Another Premillennial absurdity

[WPM]

So Jesus isn't human? Why did I know you would say that? I knew this wouldn't last long. Either Jesus is human or he isn't. I wonder if you believe he is human.

He is both human and God. Only those who have eyes to see will get that.

 

[WPM]

Jesus didn't heal by his own power. As I pointed out, through the Miracles God the Father proved that he sent Jesus to speak for him. He told them, "if you don't believe me, believe the miracles that I do."

You do not want to accept the deity of Christ. Your rejection of numerous Scripture proves that. Jesus is the Creator. What He says occurs. He spoke the world into being. He has creative power in His tongue. He was/is divinity in operation. What He says happened.

 

[covenantee]

So Jesus isn't human? Why did I know you would say that? I knew this wouldn't last long. Either Jesus is human or he isn't. I wonder if you believe he is human.

Which of the recognized ante-Nicene church fathers denied that Jesus is God?

Still awaiting your answer.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Jesus is not omnipotent. He needs the help of Angels. Matthew 26:53
Jesus is not omniscient. He does not know the day or the hour. Matthew 24:36
Jesus is not omnipresent. He comes to a church. Revelation 2:16

If Jesus was Deity, he would have these attributes. He doesn't have these attributes so he isn't Deity.
What else?

With all due respect, Cady, Jesus is the Divine Person! As such, he has the divine attributes from which he came, and he also has the limited human attributes to where he went, or in what he became.

Both are true. He is the Divine Person and he is a human person. He, in hiding away some of his divine attributes, did not stop having them in his Divine Person. He only stopped having them in respect to his choice to appear as a human revelation of Deity.

Let's say I was a king, and decided to appear as a pauper. In becoming a pauper I did not stop being a king--I just set aside some of my prerogatives as a king and did not choose to use those abilities.

This is something you're going to have to think out for yourself. You have a lot to say, but my fear is that you're neutralizing what you have to say by voicing heretical positions.

I've not thought of you as a heretic because you've come right out and said you think Jesus is God. But in hearing you now, the language makes it confusing.

I hope you get it figured out, because you've given hostile people a means of negating a lot of what you've legitimately put out there. But I want you to be honest between you and God as well. We cannot force things--we can only suggest things. The only One worthy of demanding the truth from us is you know Who. ;)

 

[Timtofly]

Even worse than that! It's re-writing the Words of God in the way they think God really meant. IOW thinking they know better than God and need to teach Him.

Like Amil who don't like the Millennium reign of Christ.

They tell God what is what, and twist the Scriptures.

 

[Truth7t7]

Can I ask you a question? What is deity? List as many attributes associated with Deity as you can.

One thing I know, my Jesus is different than yours, and there's only one real Jesus

Jesus Christ Is The Lord God Almighty, The Creator Of All Things, The Alpha/Omega

 

[rwb]

One thing I know, my Jesus is different than yours, and there's only one real Jesus

Jesus Christ Is The Lord God Almighty, The Creator Of All Things, The Alpha/Omega

Since C&Z deny that Christ is the great I AM, they shall die in their sins unless they repent. Claiming to be I AM is His claim to deity! And the reason He was crucified, because He agreed when the Pharisee's asked if His was, "I AM".

John 8:24 (KJV) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am (he), ye shall die in your sins.

Exodus 3:14 (KJV) And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

 

[Truth7t7]

Since C&Z deny that Christ is the great I AM, they shall die in their sins unless they repent. Claiming to be I AM is His claim to deity! And the reason He was crucified, because He agreed when the Pharisee's asked if His was, "I AM".

John 8:24 (KJV) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am (he), ye shall die in your sins.

Exodus 3:14 (KJV) And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

I Agree, God Almighty "From The Beginning" God Creator, and yes the poster denies Jesus Christ thats found in my Holy Bible that I serve and find my eternal salvation in

Jesus Is The Lord God Almighty, Alpha/Omega

John 8:24-25KJV
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

 

[Truth7t7]

Same question. Name as many attributes of Deity as you can. It shouldn't be hard

To be honest I have no desire to interact with a poster that denies Jesus Christ as found in my Holy Bible

Your theology belongs in a forum for the cult of Jehovahs Witnesses, and I have no desire to hang out in their Kingdom Hall at this time

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[CadyandZoe]

The point is you do not accept Jesus as a person can exist outside of the creation, that He personally created, as the Word, and was given as a person.

