Apologetics about Substitutionary Atonement

[Matthias]

"breath of life" is put into Adam's body.

See that?

It takes both to be a living human person.

And until God put the spirit into Adam's body, he was nothing more then "dust of the ground" in a human form.

This same spirit that God put into Adam, is your spirit that is inside your body., and it (your spirit) will never die.
its going to heaven or not, after your body dies, and you have the choice to Do what God said to do with Jesus or you can decide to NOT do it.

If you Take Jesus, as your Savior, then God takes you as His Son.

If not, then you have refused the only WAY that God has made available to become "born again".. into eternal spiritual union with Him.

Jesus said.......>>"YOU, must be BORN AGAIN"?. and that is not your body......that is your spirit that is separated from God who is "A Spirit".

 

[Behold]

It takes both to be a living human person.

Yes, you have to have a body, and you have to have the spirit in you.

Otherwise your body has no LIFE In it.

Ok then...

 

[Matthias]

Yes, you have to have a body, and you have to have the spirit in you.

Otherwise your body has no LIFE In it.

Ok then...

Otherwise the human person has no life in himself or herself.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

If substitutionary atonement were true, and Jesus died so that we wouldn't die, then believers wouldn't die. But we all die, so it can't be true. The doctrine may be central to Christian understanding, but it's wrong.

The mistake starts with considering that biological death is the outcome of a wrong moral decision: a sin.

Most Christians believe that Adam´s physical death was the result of his sin, as per the account of The Fall in the Garden of Eden.
So, Jesus came to undo that, and give us physical immortality, which is the result of the atonement of sins and physical resurrection of Jesus.

In summary, in their view, sin produces physical death. Atonement reverses that.
Since it is obvious that believer's bodies keep dying and buried, Christians explain that out by saying that what atonement does is to prevent the second death, in a lake of fire.

Science and reason, however, reveal that all plants and animals die. All bacteria die. And none of them has committed a sin.
Before the first human, there were trillions of living organisms which died, without having any human to accuse about having committed a sin.
There is plenty of evidence in the Scriptures that Jesus was interested in saving our souls. In the transformation of our heart.
The whole concept of "being born again" is not about the body.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It is appointed once for every human person to die (Hebrews 9:27). Substitutionary atonement doesn’t alter that fact. Jesus died so that those who belong to him will not die a second time, in the lake of fire.

Okay, how does this "substitution thing" work exactly? If a baseball team puts in a substitute pitcher, the substitute pitches the game so that the starter doesn't need to pitch.

If Jesus died as a substitute victim in my place so that I don't need to die, then why do I die?

 

[Matthias]

Okay, how does this "substitution thing" work exactly? If a baseball team puts in a substitute pitcher, the substitute pitches the game so that the starter doesn't need to pitch.

If Jesus died as a substitute victim in my place so that I don't need to die, then why do I die?

Whether or not Jesus stands in your place, you’re going to die. It’s only a matter of time. It’s as certain as the sun rising in the East and setting in the West.

If Jesus stands in your place, you’re not going to die the second death.

There is recovery from the first death. Resurrection.

There is no recovery from the second death. It’s an extinction event.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Okay, how does this "substitution thing" work exactly? If a baseball team puts in a substitute pitcher, the substitute pitches the game so that the starter doesn't need to pitch.

If Jesus died as a substitute victim in my place so that I don't need to die, then why do I die?

Hi, CandyandZoe

Indeed, such theology cannot explain why babies, who haven't sinned, die all the same.
Paul says (Roman 5:12): Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, so death has spread to all men, because all have sinned.

If Paul were worried about biological death, his statement would have been meaningless, as babies don't sin and still die. But Paul was concerned about a different kind of death, and a different kind of life.

Let me repeat this: Biological death is NOT the result of sinning. It is part of Creation. Even if you believed that God created the universe in 6 days, millions of bacteria and other microorganisms would have died between the day God created plants and the day Adam and Eve sinned.

Sin leads to a different kind of death: separation from God.

In the story of The Fall, God expells Adam and Eve from his presence, as a result of disobedience. Separation from God is death. Spiritual death. That's the kind of death that revelation is all about.

Christ came to take us back to the Father. This means to leave our dead spiritual state and embrace eternal life, which is the life of the spirit. Biology is not at stake here. Our bodies were created to get recycled, just as the body of the deer, the oak tree and the ameba.

 

[Behold]

Otherwise the human person has no life in himself or herself.

and that "Life" you posted about.... is what God "breathed" into the body, that was not alive yet., but was now made a living spirit, as ADAM.

And that "Life" is the Spirit in your body....... and when your body dies, your "life" (your spirit), is going to leave your body and enter eternity.

2 Options .. in Eternity.

Heaven

Hell


Jesus came so that we can all be forgiven our SIN , and become "born again"= back into spiritual union with God, and go to Heaven.

