Absolute truth - Do we know what it is?

[St. SteVen]

New topic:

Of what value is the fulfillment of OT prophecy? - since the prophecies were acquired rather than intended

This is a follow-up to the previous topic: Were messianic prophecies acquired, rather than intended? (in the original texts) https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/were-messianic-prophecies-acquired-rather-than-intended-in-the-original-texts.67180/ In the previous topic it was somewhat...

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[MA2444]

This is why I think it is a mistake to assume a person has to make a decision before they enter the afterlife.
There will an Age of Restoration where all this is sorted out. Jesus will not lose anyone.

We know that no one can come to God unless he draws them. We call these the Elect, predestined for life. (here and now)
What about everyone else? Those that God did not choose to draw to himself? Predestined to destruction?

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything,
as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Don't they call that, Universalism? do you think that one day everyone will get to choose door #1, door #2 or door #3?

Here you are with a good Angel on your shoulder and a bad Angel on the other shoulder whispering to you, and you are stuck in-between them and have to decide which one to listen to and instruct your feet to follow. Are you daft? Lol.

Some call them the two wolves who fight (Cherokee Proverb) and others may not have thought it through effectively? If you believe that one doesn't have to make a choice, then you might as well say, we are not responsible for our own actions. I sure can't wrap my head around that.

 

[St. SteVen]

Don't they call that, Universalism?

Yes.

do you think that one day everyone will get to choose door #1, door #2 or door #3?

No.

Everyone is already saved due to the completed work of the atonement.
The Age of Restoration is for evaluation/correction/restoration/redemption.

Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2 NIV
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

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[Windmill Charge]

Exactly.
Countless billions have gone to the afterlife with no knowledge of Jesus.
Christians consider them to be hell-bound haters of God. (pagans)

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No not Christians but God.
Romans1:
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

 

[Windmill Charge]

are you sure you are not already under the sway of what is known as social gospel .
Because just as men do they often twist things to fit an agenda .
My advice is , if you are heeding what is called the social gospel , RUN fast as ye can out of its grasp .
I warn against the prosperity gospel too , its false as well .
You can read . right . SO pick up the bible and start learning , GOD will work on those who cannot read .
YOU CAN . so no excuse . BIBLE UP friend .

Please explain how translating the bible into the language of an unreachable people group and supporting efforts to teach those people to read and write is the social gospel?

 

[Wick Stick]

Absolute truth - Do we know what it is?

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If your brain works like my brain works... then when you hear someone make a statement that is absolutely true, it kinda feels like being slapped in the face with a big wet fish.

It's like... 'oh yes, we're quite awake now... was it really necessary to do that to me?'

 

[amigo de christo]

Please explain how translating the bible into the language of an unreachable people group and supporting efforts to teach those people to read and write is the social gospel?

its not . what you just wrote is NOT what i am talking about friend .
But allow me to ask you a question . How do you view the lets find common ground of interfaith .

 

[Windmill Charge]

its not . what you just wrote is NOT what i am talking about friend .
But allow me to ask you a question . How do you view the lets find common ground of interfaith .

Yes it is. I posted about witclife translators and teaching people.e to read and you came back with warnings about the social gospel and the prosperity gospel.
Two things I had not mentioned.


Interfaith what do you mean?
On forums I will assume someone is a Christian untill they make it clear they are not or are confused.
As a church we will cooperate with other churches that share a common belief/faith.
As a ember of a prayer group for persecuted Christian we pray for those labelled "Christian" without delving into their creeds beliefs etc.

 

[amigo de christo]

Yes it is. I posted about witclife translators and teaching people.e to read and you came back with warnings about the social gospel and the prosperity gospel.
Two things I had not mentioned.


Interfaith what do you mean?
On forums I will assume someone is a Christian untill they make it clear they are not or are confused.
As a church we will cooperate with other churches that share a common belief/faith.
As a ember of a prayer group for persecuted Christian we pray for those labelled "Christian" without delving into their creeds beliefs etc.

and yet many cliam to hold a common belief and yet upon examination of their doctrines and actions
ITS VERY CLEAR the jesus they believe in AINT THE JESUS CHRIST of GOD .
Watch out for the harlot for she has come to unify her children and will unify the demoniations
and now even unify us with the false religoins . DOCTRINE MATTERS . TRUTH matters . GOD MATTERS .
IN FACT it ought to be GOD and HIS CHRIST WE LOVE FIRST ABOVE ALL , THEN our neighbor as ourself .
Ya better watch out friend . A harlot knows how to allure and to decieve and many be taken into her web
for they have sipped of her cup of what she calls love but is TOTAL FORNICATION AGAINST GOD .

 

[Windmill Charge]

and yet many cliam to hold a common belief and yet upon examination of their doctrines and actions
ITS VERY CLEAR the jesus they believe in AINT THE JESUS CHRIST of GOD .
Watch out for the harlot for she has come to unify her children and will unify the demoniations
and now even unify us with the false religoins . DOCTRINE MATTERS . TRUTH matters . GOD MATTERS .
IN FACT it ought to be GOD and HIS CHRIST WE LOVE FIRST ABOVE ALL , THEN our neighbor as ourself .
Ya better watch out friend . A harlot knows how to allure and to decieve and many be taken into her web
for they have sipped of her cup of what she calls love but is TOTAL FORNICATION AGAINST GOD .

