A few shall be left

[ewq1938]

Notice people will still be "sinning and dying" after the new heavens an new earth....

The bible says no death in the NHNE:

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

So, that again shows how Revelation 20 has been a reality for a long time already. All of the things written in Revelation 20:6 have been true about Christ and for believers since the resurrection of Christ.

I fully understand what it means to be born again and be raised up a new man “spiritually” in Christ.
BUT the Rev. 20:6 resurrection of the physically dead in Christ is a future event that happens at the last trump at the last day.

So what you Amils are really saying is the first resurrection of the dead in Christ at the last trump at the last day has already taken place, which is FOOLISHNESS!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I fully understand what it means to be born again and be raised up a new man “spiritually” in Christ.
BUT the Rev. 20:6 resurrection of the physically dead in Christ is a future event that happens at the last trump at the last day.

I do not claim that the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ doesn't happen at the last trump at the last day. So, it's clear that you just don't understand Amil for whatever reason. To claim that something you don't even understand is false makes no sense. Why don't you put more effort into understanding it first before making that determination?

So what you Amils are really saying is the first resurrection of the dead in Christ at the last trump at the last day has already taken place, which is FOOLISHNESS!

No, were are NOT saying that! When have you see an Amil ever say that? NEVER! Only a full preterist would say that. Of course we believe that the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the last trump at the last day when Christ returns. We say that all the time! You are either a liar or you have no reading comprehension skills. Which is it?

You are being FOOLISH by misrepresenting what we believe! I explained it in detail, but you clearly have no interest in making more than a minimal effort to understand what we believe and that's a reflection of laziness and FOOLISHNESS on your part.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

The bible says no death in the NHNE:

.

There is no more death for God’s immortal saints During the thousand year reign. But mortals can still die during this thousand years.

Isaiah 65:17-20

King James Version

​

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.”

Isaiah 66:20-24

King James Version

​

20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

I do not claim that the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ doesn't happen at the last trump at the last day. So, it's clear that you just don't understand Amil for whatever reason.

You said what you believe right here…
Spiritual Israelite said:
“So, that again shows how Revelation 20 has been a reality for a long time already”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is no more death for God’s immortal saints During the thousand year reign. But mortals can still die during this thousand years.​

​

Isaiah 65:17-20​

​

King James Version​

​

​

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.”

Isaiah 66:20-24​

​

King James Version​

​

​

20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

This is ridiculous. John did not say that only immortals won't die once the new heavens and new earth are ushered in. He said there will be no more death at that point. Period! You are making Revelation 21:1-4 say what you want it to say. The thousand years and new heavens and new earth are not the same. How can you think that what is described in Revelation 20:7-9 could happen on the new earth? Nonsense!

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Scripture says the new heavens and new earth will be a place "wherein dwelleth righteousness". Period. YOU say the new heavens and new earth will be a place wherein dwelleth righteousness AND wickedness. You contradict Peter. Surely, he didn't say it will be a place "wherein dwelleth righteousness" if it also will be a place where wickedness dwells. What would even be his point in saying it's a place "wherein dwelleth righteousness" in that case? It would mean nothing in that case if it's also a place where wickedness dwells.

2 Peter 3:

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You said what you believe right here…
Spiritual Israelite said:
“So, that again shows how Revelation 20 has been a reality for a long time already”

It started being a reality a long time ago is what I meant. If you actually read everything I said, you would know that's what I meant. People spiritually have part in the first resurrection every day and that occurs every day throughout the symbolic thousand years that began around the first coming of Christ and continues until a short time (little season) before His second coming. Obviously, I'm not claiming that the thousand years symbolically represents only one day.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

You are making Revelation 21:1-4 say what you want it to say.

Nope, Rev 21 is not talking about the thousand year reign. Rev 21 events happen after Rev 20 events, pay attention.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

It started being a reality a long time ago is what I meant.

You Amils believe this….
Spiritual Israelite said:
“So, that again shows how Revelation 20 has been a reality for a long time already”

That is why your understanding into the “timeline of prophecy”is so messed up.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nope, Rev 21 is not talking about the thousand year reign. Rev 21 events happen after Rev 20 events, pay attention.

Yes, I agree with that. Did you think otherwise? LOL. You are the one who is implying that because of how you interpret Isaiah 65:17-25. You contradict yourself. You say that Isaiah 65:17-25, which is about the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth, refers to the thousand years time period and then also say that Revelation 21, which also is about the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth, happens after the thousand years. I think you need to make up your mind about when you believe the new heavens and new earth are ushered in since you say it will happen both at the beginning of the thousand years and after the thousand years, which is complete nonsense.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You Amils believe this….
Spiritual Israelite said:
“So, that again shows how Revelation 20 has been a reality for a long time already”

That is why your understanding into the “timeline of prophecy”is so messed up.