Otherwise.. the other option in eternity is where the unbeliever ends up.

 

[Behold]

The mistake starts with considering that biological death is the outcome of a wrong moral decision: a sin.

Biological death is the end result of Adam's Sin.
Had Adam not sinned against God, then his body would have never died.
His "sin" entered all of humanity, and we all end up as sinners, whose body is dying.

Adam's Spirit lost spiritual union with God, because of His sin, and 2nd Adam, who is Jesus, came to restore all who Believe in Jesus BY FAITH = back into ETERNAL Spiritual Union with God, that 1st Adam originally lost for us all.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Biological death is the end result of Adam's Sin.
Had Adam not sinned against God, then his body would have never died.
His "sin" entered all of humanity, and we all end up as sinners, whose body is dying.

I understand that you believe that, my brother, but...
How do you explain, then, that plants, animals and microorganisms die without having sinned?
How do you explain that trillions of beings had died before the appearance of man?
How do you explain that babies also die, if they can't sin?
How do you explain that the death of many of your cells is essential to keep you healthy?

Can you quote any verse in the Bible to support that biological death is the result of sin?

 

[Behold]

How do you explain, then, that plants, animals and microorganisms die without having sinned?

Animals and plants and microorganisms are not made "in the Image of God".
Humans are...

Plants dont have a soul, and animals, are lower class creations, that are not given the understanding of "right and wrong".
They operate on "instinct", only, and are not "made in the Image of God".
Only "man" is made in the image of God.

God said.>"Let US... make MAN, in our image".

Not plants and animals, and rocks, and microorganisms..

How do you explain that trillions of beings had died before the appearance of man?

Animals are not "made in the image of God", nor are plants or microorganisms, or moon rocks.

How do you explain that babies also die, if they can't sin?

Babies are free from any of that.. Including Aborted babies.
So are very young children.

They have no accountability regarding "law" and "commandments".

How do you explain that the death of many of your cells is essential to keep you healthy?

"the body is dead because of sin".

Adam's Sin is why you are dying... and that is because the fall of Adam is the fall of us all.

Can you quote any verse in the Bible to support that biological death is the result of sin?

Sure.

1 Corinthians 15:22

"In Adam we all die"

"ALL" means you too., @Pancho Frijoles

"the body is dead because of Sin."

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Plants dont have a soul, and animals, are lower class creations, that are not given the understanding of "right and wrong".

I agree. Then, why do they die?

Babies are free from any of that.. Including Aborted babies.
So are very young children.
They have no accountability regarding "law" and "commandments".

I agree. Then, why do they die?

1 Corinthians 15:22

"In Adam we all die"

"ALL" means you too., @Pancho Frijoles

"the body is dead because of Sin."

1 Corinthians 15:22 Paul is not talking about biological death.
Paul often used the metaphor of death to mean the spiritual death. As a corollary, being resurrected meant to die to sins (to abandone a past life of wickedness). Please look all this examples:

• Likewise, you also consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:11)
• To be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace, (Romans 8:6)
• And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has resurrected together with Him, having forgiven you all sins. (Colossians 2:13)
• And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, (Ephesians 2:1)
• even when we were dead in sins, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) (Ephesians 2:5)
  
  
  

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Okay, how does this "substitution thing" work exactly? If a baseball team puts in a substitute pitcher, the substitute pitches the game so that the starter doesn't need to pitch.

If Jesus died as a substitute victim in my place so that I don't need to die, then why do I die?

The inconsistency is clear.

To summarize:

According to the prevalent view among Christians, the result from Adam's sin is obvious: people die and are buried.
However, the result from having faith in Christ is not obvious: believers keep dying and being buried, despite their faith.
So, to get around the obvious, the results from faith in Christ are translated into a future state.

According to my view, the result from Adam's sin is obvious: people live separated from God.
And the result from having faith in Christ is obvious as well: believers have eternal life (a life of love to God and to our neighbors) here and now.
So, there is no need to postpone anything or to get around any inconsistency.

 

[Behold]

1 Corinthians 15:22 Paul is not talking about biological death.

"The body is dead, because of sin".. Romans 8:10

why?

"in Adam WE all die".

Sin entered the human race because of Adam and "Death by sin".

Romans 5:12 """ Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:""

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

"The body is dead, because of sin".. Romans 8:10

why?

"in Adam WE all die".

Sin entered the human race because of Adam and "Death by sin".

Romans 5:12 """ Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:""

Good morning, Behold

Well, you and me have committed many sins, but our bodies are not dead, are they?
This means Paul is not talking literally, but metaphorically .

To understand what Paul is talking about, please read a bit before verse 10. Read verses 5 and 6:

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. To be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace,

This death is spiritual death, the life of the flesh, which results from letting our body instincts and urges (anger, fear, sex drive, etc) to rule our life. Death is the situation of the "carnally minded". Do you agree?