Do you belong to a church?
Do you support any missionary organisations?
Do you interact with christian at a personal level meeting with them working with them, praying with them?

No Church is perfect, just as no christian organisation is perfe t and neither is any Christian.

So how do you pray for Christians facing death threats in Islamic countries, or Christians in Chi a facility g closure of there churches, imprisonment for attending services or what about North Korea where exposure to Christianity, possession of a bible mean a concentration camp.
How do you pray for these unknown Christians, many are orthodox, Catholic, pentecostal, baptist or Anglican.
Do you pray for them?

What about missionaries?do you support any with prayer, finance, letters etc despite there belonging to a different church h that you belong to?

 

[amigo de christo]

Do you belong to a church?
Do you support any missionary organisations?
Do you interact with christian at a personal level meeting with them working with them, praying with them?

No Church is perfect, just as no christian organisation is perfe t and neither is any Christian.

So how do you pray for Christians facing death threats in Islamic countries, or Christians in Chi a facility g closure of there churches, imprisonment for attending services or what about North Korea where exposure to Christianity, possession of a bible mean a concentration camp.
How do you pray for these unknown Christians, many are orthodox, Catholic, pentecostal, baptist or Anglican.
Do you pray for them?

What about missionaries?do you support any with prayer, finance, letters etc despite there belonging to a different church h that you belong to?

We correct any and all false doctrine and error . we pray for those who do True evangelism and not the ricky warren sold out stuff
We pray for all , we have fellowship with those who LOVE the LORD
and we correct any and all error within .
When it comes to leaven i want YOU to have the same mindset .
Watch this closely and take heed .
If a man cometh and says to me , HEY amigo if the doctrine is at least eighty percent right and twenty percent wrong . NO DEAL .
If a man cometh and says HEY amigo , what about only ten percent leaven . NO DEAL .
If a man cometh and says HEY amigo , come now what about just five percent leaven . NO DEAL .
In fact i say IF ONE WORD OF JESUS and THAT GOSPEL is omitted . NO DEAL .
for even a wee tiny bit of leaven sure can leaven UP the whole lump if it is not corrected and removed .
As far as a perfect church . WELL i already know no church is perfect my friend .
BUT THE DOCTRINE has TO BE perfect . And the pattern the CHURCH follows MUST align with the pattern
JESUS set and later the apostels set . IF anything be removed , NO DEAL .

 

[Windmill Charge]

We correct any and all false doctrine and error . we pray for those who do True evangelism and not the ricky warren sold out stuff
We pray for all , we have fellowship with those who LOVE the LORD
and we correct any and all error within .
When it comes to leaven i want YOU to have the same mindset .
Watch this closely and take heed .
If a man cometh and says to me , HEY amigo if the doctrine is at least eighty percent right and twenty percent wrong . NO DEAL .
If a man cometh and says HEY amigo , what about only ten percent leaven . NO DEAL .
If a man cometh and says HEY amigo , come now what about just five percent leaven . NO DEAL .
In fact i say IF ONE WORD OF JESUS and THAT GOSPEL is omitted . NO DEAL .
for even a wee tiny bit of leaven sure can leaven UP the whole lump if it is not corrected and removed .
As far as a perfect church . WELL i already know no church is perfect my friend .
BUT THE DOCTRINE has TO BE perfect . And the pattern the CHURCH follows MUST align with the pattern
JESUS set and later the apostels set . IF anything be removed , NO DEAL .

Interesting that you ignore the question do you belong to a church, do you support any missionary organisation or do you pray for persecuted Christians?

I wonder why?

 

[amigo de christo]

Interesting that you ignore the question do you belong to a church, do you support any missionary organisation or do you pray for persecuted Christians?

I wonder why?

i did answer . i said we do pray for all . we do have fellowship etc . you just dont like the NO deal part .
and i did say NO church is perfect , no christain etc . BUT THE DOCTRINE MUST BE .

 

[Lambano]

If that is true concerning absolute truth, then you should be able to answer these questions.

- What was God doing before he did this?
- Why did He do this?
- Was global genocide the best solution to the world in Noah's day?
- What are his long-term plans for us?
- What will he do next?

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Is it even appropriate to give that list the rather grandiose title of "ABSOLUTE TRUTH"? Or are those just questions that you'd like true answers to?

In time, brother. In time.

 

[Lambano]

Under the influence of some long-forgotten college bulls*** sessions...

An Eastern view of God is that God has Certain Knowledge of how things Really Are (i.e. Absolute Truth) independent of perceptual filters. This addresses St. SteVen's very valid concerns with Experiential Knowledge (Truth obtained through observation), i.e. that it requires faith in the perceptual apparatus.

Biblically (to preempt the objections of the usual suspects), God has Certain Knowledge because "In Him all things consist" (Colossians 1:17b) and "In Him we live, move, and have our being" (Acts17:28). In other words, God knows everything independent of perceptual filters because all things are in God and a part of God (i.e. God is "immanent" in His Creation.)

