Any non pre-trib teachers?

[Ronald Nolette]

There are 36 articles that refute the 'rapture to heaven', on the website- logostelos.info Free to read, all scripturally supported.
Enjoy!

Promoting yourself I see!

And all 36 are wrong! as you now know!

Just one verse refutes your 36 self promoted articles:

John 14
King James Version

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.


IF the Fathers house is on earth right now- then I agree 100% with you, but if the Fathers House is in the third heaven-then the bible says you are wrong by 100%

But as the church/body of Christ is also the Bride(espoused) of Jesus, we are found in heaven to wed jesus prior to His return!

Revelation 19:6-7
King James Version

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.


Here Gods Word says the Lambs bride has made herself readyand is clothed with fine linen. she has already undergone the Bema judgment. If a portion of the bride is still alive and well on earth and struggling in the Tribulation- then this part of the word of God is wrong (or more correctly your understanding is wrong)

And finally the coup de grace if you will:

2 Corinthians 5:5-8
King James Version

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


What you said about this verse is not the word of God, but merely the opinion of Keraz. But I challenge you again: Why should we take your interpretation of this passage as literal and not take the passage itself as literal.

 

[Keraz]

Promoting yourself I see!

No. Promoting the Bible Prophets.

Just one verse refutes your 36 self promoted articles:

John 14:1 is a reference to the New Jerusalem, which comes to the earth AFTER the Millennium.

Revelation 19:6-7 is talking about the dead saints, whose souls are kept under the Altar in heaven, they are allowed to speak at times. Revelation 6:9-11
Obviously they are not describing themselves. Those living people who are worthy, are the ones who stood firm in their faith during all that will happen before Jesus returns.

2 Corinthians 5:5-8 does NOT say we go to heaven at all.
Paul is just wishing for for it, but he had to go on with his task, as we all must do.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If you mean a 'post trib rapture to heaven',

not sure what you mean here

 

[Keraz]

not sure what you mean here

The verse that is one most used and abused by 'rapture' believers, is 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
It states that when Jesus Returns, he will gather His people to Him. Note carefully; that this happens AFTER He has departed from heaven. Proved by Matthew 24:30-31.
So; those Christians who remain will be brought to where Jesus is, initially through the atmosphere, then to Jerusalem. Just as Philip was transported. Acts 8:39

 

[Randy Kluth]

Some do, but to paint all pretribbers with your broad brush is bigoted of you.

I am a pre tribber because after 46 years of being a believer, I have learned that it is the only time fo the rapture that makes biblical sense!

Every mid, pre-wrath, and post tribber I have read and studied have all had to gerrymander Scriptures to fit their timeline.

I have taugh a dispensational eschatology for 35 yearsin churches, and bible Institutes. I am currently preparing for a zoom debate with a pre-wrath pastor where we may go televised as well.

I don't sensationalize or do anything you falsely accuse me of. I teach and wwarn people to live holy lives,

Proving a pre trib rapture is biblically easy based on only three lines of reasoning.

1. REv. 6
2. 1 thess. 1
3. the purpose for teh tribulation period.

Good luck with your debate. I don't judge you personally. I'm looking at Pretrib overall, recognizing that it tends towards sensationalism. Could it be today??????

If that's not you, then I'm fine with that. God bless.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The verse that is one most used and abused by 'rapture' believers, is 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
It states that when Jesus Returns, he will gather His people to Him. Note carefully; that this happens AFTER He has departed from heaven. Proved by Matthew 24:30-31.
So; those Christians who remain will be brought to where Jesus is, initially through the atmosphere, then to Jerusalem. Just as Philip was transported. Acts 8:39

Then I ask again

where did the people clothes in righteousness declairiing the lamb who saved them come from, if no one has been raptured yet?

Revelation 5:9
And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

and if they are raptured then immediately return in their glorified bodies? When did he be a seat happen where they recieved their rewards, as well as the robes and crowns?

I mean you have an issue that can’t be resolved.

you say we abuse a passage, are you not abusing the word?

just saying

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Good luck with your debate. I don't judge you personally. I'm looking at Pretrib overall, recognizing that it tends towards sensationalism. Could it be today??????

If that's not you, then I'm fine with that. God bless.

I tend not to discard a belief because a few people dramatize it because they do not understand it.

I tend to try to look at facts in the word then go from there

could Jesus come today? I believe some things must occur first,

one thing that is amazing is even 100 years ago pre trib could be laughable, you had to go strictly off faith with things unseen

today many thing which would have to occur have or are taking place. To me it is amazing what Ching prophecy unfold, I love it

 

[Ronald Nolette]

John 14:1 is a reference to the New Jerusalem, which comes to the earth AFTER the Millennium.

