I refuse every sacramental work your church says is necessary to salvation?

Once again, I await the simple specifics of a specific answer.

What you want is a simplified formula like many Protestants want; a neat little bow tied package that explains salvation in a nutshell. Scripture speaks at great length about the subject of salvation and by no means implies it's simple. If I were to offer you a simple phrase that sums it all up, it would be this: God decides.

The Bible says that it is appointed for men to live once and then comes the judgment. It says repeatedly that we will be judged by our deeds, whether they be good or evil. It says we must be baptized for the remission of sins, that we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling, that we are "scarcely saved", and that our works will be judged by fire. It says that narrow is the road that leads to life and broad the road that leads to destruction, that we are redeemed not by perishable things like gold and silver, but by the precious blood of Christ. Those who are bereft of charitable deeds Jesus will tell them, "I never knew you", and only those who "endure to the end" shall be saved. You really want a simple formula on an issue that was never meant to be simple?

Where I believe Protestants err is their posture. They believe that salvation is an event, can never be undone, and is not something that needs to be worked toward. What they call confidence I call arrogance. "Who has known the mind of the Lord?" scripture asks us, and yet Protestants believe that they can predetermine how God will judge and in believing so, they thrust themselves haphazardly into the mystery of God that escapes human understanding. There's no humility of understanding that we will one day stand before a holy God who considers even our righteousness as filthy garments and that the eternal fate of our souls is determined by his inscrutable judgment.

By now you're getting frustrated because you believe I'm not answering your question. It only seems this way because your question is continually based on a false premise, that Protestants cannot be saved because they're not Catholic. This is not the position of the Catholic Church, but you remain incorrigibly convinced that it is. So I cannot answer a question to your satisfaction that rises from a queer premise. What I can say is that I'm not unequal to you as a mortal who just needs to wait and see just like you do. When considering the dreaded day that we stand before the Judge of all men, we ought to be doing everything we can to prepare for that day, working out our salvation with fear and trembling. Do you say that works aren't necessary for salvation? If you had the proper fear of the Lord, you would be feverishly doing good deeds as if they were, as if you needed every possible merit in your favor to be considered when God judges your soul. This was once a proper fear that nearly all of Protestant America had and it's one that needs to be regained.

 

[musterion]

What you want is a simplified formula like many Protestants want; a neat little bow tied package that explains salvation in a nutshell. Scripture speaks at great length about the subject of salvation and by no means implies it's simple. If I were to offer you a simple phrase that sums it all up, it would be this: God decides.

Acts 16:30-31 refutes you. You are dismissed.

 

[jiggyfly]

1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
2 Cor 11:1-4 (KJV)

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

Acts 16:30-31 refutes you. You are dismissed.

What you are doing is typical of Christians. You're taking a passage of an actual event that Paul and Silas experienced when they were miraculously released from prison and calling it a universal truth. This was Paul prophesying to the prison keeper who was ready to kill himself because the doors of the prison were opened and Paul and Silas could escape. When Paul called for "a light," the prison keeper was astonished and fell trembling at Paul and Silas's feet. He brought them out of the prison and asked what he must do to be saved.

Paul prophesied that if he believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, he and his house would be saved. The prison keeper witnessed a miracle and accepted Christ. Then Paul, Silas, and the prison keeper went to the keepers house where his household also believed in Christ. This is an event and prophecy that can't be used as a universal truth about salvation. I know dozens of people who believe in Christ who are not saved.
One of the biggest lies of all time is "all you have to do is believe in Christ to be saved.."

Well the demons also believe...................AND TREMBLE!

 

[musterion]

What you are doing is typical of Christians.

Believing the Bible is typical of Christians.

I notice you drew a clear distinction between Christians and yourself. What are you, then?

EDIT: Oh, now I see. You're one of those self-appointed end-times prophet.

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

Believing the Bible is typical of Christians.

I notice you drew a clear distinction between Christians and yourself. What are you, then?

EDIT: Oh, now I see. You're one of those self-appointed end-times prophet.

Well first of all I can tell you have an axe to grind. Now you are questioning my salvation simply because I debunked your analogy of Acts 16: 30-31, and you're calling me a self-appointed prophet. In case you haven't noticed Kaotic profit is a nick. I'm the one who wrote the OP that "there are no more prophets or apostles."

Your sarcasm is about equal to your ignorance and intelligence.

 

[musterion]

1. I never questioned your salvation. I merely pointed out that YOU drew a distinction between Christians and yourself. Perhaps it was just careless phrasing on your part, but you've yet to explain it.

2. You debunked nothing. Paul told the man what he must do to be saved. The man did it. He was saved. Same goes for anyone today who comes to see his/her sin as God sees it. If you have issues with that, take it up with the Author. I only quoted Him.

3. Your website's name suggested to me you have set yourelf up as some kind of prophetic voice, as I'm unfamiliar with anything in the Bible referring to prophecies relating to black sheep (feel free to correct me on that). Your nick notwithstanding, it was thence I drew my conclusion; in fact, I did not even really notice that part of your nick until you just pointed it out. So if you aren ot presenting yourself as a prophet, I will apologize and retract my statement.

