A serious questions for the Jehovah's Witnesses on these threads.

[RR144]

The governing body, to us, are “the faithful and discreet slave”, (Matt 24:45) whom Jesus appointed to “feed” his household of fellow slaves, “their food at the proper time”.

That wasn't always the case. Although he never admitted to it, C.T. Russell NEVER claimed to be "That Servant". Shortly after his death, ALL anointed Christians were "the faithful and discreet slave". In fact the term Jehovah's Witnesses, was only applied to the anointed, then a few years ago, "the faithful and discreet slave" was reinterpreted to be ONLY the "Govern Body". What was taught 100 years ago, is not longer "Truth", what was taught 50 years ago, is no longer Truth, in fact what was taught 25 years ago is no longer "Truth". So what is it that your "faithful and discreet slave" is teaching you? If every few years they change their beliefs system? Jehovah is not a God of confusion. You mock Him with your flip flopping, and God is NOT one to be mocked!

This arrangement did not allow for the slaves being fed by this body to refuse certain food as unpalatable. Nor was it a buffet where you could serve yourself only what you liked. And it didn’t mean that they dished up the same tired menu day after day to be regurgitated and swallowed without ever being digested. All the food dispensed was “food at the proper time”...... IOW, we were told what we needed to know, when we needed to know it....”at the proper time”. This in itself does not allow for a stagnation in our beliefs, or something that the light of truth cannot further illuminate as the need arises.

And when do you as a professed Christian take responsibility for yourselves? For your beliefs? Or do you just say to yourselves, "Jehovah put these men in charge, my job is to obey them, and if they teach me error, Jehovah will seal with them, my job is to obey them."

Not everyone has a TV, radio or the internet and not everyone can read....that leaves a good portion of the world without a witness.
Jehovah’s Witnesses will traverse all terrains, in all parts of the world to reach isolated people with the message of the Kingdom. Videos are a major teaching tool now rather than the written word. Electronic devices now substitute in large measure as teaching tools instead of cumbersome and weighty books. Images convey so much more than words do.

Funny, because you're always pointing people to JW.org, AND you no longer print any new books.

The preaching work has a two fold purpose, as it did in Noah’s day. Peter calls Noah a “preacher of righteousness” (2 Pet 2:5) in a world where violence and immortality were the norm. If God already knew that only Noah and his family would eventually board the ark and be saved, what was the purpose of Noah’s preaching?

I think you mean immorality.

Not a soul could claim that they didn’t know what God was going to do, because no one told them.

So if Noah was building an ark, how could he preach to the whole world? Did he take weekends off to travel to China to preach whoever lived there?

“Just like the days of Noah”, Jesus said the time of his return would be. (Matt 24:37-39) How was that? “They took no notice until the flood came and swept them all away”, so it will be when the time of Christ’s judgment comes.
Noah’s warning was ignored and ridiculed and vilified......but we can only wonder what went through the minds of those who had an opportunity to save themselves.....and didn’t.
Today people have the same choice.....to accept the warning and act on it, or to ignore it and perish.....

and yet you admitted in previous discussions that ignorance is bliss. The time for them to know and understand is not now, to them you're just a voice crying in the wilderness "The end is coming" They'll learn what God did for them in the Kingdom age, and then after having full knowledge they will have to make a decision.

Case in point, why did Jesus speak in parables? Jesus answered "He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given." (Matthew 13:11) He said "not to them" who are the "them"? The world of mankind, because while Jesus was on earth he was gathering his body members, and 2,000 years later, He is still gathering HIs body members. Only at this end of the age, there are very few left. It's God who draws them to himself.

Romans 10:13-15
“For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” [Joel 2:32] 14 However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!”

You keep quoting all these scriptures, and yet as members of a class who have no standing with God, they don't apply to you. They apply to the spirit-begotten.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Well, I haven't been contacted in the seven years I've lived here, despite a Kingdom Hall a few miles away. I have been contacted by the Seventh-Day Adventist and Mormons.