Yes it does- and as Paul wrote that when we are absent from the body we are present with the Lord! IN the New Jerusalem which is still in heaven!

No. Promoting the Bible Prophets.

No a reinterpretation of the Prophets. They never reached your conclusions. But we will let God judge between us on this as well as time!

2 Corinthians 5:5-8 does NOT say we go to heaven at all.
Paul is just wishing for for it, but he had to go on with his task, as we all must do.

YOu are worse than Jehovahs witnesses in mangling Scripture!

Revelation 19:6-7 is talking about the dead saints, whose souls are kept under the Altar in heaven, they are allowed to speak at times. Revelation 6:9-11
Obviously they are not describing themselves. Those living people who are worthy, are the ones who stood firm in their faith during all that will happen before Jesus returns.

I fear for you - you are going deeper and deeper into prophetic heresy.

Speak at times? YOu certainly sound like you are trying to form a cult around your teachings on your website that you promote!

No one would ever come up with your opinions of all teh Scriptures you and I have posted without your materials "helping them" understand what God was really trying to say! That is a defining mark of a cultist.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Good luck with your debate. I don't judge you personally. I'm looking at Pretrib overall, recognizing that it tends towards sensationalism. Could it be today??????

If that's not you, then I'm fine with that. God bless.

Well teh Rapture is an any moment event! there is no time given in SCripture. It is called an end time event now because we are living in the compressed time of the last days since 1948.

Just because some take and sensationalize the truth- does not mean we should reject the truth because of some mishandling it!

That is just like the charismatic gifts! Just because whole denominations abuse them and televangelists abuse them for filthy lucres sake does not mean that the gifts are not valid!

YOur definitions sound like you are throwing out the baby with the bath water.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well teh Rapture is an any moment event! there is no time given in SCripture. It is called an end time event now because we are living in the compressed time of the last days since 1948.

Just because some take and sensationalize the truth- does not mean we should reject the truth because of some mishandling it!

That is just like the charismatic gifts! Just because whole denominations abuse them and televangelists abuse them for filthy lucres sake does not mean that the gifts are not valid!

YOur definitions sound like you are throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Not at all. I agree with your point about not throwing out the gifts due to some abusers of the gifts. I've been part of the Charismatic Movement for about 50 years. I've seen lots of abuses, but consider myself one of them because of the importance of walking in the Spirit, with accompanying evidences that God is moving together with us in our lives.

I see nowhere, however, that sanctions the idea that Christ could come today, for instance. Yes, the day of his Coming is ambiguous, but nowhere in the Scriptures are we told he could come *today.* We are told to always be ready, but that means something completely different.

We are not to be ready always because he could come today. We are to be ready always for the Kingdom simply because that's the right thing to do. We are to be always ready for judgment by living right. That way we won't ever be judged, whether today, next week, or next year.

 

[Keraz]

Then I ask again

where did the people clothes in righteousness declairiing the lamb who saved them come from, if no one has been raptured yet?

They are the ones who have stood firm in their faith and trusted the Lord for His protection, through the great ordeal [tribulation] of the just happened world wide disaster by fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis, of the Sixth Seal Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath.

and if they are raptured then immediately return in their glorified bodies? When did he be a seat happen where they recieved their rewards, as well as the robes and crowns?

No one is 'raptured', we must endure thru it all.

I mean you have an issue that can’t be resolved.

you say we abuse a passage, are you not abusing the word?

You mean that you can't see it. That is because what the Bible prophets actually say, in different from your beliefs.

Yes it does- and as Paul wrote that when we are absent from the body we are present with the Lord! IN the New Jerusalem which is still in heaven!

Paul did not say that would happen. He said; he would rather be exiled from the body and make our home with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8
The New Jerusalem comes down to mankind. Revelation 21:1 THEN those worthy will live in it.

YOu are worse than Jehovahs witnesses in mangling Scripture!

What you do, is to make the prophesies suit your beliefs.
When anything contradicts your beliefs, instead of proving it wrong, you resort to rude accusations.

I fear for you - you are going deeper and deeper into prophetic heresy.

Speak at times? YOu certainly sound like you are trying to form a cult around your teachings on your website that you promote!

What I promote from the Prophetic Word, is opposed to your beliefs. I and others know which one to trust!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Not at all. I agree with your point about not throwing out the gifts due to some abusers of the gifts. I've been part of the Charismatic Movement for about 50 years. I've seen lots of abuses, but consider myself one of them because of the importance of walking in the Spirit, with accompanying evidences that God is moving together with us in our lives.