4. But if you're not, that raises two further questions: what/who is the black sheep? and what are the specific prophecies to which your website's name refers? I looked but did not see it explained anywhere therein, but perhaps I overlooked it.

Thank you in advance for your answers to the questions I've raised.

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

1. I never questioned your salvation.

You didn't? Talk about being in denial!!!

You said, "I notice you drew a clear distinction between Christians and yourself. What are you, then?"

I didn't make a distinction between Christian's and myself. YOU say that I did!

I made the distinction between Christian's who typically take a verse out of context as you did and call it a universal truth and myself! The distinction is that I'm not your typical Christian! Stop adding to and misquoting what I say.

1. I merely pointed out that YOU drew a distinction between Christians and yourself. Perhaps it was just careless phrasing on your part, but you've yet to explain it.

Perhaps your reply is a snide and careless assumption on your part and maybe you should stop injecting your rabid false notions about me and learn how to read and comprehend! The grammar I used didn't imply that I was not a Christian.

All I said was...

What you are doing is typical of Christians. (universalism)

Maybe going back to grammar school would help your grammatical shortcomings. You're just trying to make me look bad.

2. You debunked nothing. Paul told the man what he must do to be saved. The man did it. He was saved. Same goes for anyone today who comes to see his/her sin as God sees it. If you have issues with that, take it up with the Author. I only quoted Him.

And you quoted Luke out of context. Not every salvation scripture is complete and some of them are not universal truths like the one you're distorting. Paul prophesied to the prison keeper and then went to his house and "spake unto him the word of the Lord." It wasn't just a simple declaration of belief that led him to Christ. The prison keeper sought and inquired about salvation after he witnessed the earthquake, the rock being moved and the light. But it wasn't until after they went to the prison keepers house that Paul and Silas explained the plan of salvation or ("spake unto him the word of the Lord.") to him where both he and his house were saved.
So This Vales of Tears is right that the salvation doctrine isn't just as simple as "just believe."

Since the 70's I've heard many Christian's say,

"All you need to do to be saved is believe."

You are taking this entire issue in Acts 16:30-31 completely out of context.

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

This event is untypical of most salvation experiences. The passage isn't a doctrinal exegesis of salvation. According to your exegesis demons are also saved because they also believe and that makes no sense.

3. Your website's name suggested to me you have set yourself up as some kind of prophetic voice, as I'm unfamiliar with anything in the Bible referring to prophecies relating to black sheep (feel free to correct me on that). Your nick notwithstanding, it was thence I drew my conclusion; in fact, I did not even really notice that part of your nick until you just pointed it out. So if you aren't presenting yourself as a prophet, I will apologize and retract my statement.

Blacksheepprophecies is a name I came up with because I haven't fallen for the devils eschatology which many of you call Christian eschatology. I'm a black sheep because my eschatology isn't at all in accord with mainstream Christian eschatology.

Nowhere do I claim to be a prophet. I never have and never will. To prophesy is all different than to be a prophet.

4. But if you're not, that raises two further questions: what/who is the black sheep? and what are the specific prophecies to which your website's name refers? I looked but did not see it explained anywhere therein, but perhaps I overlooked it.

Looks to me like you overlook a lot of things.
The web site isn't nearly complete because I have a host of problems with fatcow and weebly the host and site builder. I have about 12 more pages to add but every time I go to "edit website" the text goes everywhere and I lose things. The apostasy page disappeared after I edited a portion of it. I'm having a lot of trouble with the site builder.
I'm a black sheep because...

I haven't fallen for false Christian teachings about apostasy, pre-tribulationism, a world dictator with one world government, a united one world religion, the revived Roman Empire, or a rebuilt temple.

 

[Selene]

I did read your response. The only thing I got out of it, besides a pointless dose of condescension, was the implication that salvation is by good works no matter what errors one may believe. This is why I asked for specifics because I know you cannot believe that.

So...specifically...if I plan to die adamantly refusing all things Catholic...what must I do to be saved?

As to universalism, I have in fact met many Catholics who are quite universalist. You may not be among them but I solemnly assure you, they exist.

The Catholic Church does not teach that all will be saved. It believes that there is a Hell. Universalism does not believe in Hell. It is possible for a non-Catholic to be saved through grace. Grace comes through faith and works. It does not come through faith "alone" as many Protestants believe. The Bible does not teach "faith alone."

 

[musterion]

Ooooooooooookay, K.P. Whatever you say. We'll just let it lay now. Bye.

The Bible does not teach "faith alone."

Yes it does, but let's leave that aside for a moment.

Serious question - please tell me precisely which works I would have to do to be saved, in addition to faith, if I reject the works (sacraments) prescibed by Rome? Again, a serious question. Vale wouldn't answer it so I hope you can.

 

[Selene]

Ooooooooooookay, K.P. Whatever you say. We'll just let it lay now. Bye.


Yes it does, but let's leave that aside for a moment.