Perhaps you were not at home when they did.....not their fault. Either that or they recognize you as an apostate and avoid you...? Have you ever been placed on a "do not call" list?
What about letters when covid took us away from the door to door work? We all wrote letters. You didn't get any? I have to wonder why?
I got a few myself from brothers and sisters in my own congregation who didn't recognize my address....

Good News eh? "Join us or die at Armageddon!" No thank you.

Good news for the faithful...bad news for the unfaithful and those who think that they can believe whatever they wish.
'Doing the will of the Father' is what gets us over the line....not just imagining that doing what you want is enough. Baptism is a commitment, like a marriage. Once you vow, you cannot take it back.
"Whenever you make a vow to God, do not delay to pay it, for he finds no pleasure in the stupid ones. What you vow, pay. 5 Better for you not to vow than to vow and not pay." (Eccl 5:4-5)

But I thought you don't follow men?

We follow our Lord Jesus, who has always used "men" to carry out his work, just like his Father always has. But we first have to discern which "men" are doing the job assigned to them.
We are told in Hebrews 13:17....
"Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you."

Who then are you obedient to? Who are your shepherds?

 

[Aunty Jane]

That wasn't always the case. Although he never admitted to it, C.T. Russell NEVER claimed to be "That Servant". Shortly after his death, ALL anointed Christians were "the faithful and discreet slave". In fact the term Jehovah's Witnesses, was only applied to the anointed, then a few years ago, "the faithful and discreet slave" was reinterpreted to be ONLY the "Govern Body". What was taught 100 years ago, is not longer "Truth", what was taught 50 years ago, is no longer Truth, in fact what was taught 25 years ago is no longer "Truth". So what is it that your "faithful and discreet slave" is teaching you? If every few years they change their beliefs system? Jehovah is not a God of confusion. You mock Him with your flip flopping, and God is NOT one to be mocked!

That is very deftly twist half truth...but whatever floats your boat....

And when do you as a professed Christian take responsibility for yourselves? For your beliefs? Or do you just say to yourselves, "Jehovah put these men in charge, my job is to obey them, and if they teach me error, Jehovah will seal with them, my job is to obey them."

Since we are to "obey those who take the lead" and "submit" to them, we had better make sure that they have proven trustworthy in what they have taught us as those who will have greater accountability.......so far they have been spot on in what they have told us about the times we are living in....and we are seeing the signs of Jesus' "parousia" very clearly.
We are also to preach one united message in all the world under their direction as the ones appointed by Jesus Christ to feed his entire "staff" (fellow slaves) on earth their "food at the proper time". As far as I can see, only Jehovah's Witnesses have preached one united message of the Kingdom "in all the inhabited earth" for over 100 years.

Funny, because you're always pointing people to JW.org, AND you no longer print any new books.

LOL...that is because we take our devices with downloaded videos and information that we can share with all we meet, no matter where they live. We have an entire library at our fingertips, ready to answer any and all questions pertaining to the scriptures...without the need to carry around heavy books.

I think you mean immorality.

Gotta love spellcheck....I once told my daughter that her nephew Jesse was coming to dinner....spellcheck changed his name to Jesus.....so we apparently had a very special guest coming.

So if Noah was building an ark, how could he preach to the whole world? Did he take weekends off to travel to China to preach whoever lived there?

Do you expect that people would not come and tell him what an idiot he was for building something so huge out in the middle of a cleared field? Perhaps he took time out to preach....? when he preached is not important....it's THAT he preached to the people that is the main thing.

and yet you admitted in previous discussions that ignorance is bliss.

Did I? I'm sure you are taking my words out of context.....in a judgement period like we are in right now....ignorance can no longer be offered as an excuse. There will be no bliss in the judgment.

Case in point, why did Jesus speak in parables? Jesus answered "He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given." (Matthew 13:11) He said "not to them" who are the "them"? The world of mankind, because while Jesus was on earth he was gathering his body members, and 2,000 years later, He is still gathering HIs body members. Only at this end of the age, there are very few left. It's God who draws them to himself.

We agree, that there are very few left because most of the elect are already in their places, ready to take over the rulership of mankind.
What will happen to those who are not of the elect then? The "great crowd" are attributing salvation to God and to the Lamb, but they are not part of the 144,000 who were chosen from among mankind. So who are the great crowd?