I see nowhere, however, that sanctions the idea that Christ could come today, for instance. Yes, the day of his Coming is ambiguous, but nowhere in the Scriptures are we told he could come *today.* We are told to always be ready, but that means something completely different.

We are not to be ready always because he could come today. We are to be ready always for the Kingdom simply because that's the right thing to do. We are to be always ready for judgment by living right. That way we won't ever be judged, whether today, next week, or next year.

Matthew 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

We do know the day of his second coming- 7 years after Israel signs a covenant with the AntiChrist

Romans 13:11-13
King James Version

11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.

Mark 13:32-37
King James Version

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.



There is no biblical prophecy or event that must take place for the rapture to occur.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Matthew 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

We do know the day of his second coming- 7 years after Israel signs a covenant with the AntiChrist

Romans 13:11-13
King James Version

11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.

Mark 13:32-37
King James Version

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.



There is no biblical prophecy or event that must take place for the rapture to occur.

What you're doing it claiming Jesus is wrong, and I won't go there. If Jesus said nobody knows the day of his return, except the Father, that's exactly what he means.

I realize that you're claiming that the 2nd Coming is different from his 1st Coming. But Jesus plainly said nobody knows that day of his Coming, whether you think he comes twice or not.

Yes, Jesus comes 3.5 years after Antichrist begins his reign (not 7 years). But he doesn't come precisely 3.5 years after he begins his reign.

Rather, after Antichrist's unchallenged reign comes to an end at the end of 3.5 years, there may be an indeterminate period of time in which the nations rebel against Antichrist, leading to a mobilization to Armageddon in Israel. International mobilization takes time, and we are not told precisely how long it will take.

So no--we don't know the day of Christ's Return at the end of the age, aka the 2nd Coming. And we shouldn't try to contradict what Jesus said about not knowing when he is returning.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

They are the ones who have stood firm in their faith and trusted the Lord for His protection, through the great ordeal [tribulation] of the just happened world wide disaster by fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis, of the Sixth Seal Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath.

Yet they are their before the first seal is opened and the day of God wrath has begun

you have a timing issue my friend

No one is 'raptured', we must endure thru it all.

That’s your belief but Paul states otherwise

You mean that you can't see it. That is because what the Bible prophets actually say, in different from your beliefs.

But I do see it, and you have done nothing to change my mind

Again your major issue is explaining to,e how people have been raptured, judged and given their robes BEFOR the first seal is opened which STARTS the tribulation, not AFTER to tribulation is completed as you proclaim

 

[Keraz]

What you're doing it claiming Jesus is wrong, and I won't go there. If Jesus said nobody knows the day of his return, except the Father, that's exactly what he means.

Jesus was NOT referring to His Return in Matthew 24:36, it is His Day of vengeance and wrath, that we don't know when it will happen.
The Return will be known to anyone with a Bible, as being exactly 1260 days after the Temple is desecrated by the 'beast'.

Again your major issue is explaining to,e how people have been raptured, judged and given their robes BEFOR the first seal is opened which STARTS the tribulation, not AFTER to tribulation is completed as you proclaim

The First Five Seals were opened when Jesus Ascended. Proved by the wars, famines and plagues we have had and the Christian martyrs since Stephen.
You fail to read Revelation 7:14 that explains how people get their white robes. NOT by being 'raptured' or judged, but by standing firm in their faith through the just happed great ordeal of the Sixth Seal disaster.

 

[Enoch111]

...I don't agree with the pre-trib rapture that they are always teaching...

In other words you are simply looking for teachers who tickle your ears. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a sound Bible doctrine, since the coming of Christ FOR His saints is always shown to be imminent (could happen at any time).

Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Jesus was NOT referring to His Return in Matthew 24:36, it is His Day of vengeance and wrath, that we don't know when it will happen.
The Return will be known to anyone with a Bible, as being exactly 1260 days after the Temple is desecrated by the 'beast'.

That isn't possible, brother. There are at least 3.5 days *after* the 1260 days in which the 2 Witnesses lie in the streets of Jerusalem. This is *before* the 2nd Coming. To say this isn't the 2nd Coming flies in the face of 2000 years of Christian teaching. The Day of Christ's Wrath is the same as the Day of his Coming in Wrath.

Not only so, but I also believe that 1260 days applies only to the actual days in which Antichrist has complete control of his empire on earth. Following that time period, the nations mobilize for battle, seemingly indicating Antichrist has now lost his temporary mandate to universal power.