Jesus reigns over creation. But all on earth has not submitted to that authority until after the Second Coming and the final harvest.

I accept what the Bible says about him, that he is a man. He was born, and he died. He grew in wisdom, but he didn't know everything. He and the Father were one. He had his own will but he always obeyed his father, even unto death. When he walked among his people, it was as if God himself were walking among his people. He told Philip, "If you have seen me, you have seen the father." John writes this about him, "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." Paul said this about him, " He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature."

 

[CadyandZoe]

He is both human and God. Only those who have eyes to see will get that.

I understand the theological doctrine of the "hypostatic union." This doctrine came from a set of philosophical assumptions unfamiliar to the Bible. The same line of thinking also leads to the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation and the Lutheran doctrine of consubstantiation.

1. the doctrine, especially in Lutheran belief, that the substance of the bread and wine coexists with the body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist.
   

The fundamental idea behind these doctrines, which teach cannibalism, comes from the philosophical assumption that the "essence" of a thing can exist in another form. So, in the case of consubstantiation, the bread is actually and in essence, the body of Christ, even though the body of Christ also exists as a piece of bread.

Likewise, the Trinity Doctrine teaches that the essence of the one God exists in three persons. Just as a Lutheran can claim that the bread of the eucharist is, in essence, the actual body of Christ; a Lutheran can claim that the man Jesus is, in essence, God.

For the same reason I reject the doctrine of consubstantiation, I reject the doctrine of "hypostatic union." So you see, for those who have the eyes to see, I am rejecting Aristotelian philosophical assumptions. I am not rejecting Biblical teaching.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You do not want to accept the deity of Christ. Your rejection of numerous Scripture proves that. Jesus is the Creator. What He says occurs. He spoke the world into being. He has creative power in His tongue. He was/is divinity in operation. What He says happened.

I reject your interpretation of the events and what they indicate. Consider the following passage where Jesus explains the relationship between the miracles and the Father's testimony about Jesus.

John 10:24-26

The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.​

In this short passage, the Lord substantiates his claim to be the Messiah. The miracles that Jesus performs are done in the name of the Father and in this way the Father himself is testifying about Jesus.

the works that I do in My Father’s name
How does this work? How do the miracles of Jesus stand as direct testimony from the Father himself? The Father has given the son the authority to heal the sick, cast out demons, and other works; but the power to perform such miracles is in the hands of the Father. As such, the miracles serve as the Father's testimony of the Son's authority. In this way, the miracles are signal events, which indicate the Father's agreement that Jesus is, indeed, the Messiah.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Which of the recognized ante-Nicene church fathers denied that Jesus is God?

Still awaiting your answer.

How long are you willing to wait?

 

[CadyandZoe]

With all due respect, Cady, Jesus is the Divine Person! As such, he has the divine attributes from which he came, and he also has the limited human attributes to where he went, or in what he became.

Both are true. He is the Divine Person and he is a human person. He, in hiding away some of his divine attributes, did not stop having them in his Divine Person. He only stopped having them in respect to his choice to appear as a human revelation of Deity.

Let's say I was a king, and decided to appear as a pauper. In becoming a pauper I did not stop being a king--I just set aside some of my prerogatives as a king and did not choose to use those abilities.

This is something you're going to have to think out for yourself. You have a lot to say, but my fear is that you're neutralizing what you have to say by voicing heretical positions.

I've not thought of you as a heretic because you've come right out and said you think Jesus is God. But in hearing you now, the language makes it confusing.