Now we are in a better position to understand verses 9 and 10

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. Now if any man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is alive because of righteousness.

As a human, if I choose to be slave of my body (my flesh), I am dead.
But if Christ is in me and I let him rule, although I will continue to have body instincts and urges (I will continue to feel anger, fear, sex drive) and as such my body will be "dead", Christ will be my ruler and I will live the life of spirit. This is true life, eternal life, the abundant life that Christ offers.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Hi, CandyandZoe

Indeed, such theology cannot explain why babies, who haven't sinned, die all the same.
Paul says (Roman 5:12): Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, so death has spread to all men, because all have sinned.

If Paul were worried about biological death, his statement would have been meaningless, as babies don't sin and still die. But Paul was concerned about a different kind of death, and a different kind of life.

Let me repeat this: Biological death is NOT the result of sinning. It is part of Creation. Even if you believed that God created the universe in 6 days, millions of bacteria and other microorganisms would have died between the day God created plants and the day Adam and Eve sinned.

Sin leads to a different kind of death: separation from God.

In the story of The Fall, God expells Adam and Eve from his presence, as a result of disobedience. Separation from God is death. Spiritual death. That's the kind of death that revelation is all about.

Christ came to take us back to the Father. This means to leave our dead spiritual state and embrace eternal life, which is the life of the spirit. Biology is not at stake here. Our bodies were created to get recycled, just as the body of the deer, the oak tree and the ameba.

View attachment 47226

I agree with your view, but I don't think Paul is talking about separation from God as such. Paul refers to our death sentence. That is, all men are under a death sentence because all men sin. As you point out, and I agree, biological death isn't our death sentence. Our eternal destruction is our death sentence.

Concerning entropy, Paul spoke about that subject briefly in Romans 8, where he said,

Romans 8:19-21 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

futility = entropy
him who subjected it = God.

We empirically learn that this world was not created to last. It is destined to break down into a cloud of pudding. :) Eventually the creation will be set free of corruption.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The inconsistency is clear.

To summarize:

According to the prevalent view among Christians, the result from Adam's sin is obvious: people die and are buried.
However, the result from having faith in Christ is not obvious: believers keep dying and being buried, despite their faith.
So, to get around the obvious, the results from faith in Christ are translated into a future state.

According to my view, the result from Adam's sin is obvious: people live separated from God.
And the result from having faith in Christ is obvious as well: believers have eternal life (a life of love to God and to our neighbors) here and now.
So, there is no need to postpone anything or to get around any inconsistency.

I acknowledge that love is something we practice in the present. However, I wouldn't overlook the contrast presented in the Bible between "then" and "now". For example, a quick examination of the Sermon on the Mount shows Jesus comparing and contrasting the current state of affairs with how things will be in the future.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I agree with your view, but I don't think Paul is talking about separation from God as such. Paul refers to our death sentence. That is, all men are under a death sentence because all men sin. As you point out, and I agree, biological death isn't our death sentence. Our eternal destruction is our death sentence.

Good morning, CadyandZoe

It is always a pleasure to read you.

I agree with you about "eternal destruction" begin our death sentence. This destruction, though, is not something that happens exclusively in a distant future, but condition present now in any person who lives as slave of his sins.
For those who were born again, that has become a past condition. "You were dead in your sins"

Since Adam, we all have sinned and we all have got the consequence, or sentence, of such sins: to experience the separation from God, the expulsion from the Garden of our childhood and innocence. We all experience "hell", prison, slavery, spiritual death.

The miserable condition of the prodigal son, devoid of wealth and dignity, coveting the food of the pigs, is the condition we are saved from.
The miserable condition of Jonah, in the darkness of the whale's belly, in turn in the darkness of the ocean, is the condition we are rescued from.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I acknowledge that love is something we practice in the present. However, I wouldn't overlook the contrast presented in the Bible between "then" and "now". For example, a quick examination of the Sermon on the Mount shows Jesus comparing and contrasting the current state of affairs with how things will be in the future.

I agree.
There are conditions... especially material conditions, that pertain to the future.
How could Jesus tell an Israelite peasant, who was experiencing hunger, disease, injustice, political oppression, that the Kingdom had arrived?
Yet, Jesus announced that.

There is, definitively, something in the future that awaits us.
Still, there is something in the present that we can seize... and that's the most important part of the Gospel.
Several references in the Bible speak about having eternal life as something in the present, and not only in the future.

 

[Behold]

Good morning, Behold

Well, you and me have committed many sins, but our bodies are not dead, are they?

See any Graveyard for an update on .. "The body is dead because of sin".

There is a reason that 160,000 people (worldwide) die each day..

A.) "The body is dead because of sin".