You keep quoting all these scriptures, and yet as members of a class who have no standing with God, they don't apply to you. They apply to the spirit-begotten.

The scriptures were written BY spirit-anointed Christians FOR spirit-anointed Christians, and yet God's standards apply to all equally. Jehovah does not have double standards. Those who survive the great tribulation on earth, have white robes on and these it says are 'washed and made white in the blood of the Lamb'. These are saved too and they become the nucleus of the "new earth" already proving their faith to God and his Christ through the greatest catastrophe in human history.

That wasn't always the case. Although he never admitted to it, C.T. Russell NEVER claimed to be "That Servant". Shortly after his death, ALL anointed Christians were "the faithful and discreet slave". In fact the term Jehovah's Witnesses, was only applied to the anointed, then a few years ago, "the faithful and discreet slave" was reinterpreted to be ONLY the "Govern Body". What was taught 100 years ago, is not longer "Truth", what was taught 50 years ago, is no longer Truth, in fact what was taught 25 years ago is no longer "Truth". So what is it that your "faithful and discreet slave" is teaching you? If every few years they change their beliefs system? Jehovah is not a God of confusion. You mock Him with your flip flopping, and God is NOT one to be mocked!

He never had to admit anything......he was feeding Christ's fellow slaves as were those who assisted him and his colleagues. They were preaching the message albeit in a limited way at that time. Progressive understanding was always employed by God, right from Eden. When his servants needed to know something, he informed them....even Jesus. (Matt 24:36) So the Faithful and discreet slave have been in existence since the first century. They are not a new group but a continuation of an old group in a new era.....just as the first Christians were.....these are the 'last days' of the present system of things....so people are running out of time to make their decisions.....once Jesus appears to judge the world, like the days of Noah, the door will be shut by God.

Its not 'flip flopping' but clarification of things only vaguely understood, becoming clearer.....you can believe whomever you wish.....I personally go on performance. Who has never heard of Jehovah's Witnesses? Now, by comparison, tell me who has heard of the Bible Students? And please provide their track record of faithful adherence to God's commands as regards the preaching work in all nations....are they hated and persecuted as Jesus said his true disciples would be? (John 15:18-21) How can people hate those they don't even know exist?

 

[Wrangler]

To whom did Jesus send his disciple out to preach? Wasn’t it those who already worshipped Jehovah? Yet, they were not worshipping him in truth. Jesus was there to set things straight so that those with the right heart would respond and act on what they heard.

IMO, this deserves its own thread.

Your question involves a bit of historicity. I'm reading a book right now The Admirals by Walter R. Borneman. The navy played war games for 20 years anticipating an attack by Japan. In the days before Pearl Harbor, there was an order to all units in the Pacific to be on high alert for a Japanese attack. (Most anticipated the attack in the Philippines, Singapore or Australia.)

In addition, the US did all it could to provoke Japan by putting a stranglehold on its oil supplies AND sending mercenaries into China, supporting Japan's enemy during a time of war. A movie released in early 1941 staring John Wayne called The Flying Tigers details that provocation. So, calling it an 'unprovoked and surprise attack' is only true if one completely ignores the historicity of the situation.

At one point Jesus only sent out his disciples to preach to those who already worshipped Jehovah. However, that's only before he sent them out to preach to the Gentiles. You cannot be the savior of the world while only saying a very small minority. Paul was specifically called by Christ to be the Apostle to the Gentiles. So, to assert or imply that already worshipping Jehovah is a prerequisite to come to salvation through Christ is a bit inaccurate.

 

[Wrangler]

No ongoing or progressive enlightenment leads to stagnation.

Only in the intellectual sense. A farmer must still till the soil and plant the seeds even when he has learned all that can be about the work to be done. Said differently, the practical work of the Great Commission does not stagnate due to one flat lining on the curve of intellectual understanding of Greek.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I expect all teh Witnesses will become mean Calvinists now!


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Well I am a staunch 5 pointer (though not in the Calvinist religion) So what is a mean Calvinist?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

And I will leave that there as the perfect example of what justification looks like.....you don’t have to answer to me.....just remember that.