Serious question - please tell me precisely which works I would have to do to be saved, in addition to faith, if I reject the works (sacraments) prescibed by Rome? Again, a serious question. Vale wouldn't answer it so I hope you can.

Faith and works go together hand in hand. Faith alone does not save you and good works alone does not save you. Grace saves you. And grace comes through faith and works together hand in hand.

As Vale and I stated, a non-Catholic can be saved. It is God who judges who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell. Man doesn't make that judgement. So, even if one is non-Catholic but sincerely seeks God, it is possible for that person to be saved.

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

Faith and works go together hand in hand. Faith alone does not save you and good works alone does not save you. Grace saves you. And grace comes through faith and works together hand in hand.

As Vale and I stated, a non-Catholic can be saved. It is God who decides who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell. Man doesn't make that decision. So, even if one is non-Catholic but sincerely seeks God, it is possible for that person to be saved.

Grace is God's part in salvation. It's available to everyone. Faith in that grace (the cross of Jesus Christ) is the action one takes to be saved. Works are the evidence that one has faith in God's grace! Works doesn't save you but like James said faith without works is dead!

Anybody can say I believe or I have faith! Does that save you? Where is the evidence of that one has accepted saving grace?
The evidence is in ones works!

 

[Selene]

Grace is God's part in salvation. It's available to everyone. Faith in that grace (the cross of Jesus Christ) is the action one takes to be saved. Works are the evidence that one has faith in God's grace! Works doesn't save you but like James said faith without works is dead!

I agree.

 

[musterion]

Faith and works go together hand in hand. Faith alone does not save you and good works alone does not save you. Grace saves you. And grace comes through faith and works together hand in hand.

As Vale and I stated, a non-Catholic can be saved. It is God who judges who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell. Man doesn't make that judgement. So, even if one is non-Catholic but sincerely seeks God, it is possible for that person to be saved.

I didn't ask you or Vale to judge who does or doesn't escape Hell.

I am asking...again...IF works are required in addition to faith FOR salvation, then what specific works must I do that will satisfy God? Surely you must have some idea what's required of anyone, Catholic or not.

 

[Selene]

I didn't ask you or Vale to judge who does or doesn't escape Hell.

I am asking...again...IF works are required in addition to faith FOR salvation, then what specific works must I do that will satisfy God? Surely you must have some idea what's required of anyone, Catholic or not.

Your good works alone cannot save you. It is only the good works that comes from the Holy Spirit. In other words, the Holy Spirit working in you which follows God's will. Alone, we cannot follow God. It is only with God that all things are possible.

Mark 10:17-22 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. You know the commandments: 'You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.' "Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy." Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

Following the commandments of God is not enough because that is simply human good works. Following God's will takes the workings of the Holy Spirit. If one follows God's will, it is not them doing the "good work", but the Holy Spirit "working" in them. And God works in us to accomplish His will on earth. So, if we allow God to take over our lives, giving up everything will not be viewed as a burden because we trust that God will provide.

 

[musterion]

Okay. So if you and I are not yet saved, how do we receive the power of the Holy Spirit to do truly good works like keep the 10 commandments (or helping old ladies cross the street, whatever)?

Also...if, as you and Vale insist, it IS possible for someone to be saved totally apart from the Roman Catholic church's many sacraments, and even rejecting the Roman Catholic church in its entirety, would it theoretically be possible for you to be saved the same way?

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

I didn't ask you or Vale to judge who does or doesn't escape Hell.

I am asking...again...IF works are required in addition to faith FOR salvation, then what specific works must I do that will satisfy God? Surely you must have some idea what's required of anyone, Catholic or not.

Works are not required for salvation. They are the evidence of it. One person can say I believe and have faith and go home, get drunk, go out on his wife, and rob the local convenience store. His works are evidence that the his faith in the Grace of God in Jesus Christ did not change his heart. If there's no change that means there's no being born again, and that means there was no regeneration and thus no salvation. Another can say I believe and act according to scripture with that belief. He goes home reads his bible and prays. He visits the sick, homeless, widows, and orphans. He goes to church, ask God to forgive his sins...in other words the works of the person whose faith is authentic has a definite change in his life whereas one whose faith results into nothing is lost. Want parables?

That's why I said that Acts 16:30-31 isn't an exegesis of the doctrine of salvation. You take the word believe in Acts 16:30-31 and pretty much say that that's all there is to salvation.

 

[musterion]

I can't see you anymore, KP. Just wanted you to know that in case you posted to my attention and got to wondering why I don't answer.

 

[Selene]

Also...if, as you and Vale insist, it IS possible for someone to be saved totally apart from the Roman Catholic church's many sacraments, and even rejecting the Roman Catholic church in its entirety, would it theoretically be possible for you to be saved the same way?

Are you asking if leaving the Catholic Church would save me?

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

I can't see you anymore, KP. Just wanted you to know that in case you posted to my attention and got to wondering why I don't answer.

I know it stinks being on the losing side of any argument on a public forum but good luck to you anyway....you need it!