I hope you get it figured out, because you've given hostile people a means of negating a lot of what you've legitimately put out there. But I want you to be honest between you and God as well. We cannot force things--we can only suggest things. The only One worthy of demanding the truth from us is you know Who. ;)

Let's discuss the idea, presented by the Apostle Paul, that Jesus is the image of God. What does it mean to be an "image" of something? What kinds of examples of imagery can we find in everyday life?

How about a photograph?
Consider the following dialog.

Mary and Betty are seated on the couch, and Mary is showing Betty her family photo album. Mary says, to Betty, "This is our two sons and my husband. I took this picture while we were on vacation last year." Betty asks Mary, "Who is that? Mary replies, "That's my cousin Darlene. She was a lot younger then."​

The short story above illustrates one particular type of representation, wherein Mary clearly indicates the identity of those depicted in the photos and Betty tacitly understands that the photo is an image of a real, actual person. The likeness and semblance of the photo helps Betty form a mental picture of the person, helping her associate a name with a face. If Betty were to see these people in person, she would recognize them.

Take note of how normal it seems to us that Mary was able to point to a picture of Darlene and say "This is Darlene." Is Mary suggesting that the photograph, the piece of paper itself, is Darlene? No. Everyone knows, by convention, that pointing to a photograph is one way to identify the subject of conversation. When Mary says, "This is Darlene" everyone knows she means "This photo is an image of Darlene." The image of Darlene has enough data points in common with the real Darlene, that Betty is able to form a mental picture of Darlene for future reference.

How about a mirror?
The mirror projects an image of an object placed in front of it. One who stands in front of a mirror sees a reflection of himself as you know. And although the person and the mirror are both real, the image of the person in the mirror is still but a representation of the person standing in front of the mirror.

Father and daughter are standing before a mirror and father tells daughter, "see honey, that's the way a mirror works. When you see me in the mirror you are seeing me." Father raises his hand up and down. "See that? When I move my hand up and down, the image in the mirror also moves his hands up and down. That person in the mirror is me."​

Here we see another kind of representation, whereby a mirror projects an image of the person standing in front of it. And to the degree that the mirror is able to represent the father, the daughter is able to identify him and make the association between he and his reflection. She comes to understand that whenever she sees his reflection in the mirror, she is seeing her father.

How about sheet music?
"Sheet music is a handwritten or printed form of musical notation that uses musical symbols to indicate the pitches, rhythms, or chords of a song . . ." (Wikipedia) Sheet music, in a sense, is another form of representation. The song, which is a poem set to music, is understood by most everyone during a performance of the song or when sung in the presence of human beings.

Consider the hymn, "Holy, Holy, Holy" which I played on guitar in Church. I had the congregation open the hymnal to the hymn and as I played guitar, the congregation sang the hymn together. We all tacitly understood that the music on the page of the hymnal represented the hymn in another medium. The song existed in the form of the sounds and words we sang, but it also existed in the medium of paper and symbols. The page in the book represented the song we sang as we interpreted the notations on the page.

Here we are talking about one thing being represented in two different mediums. Playing and singing the song is an interpretation of the symbols and words on the page. The song exists in the form of the human voice and it also exists in the form of sheet music.

I hope that with these three examples you can understand what I mean, and what the Bible means by the idea that Jesus is the image of God. This is exactly what John meant when he said that Jesus was the interpretation of God. John 1:18 Jesus is God as expressed within a human medium. Jesus has enough of the divine attributes that he perfectly images God. Jesus has God's character; loving, truthful, just and merciful, constant, and faithful. Jesus is God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

One thing I know, my Jesus is different than yours, and there's only one real Jesus

Jesus Christ Is The Lord God Almighty, The Creator Of All Things, The Alpha/Omega

Okay, but I wonder if you understand the charges against me? If I may, I would like to help you by listing some of the essential attributes of Deity.