It’s our choice as to what we actively, or even tacitly participate in, in this life. Those decisions will affect our whole future. “Faithful in what is least” will ensure that we are “faithful also in much”. (Luke 16:10)

All the3 verse3s you quote are wonderful and true. But your philosophy of why you judge people who honor others on the anniversary of their birth and making honoring them on that day sinful, or buying flowers and candy for spouses on valentines day sinful but any other day it is not, or celebrating the birth of Christ on 12/25 with the festive trimmings sinful, but doing it on any other is not, is demonically inspired and legalistic and not from Yahweh!

Once again on 2/14-honoring cupid is sin, honoring a loved one is not!
On a borthday, honoring a person is not sinful
On 12/25 celebrating the birth of Christ is not any more sin than on all the other 364 days of the year.

You have been indoctrinated in a grievous form of legalism and Pharisaic judgmentalism

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Your choice, but don't forget everlasting life is on the line for all. Satan has had 99% mislead ever since the fall in Eden. The only time maybe not was when Israel stood strong, but he got them to fall over and over. Even Solomon fell. He is the god of this system of things. Alls he has to do by transforming into an angel of light( him and his teachers) 2Cor 11:12-15) is get one to partake off the table of demons.1 Cor 10:21--and they will lose. Because God says-one CANNOT partake off his table if they partake off of that one. Yet billions are being mislead into trying both tables--Gods table counts 0 for them.

No everlasting life is based solely on one trusting in the death, burial and physical resurrection of Jesus from teh dead as the full and only satisfactory payment for their sins. Everything else is garbage. You cannot see the rich forest of God for the thorny Watchtower trees that have been planted in your mind!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

LOL...then why don't you choose your own days to honor those you love? Why celebrate with "the world" of which satan is its ruler? (1 John 5:19)
When the devil told Jesus that world rulership had been "delivered to him and he could give it to whomever he wished" (Luke 4:5-8) what do you suppose that meant as far as him deceiving the world that he controls and influences? Has he told you that borrowing pagan customs and false religious occasions is somehow OK with God? Scripture tells you otherwise...(2 Cor 6:14-18)....yet you still want to justify it. SMH.

What part of "don't touch" spiritually "unclean" beliefs and practices, do you not understand?

Why don't you answer my questions I ask? Why is it okay to give flowers and chocolates and dinners 364 days a year but it is sinful on one day? As I have repeatedly said, if you do it to honor Cupid or Eros it is most definitely idolatry but to show love to ones spouse-without thinking of any false god, you believe is sin? Please explain what makes honoring a spouse on that day sinful?

 

[BarneyFife]

Well I am a staunch 5 pointer (though not in the Calvinist religion) So what is a mean Calvinist?

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What is "the Calvinist religion?"
.

 

[BarneyFife]

is demonically inspired and legalistic and not from Yahweh!

You have been indoctrinated in a grievous form of legalism and Pharisaic judgmentalism

​

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.

 

[RR144]

Perhaps you were not at home when they did.....not their fault.

And yet, if Bible Students knocked on your door and you weren't home, that's our fault, right? You claim Bible Students have never knocked at your door, how do you know they didn't and you weren't home?

Either that or they recognize you as an apostate and avoid you...?

How can they recognize me as anything if they've never met me? As I said, I'm new to the area. moved here 7 years ago from the East Coast, they wouldn't know me from Adam.

Have you ever been placed on a "do not call" list?

How would I know?

What about letters when covid took us away from the door to door work? We all wrote letters. You didn't get any? I have to wonder why?
I got a few myself from brothers and sisters in my own congregation who didn't recognize my address....

Letters? What if I can't read? After all isn't that what you said previously about the importance of going door-to-door? No, never got a letter, at least not that I know of.

Good news for the faithful...bad news for the unfaithful and those who think that they can believe whatever they wish.
'Doing the will of the Father' is what gets us over the line....not just imagining that doing what you want is enough. Baptism is a commitment, like a marriage. Once you vow, you cannot take it back.
"Whenever you make a vow to God, do not delay to pay it, for he finds no pleasure in the stupid ones. What you vow, pay. 5 Better for you not to vow than to vow and not pay." (Eccl 5:4-5)

So what were you baptized for?