The mobilization of many nations to Armageddon itself will take some time. So to say Christ Returns or brings judgment immediately on the 1260th day is, in my view, completely wrong. We don't know the day or the hour.

The First Five Seals were opened when Jesus Ascended. Proved by the wars, famines and plagues we have had and the Christian martyrs since Stephen.

That also isn't possible. The 1st 5 Seals were opened in a vision *after* Jesus ascended into heaven. They are like the birth pains Jesus mentioned in the Olivet Discourse, but are, I think, placed in a new context--in the NT era after Israel's demise. The "birth pains" of Israel were mentioned in the Olivet Discourse as applying only to Israel, prior to the Fall of Jerusalem. They were signs that the temple of Jewish worship was about to be destroyed by the Roman "eagles."

The same kinds of signs precede God's judgment of all nations, just as he gave those signs to Israel before they were judged. It's just that before God judged Israel He gave them Christ and his Apostles to testify to them, along with these signs of impending judgment.

So I would assume that these signs given in Rev 6 to the nations of the world must be accompanied by the witness of the Church in all nations prior to their judgment at Christ's Return. Different subjects, different eras, and different results, but all similar in language and effect.

You fail to read Revelation 7:14 that explains how people get their white robes. NOT by being 'raptured' or judged, but by standing firm in their faith through the just happed great ordeal of the Sixth Seal disaster.

I don't fail to see that. What makes you think so? But I do think this is a prolepsis taking place at Christ's Coming, and not a single event that earns a trophy for a limited number of people.

These are *all* the NT saints, who have come through numerous trials to their faith. The "tribulation" they endure is not just your catastrophic solar emissions, but more, the tribulations of the entire NT age, in which the world is tossed to and fro, and Christians are persecuted.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Jesus was NOT referring to His Return in Matthew 24:36, it is His Day of vengeance and wrath, that we don't know when it will happen.
The Return will be known to anyone with a Bible, as being exactly 1260 days after the Temple is desecrated by the 'beast'.

I have already proven people have been “caught up” and judged before the day of wrath has occurred

the rapture is not a coming we are caught up to him, he does not come down to us.

rapture means “caught up”, again you have nothing to offer me

The First Five Seals were opened when Jesus Ascended. Proved by the wars, famines and plagues we have had and the Christian martyrs since Stephen.
You fail to read Revelation 7:14 that explains how people get their white robes. NOT by being 'raptured' or judged, but by standing firm in their faith through the just happed great ordeal of the Sixth Seal disaster.

yawn, whatever man, this type of thinking just helps me in my belief and makes your thinking even more unbelievable,

the great tribulation is the end, not 2000 years old

 

[Keraz]

In other words you are simply looking for teachers who tickle your ears. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a sound Bible doctrine, since the coming of Christ FOR His saints is always shown to be imminent (could happen at any time).

It is those who want to believe the unbelievable.
A pre-trib rapture to heaven of the Church, is far from 'sound doctrine'. The Bible never says that God intends to take His faithful Christian peoples to heaven, they are His witness's on earth and eventually God and heaven come to us. Revelation 21:1-7

That isn't possible, brother. There are at least 3.5 days *after* the 1260 days in which the 2 Witnesses lie in the streets of Jerusalem.

I see the 3 1/2 days when the 2 Witness's lie dead, as included in the 1260. It is before the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 11:12-15

I also believe that 1260 days applies only to the actual days in which Antichrist has complete control of his empire on earth. Following that time period, the nations mobilize for battle, seemingly indicating Antichrist has now lost his temporary mandate to universal power.

Quite right, the leader of the One World Govt, sits in the Temple and declares himself to be God. This commences the Great Trib of 3 1/2 years, of 42 months or 1260 days; all referring to the same time, ending with the Return of Jesus and Armageddon.

The mobilization of many nations to Armageddon itself will take some time. So to say Christ Returns or brings judgment immediately on the 1260th day is, in my view, completely wrong. We don't know the day or the hour.

Yes; the armies gather some time before Armageddon. Obviously Satan knows Jesus is coming!

Jesus never said we wouldn't know the time of His Return.
It will be the sudden and shocking Day of His fiery wrath, that will strike unexpectedly.

That also isn't possible. The 1st 5 Seals were opened in a vision *after* Jesus ascended into heaven

It IS possible and it IS what has happened. The first five Seals were opened in the 1st century. Proved by the 5th Seal, the Christian martyrs from Stephen and still added to today.

I don't fail to see that. What makes you think so? But I do think this is a prolepsis taking place at Christ's Coming, and not a single event that earns a trophy for a limited number of people.