There can be only one Deity.
The following attributes are unique to Deity:

God Is Infinite – He is Self-Existing, Without Origin
God Is Immutable – He Never Changes
God Is Self-Sufficient – He Has No Needs
God is Omnipotent – He Is All Powerful
God Is Omniscient – He Is All-Knowing
God Is Omnipresent – He Is Always Everywhere
God Is Wise – He Is Full of Perfect, Unchanging Wisdom

The following attributes define Divinity
Jesus has all of these attributes:

God Is Faithful
God Is Good
God Is Just
God Is Merciful
God Is Gracious
God Is Loving
God Is Holy
God Is Glorious

In my view, which I believe to be Biblical, Jesus is the image of God in every way possible for a human man to perfectly represent the one true God. He is God. If you are interested, you can explore these attributes in greater detail either on line or in books on the subject.

 

[CadyandZoe]

To be honest I have no desire to interact with a poster that denies Jesus Christ as found in my Holy Bible

Your theology belongs in a forum for the cult of Jehovahs Witnesses, and I have no desire to hang out in their Kingdom Hall at this time

Jesus Is The Lord

Those who know the truth have nothing to fear.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Are we also "mighty God" because we "represent God"?



Explain yourself. You talk such gibberish.



This is talking about the Messiah who was born of a virgin. No one else was qualified to meet this lofty prediction. You expose yourself in your writings. You have lost all credibility on this board with your heresy and blasphemy.

For an explanation of my view of Deity, refer to my most recent posts.
You say that the Messiah was born of a virgin, and you are correct.
Anyone who truly believes that the Messiah was born of a virgin does not truly believe that he wasn't. God is self-existing and without origin. ; the messiah had a beginning he was born to a virgin.

Anyone who truly believes that Jesus grew in wisdom, Luke 2:52, does not truly believe that he didn't. God is perfect in his wisdom.

Anyone who truly believes that Jesus grew up from baby to man, does not truly believe that he didn't. God is immutable- he never changes. Jesus was not immutable -- he changed from being a baby to being a man.

Anyone who truly believes that Jesus had needs, food etc., does not truly believe that he didn't. God is self-sufficient - he has no needs. Jesus ate bread, he slept, he prayed, walked etc.

You get the picture?

 

[Truth7t7]

Okay, but I wonder if you understand the charges against me? If I may, I would like to help you by listing some of the essential attributes of Deity.

There can be only one Deity.
The following attributes are unique to Deity:

God Is Infinite – He is Self-Existing, Without Origin
God Is Immutable – He Never Changes
God Is Self-Sufficient – He Has No Needs
God is Omnipotent – He Is All Powerful
God Is Omniscient – He Is All-Knowing
God Is Omnipresent – He Is Always Everywhere
God Is Wise – He Is Full of Perfect, Unchanging Wisdom

The following attributes define Divinity
Jesus has all of these attributes:

God Is Faithful
God Is Good
God Is Just
God Is Merciful
God Is Gracious
God Is Loving
God Is Holy
God Is Glorious

In my view, which I believe to be Biblical, Jesus is the image of God in every way possible for a human man to perfectly represent the one true God. He is God. If you are interested, you can explore these attributes in greater detail either on line or in books on the subject.

You deny Jesus Christ is creator of all things, eternal Alpha/Omega from the beginning

Your teachings and beliefs belong in the cult of Jehovahs Witnesses forum

You can post again and again, you serve a Jesus that's not found in my Holy Bible, it's that simple

Jesus Is The Lord God Almighty, The Alpha And Omega

Mark 16:17KJV
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You deny Jesus Christ is creator of all things, eternal Alpha/Omega from the beginning

Your teachings and beliefs belong in the cult of Jehovahs Witnesses forum

You can post again and again, you serve a Jesus that's not found in my Holy Bible, it's that simple

Jesus Is The Lord God Almighty, The Alpha And Omega

Mark 16:17KJV
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

What if the Bible doesn't make the claims you are making?

 

[Truth7t7]

What if the Bible doesn't make the claims you are making?

You deny Jesus Christ is creator of all things, eternal Alpha/Omega from the beginning

Your teachings and beliefs belong in the cult of Jehovahs Witnesses forum

You can post again and again, you serve a jesus that's not found in my Holy Bible, it's that simple

Jesus Is The Lord God Almighty, The Alpha And Omega

Mark 16:17KJV
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.