We follow our Lord Jesus, who has always used "men" to carry out his work, just like his Father always has. But we first have to discern which "men" are doing the job assigned to them.

We are told in Hebrews 13:17....
"Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you."

Who then are you obedient to? Who are your shepherds?

I'm obedient to Jesus, He knocked on my door (Rev. 3:20) and I answered. He invited me to run "toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God" (Phil 3:14) as He invited me to be His Witness, as all True Christians, are Witnesses of Jesus (Acts 1:8), those who have seen with the eye of vision, and especially those who have seen with the eye of faith. (John 20:29)

 

[Keturah]

Well I am a staunch 5 pointer (though not in the Calvinist religion) So what is a mean Calvinist?

So you are a staunch TULIP toter, did not know that !

 

[Keturah]

Today has made me decide NOT to watch this thread anymore.............& Ignore all the continually involved

 

[Keiw]

No everlasting life is based solely on one trusting in the death, burial and physical resurrection of Jesus from teh dead as the full and only satisfactory payment for their sins. Everything else is garbage. You cannot see the rich forest of God for the thorny Watchtower trees that have been planted in your mind!

See you should believe Jesus. John 17:3-- This means eternal life= Their knowing you( Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD and the one whom you sent forth Jesus Christ.-- If one doesn't know the Father as the only true God-they will lose. Funny the watchtower teaches that truth, yet you cut it down. Why? Because you do not listen to Jesus, the writers of the words in the watchtower do. Every single teaching he gave.

 

[RR144]

That is very deftly twist half truth...but whatever floats your boat....

Would you like quotes and references. Because I can definitely supply them

Since we are to "obey those who take the lead" and "submit" to them, we had better make sure that they have proven trustworthy in what they have taught us as those who will have greater accountability.......

That's a cop out and you know it. "It's not my fault, the men you gave me as shepherds deceived us, we were just following orders." When are you going to test your leaders?

so far they have been spot on in what they have told us about the times we are living in....and we are seeing the signs of Jesus' "parousia" very clearly.

Really? You guys don't even believe in the scriptural Parousia. (That's a discussion for another time)

We are also to preach one united message in all the world under their direction as the ones appointed by Jesus Christ to feed his entire "staff" (fellow slaves) on earth their "food at the proper time". As far as I can see, only Jehovah's Witnesses have preached one united message of the Kingdom "in all the inhabited earth" for over 100 years.

That's of course is your opinion, not based on facts.

Do you expect that people would not come and tell him what an idiot he was for building something so huge out in the middle of a cleared field? Perhaps he took time out to preach....? when he preached is not important....it's THAT he preached to the people that is the main thing.

I'm sure the locals did, but if it was a world wide flood, what about those on the other side?

Did I? I'm sure you are taking my words out of context.....in a judgement period like we are in right now....ignorance can no longer be offered as an excuse. There will be no bliss in the judgment.

Well you did say that those who never heard the good news would enter the Kingdom, that means people who never heard it will be there to finally learn. Now if you never knock on their door, they would be in the Kingdom.

So who are the great crowd?

https://www.christianityboard.com/blogs/the-little-flock-and-the-great-company.7880/

The scriptures were written BY spirit-anointed Christians FOR spirit-anointed Christians, and yet God's standards apply to all equally.

True, for instance there are standards given to the Nation of Israel, that Christians are not under obligation to follow, but they can still benefit from those standards.

Jehovah does not have double standards.

True, God has one standard, and He has people who are under those Standards. First it was the Nation of Israel, then later the Church class, and still later the world of mankind. The STANDARD is the same for all, it is only the applications that differ.