A traditional objection is that the God described in the Bible is holy and outside of His Creation (i.e. God is "transcendent"). A less nuanced objection from well-known Christian apologist C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity is, "Stop talking damned nonsense." (My all-time favorite C.S. Lewis quote.) "A cancer cell and a slum are not 'God'".

Can we have "Certain Knowledge" (or "Absolute Truth") independent of perceptual filters when Jesus comes back, when "we know we will be like Him" (1 John 3:2)? Probably should save that question for the "Theosis" threads.

 

[MA2444]

Under the influence of some long-forgotten college bulls*** sessions, an Eastern view is that God has Absolute Knowledge of how things Really Are (i.e. Absolute Truth) independent of perceptual filters (to address you concerns with experiential Truth). Biblically (to preempt the objections of the usual suspects), God has Absolute Knowledge because "In Him all things consist" (Colossians 1:17b) and "In Him we live, move, and have our being" (Acts17:28). In other words, God knows everything independent of perceptual filters because all things are in God and a part of God (i.e. God is "immanent".) A traditional objection is that God is holy and transcends His creation. A less nuanced objection from C.S. Lewis is "Stop talking damned nonsense." (My all-time favorite C.S. Lewis quote.) A cancer cell and a slum are not God.

Can we have "Absolute Knowledge" (or "Absolute Truth") independent of perceptual filters when Jesus comes back, when "we know we will be like Him" (1 John 3:2)?

Probably should save that question for the "Theosis" threads.

Good point. We all arguing about what is truth? Oh my truth is different than your truth. Blah blah blah. Mankind are such slow learners! And the reason for it is Demonic Oppression.

So when Jesus makes His 2nd Coming and puts evil down and binds satan for 1000 years with zero demonic oppression on the people. Without the demonic oppression, mankind could learn much faster! During the Millennial 1000 years that Jesus reigns on the earth, He's going to live with us here and show us how it was supposed to be if we hadn't fell.

He'll restore the earth too so it'll be like back in Eden again. And mankind wont be slow learners then because we wont be under all the demonic oppression!

Once satan is bound and mankind is not under demonic oppression I bet we will be amazed with the numbers of evil spirits and demons that were (are) here. I bet this earth is saturated with demons (and Angels).

 

[St. SteVen]

... independent of perceptual filters...

That seems key to me. (good post, thanks)

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[MatthewG]

No not Christians but God.
Romans1:
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

I believe it still remains true. That there are people who absolutely do not place their faith in God, nor seek him out. In Jesus day, the Pharisees sought to seek themselves above God, a lot of this pertained to them being of the blood line of Abraham. Which meant nothing, its heart that truly matters to Yahavah. And I do believe people who did not seek out God and didn’t want anything to do with him, will find themselves outside of the Kingdom of God…

I’m not the judge only God is the judge. He will give people what they want in the end of life, a life with him or a life without him.

“Blessed are those who wash their robes. They will be permitted to enter through the gates of the city and eat the fruit from the tree of life. Outside the city are the dogs—the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idol worshipers, and all who love to live a lie.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22‬:‭14‬-‭15‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Also founded in the days of Jesus, people believed in him but at the temple they couldn’t confess they believed in him. Why? Because they didn’t want to be kicked out of the temple. I believe that today there are churches still which state you must follow everything that they present and believe to be true or otherwise you’ll be excommunicated from that church.

I find it all fascinating, and amazing how much of it is a choice just like Adam and Eve where given a choice. Some people blame God for their problems and desire to run away from him.

“Then the LORD God called to the man, “Where are you?” He replied, “I heard you walking in the garden, so I hid. I was afraid because I was naked.” “Who told you that you were naked?” the LORD God asked. “Have you eaten from the tree whose fruit I commanded you not to eat?” The man replied, “It was the woman you gave me who gave me the fruit, and I ate it.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3‬:‭9‬-‭12‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Adam made a choice to blame God and the woman all in one breath.

I don’t see wrath as viable anymore due to I believe that poured out among Israel, either way, God is not at people if they want nothing to do with them. God even clothed Adam and Eve after the occurrence, by clothing them with clothes, and sending them out of the Garden.

“Then the man—Adam—named his wife Eve, because she would be the mother of all who live. And the LORD God made clothing from animal skins for Adam and his wife.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3‬:‭20‬-‭21‬ ‭NLT‬‬

 

[Behold]

The absolute truth is known to God, but is a mystery (unknown) to us.


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Jesus is the Absolute Truth.
He is known to every born again Christian.

 

[Behold]

This is why I think it is a mistake to assume a person has to make a decision before they enter the afterlife.

You just posted that its a mistake to Trust in Christ while you are alive.

So, that is leading people to Hell, if they do what you just told them to do.

If the Mods here were cognizant of what you are all about, then you'd have some issues.
But you are on a forum that just allows any Cross denying person to run rampant..

Could the Devil say it any better, then you just said it.....when he would tell people not to worry about being saved while they are on the earth".......So, He's in total agreement with you again @St. SteVen