The usual interpretation of Revelation 7, is that it all or, mostly takes place in heaven. This idea directly contradicts Revelation 7:1-3, which describe earthly scenes. There is no change of location in that chapter. Those faithful people who kept strong in their faith when the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, are seen by John; gathered in Jerusalem, as many other prophesies say they will.

Jesus and all the Bible prophets will get all the trophies. I just point out what they said.

These are *all* the NT saints, who have come through numerous trials to their faith. The "tribulation" they endure is not just your catastrophic solar emissions, but more, the tribulations of the entire NT age, in which the world is tossed to and fro, and Christians are persecuted.

How much really serious 'tribulation' have you had lately? Living in the western world as we do; None, zilch, nada.....
But believe 1 Peter 3:12 and be ready for it!

I have already proven people have been “caught up” and judged before the day of wrath has occurred

There is no Bible verse that says this will happen. It muse be assumed and is pure conjecture.

yawn, whatever man, this type of thinking just helps me in my belief and makes your thinking even more unbelievable,

Of course you and all who have been deceived by false teachings, won't change your beliefs, no matter how many Bible proofs I present.
It would take a very dramatic event to do that. Surprise!!! That is just what the Lord is going to do; Isaiah 29:5-6, Isaiah 48:3, Psalms 73:19-20, Revelation 6:12-17

 

[Randy Kluth]

It is those who want to believe the unbelievable.
I see the 3 1/2 days when the 2 Witness's lie dead, as included in the 1260. It is before the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 11:12-15

That is not possible. The 2 Witnesses prophecy and minister for 1260 days. If they are dead 4 of those days then they didn't actually minister for 1260 days!

Jesus never said we wouldn't know the time of His Return.
It will be the sudden and shocking Day of His fiery wrath, that will strike unexpectedly.

Jesus said no man knows the day of his Return.

It IS possible and it IS what has happened. The first five Seals were opened in the 1st century. Proved by the 5th Seal, the Christian martyrs from Stephen and still added to today.

When you said the 1st 5 seals were fulfilled *at Jesus' ascension,* it sounded like you were placing all 5 seals precisely *at that event.* Apparently not. I misunderstood you.

But you seem to see them as Early Church--I do not. I see the seals as preliminary to Christ's Coming, including the entire NT period. It is a warning to the world regarding the judgment to take place at Christ's Return.

That's precisely how these signs were used to warn Israel prior to its judgment in 70 AD. Only the seals of the book of Revelation are concerned with the whole world, and no longer just with Israel. This is an ongoing historical process that involves the entire NT period, in my opinion.

The usual interpretation of Revelation 7, is that it all or, mostly takes place in heaven. This idea directly contradicts Revelation 7:1-3, which describe earthly scenes. There is no change of location in that chapter. Those faithful people who kept strong in their faith when the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, are seen by John; gathered in Jerusalem, as many other prophesies say they will.

Yes, this is the typical view of futurists, who want to predict, in detail, the endtimes. This is precisely what you yourself wish to do in predicting a Solar Flare. I don't believe future prophecies were designed to be catalogued, explained in minute detail, and then anticipated, as if we have a crystal ball to warn us.

Rather, we prepare for judgment simply by living righteous lives--not by anticipating future events in great detail. Not by knowing what the "mark of the Beast" is, who the Antichrist is, and what the 6th Seal is! These are general warnings that we should live in Christ and maintain clean lives.

We aren't all called to interpret palms! ;) I admit, it is fun to see our God work out history in accordance with His blueprint in the Scriptures. But it largely remains a murky picture--intentionally so--so that we don't try to use Scriptures like people approached Nostradamus or Edgar Cayce. Rather, we approach prophecy by abiding in Christ.

The vision of the Great Multitude, and also of the 144,000 in Rev 14, are prolepses, representing the final state of the saints at the 2nd Coming. Their purpose is to show what they must go through to get there.

Heavenly visions are not for the purpose of showing whether they are on earth or in heaven. Visions are by definition "heavenly visions." If they are viewed in heaven, it simply indicates they are visions from God, and not necessarily the actual events being described in literal terms!

How much really serious 'tribulation' have you had lately? Living in the western world as we do; None, zilch, nada.....

You really have no idea, do you? You must not be living for Christ?

My entire life, since my teens, has been a tribulation and a persecution. Spiritual opposition began the moment I decided to live my entire life for Christ, and determined to share who I was in Christ to the world.

Presenting his word to the world brings rejection, opposition, and persecution. If you don't experience this, you must be living for Christ on a small island in the Pacific, with nobody else living there? ;)