Those who survive the great tribulation on earth, have white robes on and these it says are 'washed and made white in the blood of the Lamb'. These are saved too and they become the nucleus of the "new earth" already proving their faith to God and his Christ through the greatest catastrophe in human history.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. As we see the Great Crowd as a heavenly class. See the link above. Don't worry, it was actually published by the Watch Tower in 1885, so you can read it LOL

He never had to admit anything......he was feeding Christ's fellow slaves as were those who assisted him and his colleagues. They were preaching the message albeit in a limited way at that time. Progressive understanding was always employed by God, right from Eden. When his servants needed to know something, he informed them....even Jesus. (Matt 24:36) So the Faithful and discreet slave have been in existence since the first century. They are not a new group but a continuation of an old group in a new era.....just as the first Christians were.....these are the 'last days' of the present system of things....so people are running out of time to make their decisions.....once Jesus appears to judge the world, like the days of Noah, the door will be shut by God.

Ah, so you believe in "apostolic succession".

Now, by comparison, tell me who has heard of the Bible Students? And please provide their track record of faithful adherence to God's commands as regards the preaching work in all nations....are they hated and persecuted as Jesus said his true disciples would be? (John 15:18-21) How can people hate those they don't even know exist?

Jehovah knows who are His. (2 Timothy 2:19) His disciples are known to him and unknown by the world. We are fools for Christ's sake (1 Cor. 4:10)

For the record Bible Students have been persecuted in the past. We have been banned in foreign countries. We were put in concentration camps, JW's are not the only ones who wore the purple triangle.

 

[RR144]

Its not 'flip flopping' but clarification of things only vaguely understood, becoming clearer.....

Okay, let's take the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah into consideration. I can understand if the Society taught they would be resurrection, and then later teach they will NOT be resurrected, we can say that was "new light". The first view was wrong and Jehovah through his slave class would correct it. But what if they changed it back to say they WILL be resurrected, then the first view was right, the Society was wrong and Jehovah corrected them to go back to the original view. But what do we say about the following?

Sodom and Gomorrah will be resurrected.

"Let me give you an illustration that will be forcible: The Sodomites. Surely if we find their restitution mentioned you will be satisfied. But why should they not have an opportunity to obtain eternal life as well as you or the Jew? They were not wicked in the proper sense, for they did not have law or much knowledge. True, they were not righteous, but neither were you when God gave you your opportunity. Christ's own words shall tell us that they are not as guilty in His sight as the Jews, who had more knowledge: "Woe unto thee Capernium, for if the mighty works which have been done in thee had been done in Sodom it would have remained unto this day." Thus Christ's own words teach us that they had not had their full opportunity. "Remember," Christ says of the Sodomites, that "God rained down fire and destroyed them all." So, if their restoration is spoken of, it implies their resurrection." Watchtower 1879 Jul 1 p.8​

"Thus our Lord teaches that the Sodomites did not have a full opportunity; and he guarantees them such opportunity." Studies in the Scriptures, Series I p.110​

This shows us clearly that the eternal fate of the Sodomites is not sealed. When we turn to the Word of the Lord through Ezekiel the Prophet, 16:46-63, we have abundant testimony that the Sodomites will not only be awakened from the sleep of death, but when awakened will be brought to a knowledge of God and to an opportunity of obtaining everlasting life, through The Messiah, by willing obedience. Watchtower 1913 Feb 1 p.45​

"The Scriptures distinctly tell us that the Israelites and the Sodomites will be sharers in that work of restoration, restitution." Watchtower 1920 Oct 15 p.316​

Sodom and Gomorrah will NOT be resurrected.

"Sodom and Gomorrah were reduced to complete desolation, from which there is no possibility of recovery; and so likewise the modern Moabites, Ammonites and Edomites shall be destroyed, and the place where they have inhabited shall be, as prophesied, "even the breeding of nettles, and saltpits, and a perpetual desolation." The religious-totalitarian rule and rulers,the commercial robbers and those who have defied Jehovah God and his Theocracy, shall perish for ever at the battle of Armageddon, as the prophecy declares." Watchtower 1941 p.367​

"The ancient destructions upon Noah’s contemporaries and Sodom and Gomorrah must be just as final, else how could they illustrate the one Peter was discussing?” Watchtower 1952 Jun 1 p.335​

​

"Similarly, Sodom did not endure its judgment day, had failed completely, and the Jews knew its fate was sealed. Their opinion of Sodom was the lowest possible. So when Jesus told them that it would be more endurable for utterly depraved Sodom than for these Jewish cities they got the powerful point. These Jewish cities had heard the warning and had seen powerful works; they had had their fair judgment trial and by their decision showed they were worthy of eternal destruction." Watchtower 1952 Jun 1 p.338​

"He was pin-pointing the utter impossibility of ransom for unbelievers or those willfully wicked, because Sodom and Gomorrah were irrevocably condemned and destroyed, beyond any possible recovery." Watchtower 1954 Feb 1 p.85​

Sodom and Gomorrah WILL be resurrected.