Has Christ not been reigning for a long time already? He most certainly has. Have believers not been priests of God and of Christ for a long time already? They most certainly have. So, YOUR understanding of the timeline of prophecy is messed up. You don't allow what scripture teaches as a whole to guide your interpretation of Revelation 20. Instead, you interpret Revelation 20 in isolation and mess up the rest of scripture by making it say what you want it to say according to your messed up interpretation of Revelation 20.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

You contradict yourself. You say that Isaiah 65:17-25, which is about the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth, refers to the thousand years time period and then also say that Revelation 21, which also is about the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth, happens after the thousand years. I think you need to make up your mind about when you believe the new heavens and new earth are ushered in since you say it will happen both at the beginning of the thousand years and after the thousand years, which is complete nonsense.

Not at all, if the second coming of Christ and the end time harvest is known as “the end of this world” so then what world comes after that? This present world is going to be cleansed by fire as the old world was in the days of Noah that was cleansed by water and perished.

2 Peter 3:6
Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

God didn’t make a new earth after the flood, it was renewed by the cleansing of water.
God said He would never remove the foundations of this earth, so the present earth is going to be given a face lift if you will, and will be renewed by fire.

Psalm 104:5
Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

You don't allow what scripture teaches as a whole to guide your interpretation of Revelation 20. Instead, you interpret Revelation 20 in isolation and mess up the rest of scripture by making it say what you want it to say according to your messed up interpretation of Revelation 20.

That is exactly what YOU are doing. Lol

By saying Rev. 20 is already fulfilled when Jesus was resurrected it throws off your understanding into the millennial reign of Christ on earth with His resurrected saints.

That is why you say we are reigning now, and that the thousand years is just symbolic because almost two thousand years have already passed since Jesus was resurrected. So you try to cover up your first error with another error.

One lie leads to another, then to another, then to another, and so on.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not at all,

Really? Is the new heavens and new earth referenced in Isaiah 65:17-25 a different new heavens and new earth referenced in Revelation 21:1-4. No. Yet, you make it that way by saying that there will be death on the new earth described in Isaiah 65:17-25 while Revelation 21:4 clearly says there shall be no more death on the new earth. You can't get around this. Stop denying the obvious of what John taught about the new heavens and new earth.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

In your understanding of the new earth, the first earth has not yet passed away as John said would be the case when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in. In your view, the former things (death, sorrow, crying, pain) are not passed away because you still have those things occurring on the new earth, but John said they will be passed away when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in.

if the second coming of Christ and the end time harvest is known as “the end of this world” so then what world comes after that? This present world is going to be cleansed by fire as the old world was in the days of Noah that was cleansed by water and perished.

For one thing, you need to start making use of Hebrew and Greek resources to help you understand what exactly is being said in scripture in cases like this. When Jesus spoke of the end of this world, He was referring to the end of this "aion", which in other translations is translated as "age" instead of "world". I prefer that translation of the word because it avoids getting it confused with the "kosmos" which is also translated as "the world" in the KJV. The "kosmos" refers to the earth and the "aion" refers to this temporal age that we're living in while we wait for the eternal age to come (Luke 20:34-36). Regardless, the return of Christ will bring an end to both this "aion" and the "kosmos" as we know it.

How many unbelievers survived the flood? None. So, why do you have any unbelievers surviving His second coming? What exactly would allow any unbelievers to survive? What would be different about them compared to those who are destroyed when He comes?

2 Peter 3:6
Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

God didn’t make a new earth after the flood, it was renewed by the cleansing of water.
God said He would never remove the foundations of this earth, so the present earth is going to be given a face lift if you will, and will be renewed by fire.

Psalm 104:5
Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

I agree. You made an assumption about what I believe without even asking me. I believe that Jesus will renew the earth by fire when He comes and that will result in the new earth where only righteousness will dwell (2 Peter 3:13) and where there will be no more death (Rev 21:4).

Scripture teaches that the meek shall inherit the earth (Matt 5:5). I certainly don't think it would make sense that they would inherit the earth only temporarily. I believe we will inherit this earth, after it is renewed by fire, for eternity.

Just as is the case with premil, not all amils believe everything exactly the same. Some amils and some premils believe this earth will be annihilated and replaced with an entirely new earth, but I don't see it that way and see it the way you do instead. But, we disagree on the timing of the ushering in of the new earth, obviously.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is exactly what YOU are doing. Lol

LOL is right. What a ridiculous accusation. You can't be serious. I do NOT interpret the rest of scripture based on how I interpret Revelation 20. That is ridiculous. I'm constantly showing how I understand Revelation 20 based on what scripture teaches as a whole.

By saying Rev. 20 is already fulfilled when Jesus was resurrected it throws off your understanding into the millennial reign of Christ on earth with His resurrected saints.