"As in the case of Tyre and Sidon, Jesus showed that Sodom, bad as it was, had not got to the state of being unable to repent … So the spiritual recovery of the dead people of Sodom is not hopeless" Watchtower 1965 Mar 1 p.139 (See also Watchtower 1965 Aug 1 p.479)​

Sodom and Gomorrah will NOT be resurrected.

"How will these, having been caught, be disposed of? Will they be preserved alive? Will they be killed and buried in Hades or Sheol, which is the common grave of dead mankind, from which resurrection is possible? No, these political organizations are slated to be “hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur.” This the Bible describes as the “second death.” (Rev. 20:14) It means the death from which there is no resurrection. They will be burned up root and branch, as completely gone forever as the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, which Jehovah God burned up by a rain of fire and sulphur from heaven, never to be rebuilt. It is destruction in Gehenna in which God destroys both body and soul (any right or possibility of living)." Watchtower 1967 Jul 1 p.409​

Sodom and Gomorrah will be resurrected.

"Moreover, God’s undeserved kindness and care are so great that he will bring back the people of Sodom by a resurrection, with opportunity to learn and turn around to the way of life, even as his Son stated." Awake 1974 Oct 8 p.20​

Sodom and Gomorrah will NOT be resurrected.

"Consequently, in addition to what Jude 7 says, the Bible uses Sodom/Gomorrah and the Flood as patterns for the destructive end of the present wicked system. It is apparent, then, that those whom God executed in those past judgments experienced irreversible destruction." Watchtower 1988 Jun 1 p.31​

Sodom and Gomorrah WILL be resurrected.

​

“This is also illustrated by what happened to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and their inhabitants. Jude indicated that these cities were everlastingly destroyed. (Jude 7; compare 2Pe 2:6.) However, Jesus’ words recorded in Matthew 10:15 show that at least some of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah will receive a resurrection.” Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 1 p.616 (Released Jun 17, 1988)​

""It will be more endurable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on Judgment Day than for that city." Sodom and Gomorrah were everlastingly destroyed as cities, but this would not preclude a resurrection for people of those cities." Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2 p.985​

Sodom and Gomorrah will NOT be resurrected.

"Some adjustments will be made in future printings of the Live Forever book. The only significant change is with regard to the Sodomites, on pages 178 and 179. This change appeared in the Revelation book, page 273, and in The Watchtower of June 1, 1988, pages 30 and 31. You may wish to note it in earlier printings that you have on hand." Kingdom Ministry 1989 Dec (US Edition) p.7​

"A definite indication is found at Jude 7, where we read that "Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them … are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire." Yes, the destruction of the gross sinners in those cities was eternal, as will be the destruction of the wicked at the end of the present system of things." Watchtower 1990 Apr 15 p.20​

"Those who are judged unworthy of a resurrection are pitched into “Gehenna,” or “the lake of fire.” (Matthew 5:22; Mark 9:47, 48; Revelation 20:14) Among these would be the first human pair, Adam and Eve, the betrayer Judas Iscariot, and certain ones who died when God executed judgment upon them, such as the people in Noah’s day and the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah." Watchtower 2005 Jul 15 p.31​

I think these will suffice. So tell me Jane, is this a flip flop, or is Jehovah uncertain, was there a short in the Holy Spirit? If these men can't make up their minds as to a simple subject as to the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, what else have they been wrong on?

 

[RR144]

Some resist the truth, being “completely corrupted in mind.” Furthermore, “wicked men and impostors . . . advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled.” Though such people are always learning, they never come to “an accurate knowledge of truth.”

And why is that? Do not the scriptures tell us that Satan has blinded the minds of the unbelievers? (2 Corinthians 4:4) Does not Satan transform himself into an angel of lights (2 Corinthians 11:14?)

 

[RR144]

Birthdays have been celebrated among nations for thousands of years. However, in the Bible there is not even a mention of a birthday that was celebrated by a servant of God.

If a birthday were a celebration accepted by God, wouldn't we know from the Bible the exact day of Jesus' birth?

Jehovah's Witnesses are not concerned with what the world celebrates, but with what pleases God or not. If you are not one of the Jehovah's Witness in the world, what do you care about what we do?

and while you don't concern yourselves with what the world celebrates, I'm sure you DON'T take advantage of all those holiday sales that the stores have.

 

[Aunty Jane]

That's a cop out and you know it. "It's not my fault, the men you gave me as shepherds deceived us, we were just following orders." When are you going to test your leaders?

Well, I don't know about your leaders, but the last time I looked, ours were sinful humans prone to making mistakes like anyone else. Look at the apostles and see that Christ doesn't expect perfection.....nor did God promise that scripture would be written after the first century.
The musings that my brothers have grappled with in the past have not been earth shattering issues, just tossing around ideas as they came up for discussion.
What we are to do, as Paul said was to comply with their direction, because they will render an account to God and Christ for the job that they have been assigned to do.......it doesn't make them perfect. (Heb 13:17)
There is no claim of infallibility and these "shepherds" are doing the best they can in their imperfect flesh. Surely you have to say the same about those who lead your own denomination...? How have you tested your own leaders?

You guys don't even believe in the scriptural Parousia. (That's a discussion for another time)

I would be interested to hear about that. What do the Bible Student think about Christ's "Parousia"?

That's of course is your opinion, not based on facts.

Its based on the fact that I have never met a Bible Student in person before in my whole life. I actually didn't know that they existed here.
And I have never, in 50 years of door to door witnessing, ever met one. Where are you witnessing "in all the inhabited earth"? (Matt 24:14)

As we see the Great Crowd as a heavenly class. See the link above. Don't worry, it was actually published by the Watch Tower in 1885, so you can read it LOL

Published in 1885???? Seriously you have no new light since the century before last? Kind of proves my point really.
Yes, we used to believe that but we have moved on in our understanding of many things.....progressive understanding is what God has always provided. There is no light on your path getting brighter (Prov 4:18).....you are stuck in the past with the teachings of one man.....the faithful slave is not one man....he never was.
Have you seen Russell's tombstone? He would roll over in this grave seeing it now......he would want it torn down, but its against the law to desecrate a grave......that is how far we have come. He wasn't right about everything either....he was creating a foundation that others built on. But you deny this, following the outdated teachings of one man who is now in heaven waiting for the finale, and fully informed now about what was yet to take place in the future.....the things he didn't get to write about.

Ah, so you believe in "apostolic succession".

Oh please.....its the "wheat and the weeds", remember? The "weeds" took over but the "wheat" never went away.

Jehovah knows who are His. (2 Timothy 2:19) His disciples are known to him and unknown by the world. We are fools for Christ's sake (1 Cor. 4:10)

You can't be a 'fool for Christ' if no one knows who you are.....Jehovah does indeed know who are his, but to become a "theatrical spectacle to the world, and to angels and to men", they have to know what you are doing in order to become such a 'spectacle'.

“It seems to me that God has put us the apostles last on exhibition as men appointed to death, because we have become a theatrical spectacle to the world, and to angels, and to men.” (1 Cor 4:9)

I can't let this one go.....LOL

and while you don't concern yourselves with what the world celebrates, I'm sure you DON'T take advantage of all those holiday sales that the stores have.

Since Israel were permitted to take all the spoils after a victorious battle against God's enemies, why would he prevent us from taking advantage of cheaper goods if we needed them? The spoils are from the defeated.....they are defeated from our perspective and their goods are there for the savings.

@RR144 the internet is messing up big time here at the moment, dropping in and out every few minutes so I will answer the other responses tomorrow if they can sort out the problem....its been doing this for the last 24 hours and its very frustrating.