Are you purposely trying to misrepresent my view? What is wrong with you? I have corrected you on this multiple times, so I can only conclude that you are a liar! You are purposely lying about what I'm saying. And you think you don't ever sin? LOL! Let me clue you in on something. Lying is a sin. Stop lying about what I believe! I do NOT say that Revelation 20 is already fulfilled! I say it began to be fulfilled with Christ's resurrection and has an ongoing fulfillment from then until the second coming of Christ. And you know this because I have said so. You took one thing I said where I wasn't clear in what I meant and try to say that I was saying Revlation 20 was completely fulfilled when Jesus was resurrected. I clarified what I meant and you still try to say that is what I believe which is a lie!

That is why you say we are reigning now, and that the thousand years is just symbolic because almost two thousand years have already passed since Jesus was resurrected. So you try to cover up your first error with another error.

Nonsense! I didn't make an error, I simply didnt completely clarify what I was saying. And then when you questioned it, I clarified it for you. Why won't you accept that? By seeing the thousand years as symbolic does not mean I'm saying it's fictional. It has a beginning and an end. I just don't see it as a literal thousand years. Are you somehow not aware that the word "thousand" is used figuratively in scripture several times, including when it talks about God keeping His covenant to "a thousand generations" (Deut 7:9) and where it talks about Him owning the cattle upon "a thousand hills" (Psalm 50:10)?

One lie leads to another, then to another, then to another, and so on.

What lie are you talking about? Saying something that wasn't clear about what I believe is not a case of lying. You apparently don't even know what a lie is. You are the liar! You are the one who purposely misrepresents my view repeatedly. I have to conclude that it's on purpose at this point since I have explained my view in detail many times to you at this point. I don't misrepresent yours. You try to hold it against me that I said something that didn't fully and clearly represent my view as if I shouldn't have any chance to clarify what I meant? You are a graceless, merciless liar!

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Really? Is the new heavens and new earth referenced in Isaiah 65:17-25 a different new heavens and new earth referenced in Revelation 21:1-4. No. Yet, you make it that way by saying that there will be death on the new earth described in Isaiah 65:17-25 while Revelation 21:4 clearly says there shall be no more death on the new earth. You can't get around this.

So when there seems to be a contradiction between Isaiah 65:17-25 and Rev. 21 what do you do? Do you disregard that Isaiah says death is still present during the new heaven and new earth mentioned there in order to remove what seems to contradict Rev. 21?

Both Isaiah and Rev. Are true, so one does not cancel out the other. In order for both to be true, Isaiah 65:17-25 must be speaking of the thousand year reign and Rev. 21 is speaking of AFTER the thousand year reign.

In this you will find both Isaiah 65:17-25 and Rev. 21 are both true without contradiction.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So when there seems to be a contradiction between Isaiah 65:17-25 and Rev. 21 what do you do? Do you disregard that Isaiah says death is still present during the new heaven and new earth mentioned there in order to remove what seems to contradict Rev. 21?

No, I don't do that. You disregard what Revelation 21:4 says. I recognize that it makes no sense to conclude that Isaiah 65:20 is talking about people literally dying on the new earth (a 100 year old child?) and Isaiah was describing eternity in a figurative way that his readers, who had no real concept of eternity back then, could understand. The previous verse talks about no more weeping and crying at that time, just like Revelation 21:4, and it's ridiculous to think there would be a time when people wouldn't mourn the death of loved ones.

Both Isaiah and Rev. Are true,

Of course they are! We both believe that. It's not as if one of us believes that and the other doesn't, so don't waste time as if that were the case. The difference is that I believe the NT scriptures shine light on the less clear OT scriptures. I can give many examples in the NT that clarify the meaning of OT scriptures.

so one does not cancel out the other.

Who said they did? Not me. You waste so much time arguing with your strawman.

In order for both to be true, Isaiah 65:17-25 must be speaking of the thousand year reign and Rev. 21 is speaking of AFTER the thousand year reign.

That is your opinion, but it makes no sense whatsoever. John obviously understood that the new heavens and new earth would be ushered in AFTER the thousand years, but your interpretation of Isaiah 65:17-25 contradicts that. If what you were saying about Isaiah 65:17-25 was true then John would not have indicated that the new heavens and new earth would be ushered in AFTER the thousand years. Your view on this is completely nonsensical, illogical and unreasonable.

In this you will find both Isaiah 65:17-25 and Rev. 21 are both true without contradiction.

Not according to how you interpret them. Your view causes them to contradict each other because you have one of them saying there will be death on the new earth and the other one very clearly says there will be no more death when the new earth is ushered in. You are not recognizing that Isaiah 65:20 is figurative text. Who ever heard of a 100 year old child? Clearly, Isaiah was not being literal in that verse. Referring to a child as being 100 years old is a reflection of how no one will age during eternity.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

I recognize that it makes no sense to conclude that Isaiah 65:20 is talking about people literally dying on the new earth (a 100 year old child?) and Isaiah was describing eternity in a figurative way that his readers, who had no real concept of eternity back then, could understand.

So in order to make Isaiah 65:20 “fit” into the Amil doctrine the death mentioned there “must be” figurative just like a thousand years “must be” figurative in order to make it “fit” the Amil false doctrine timeline. And now according to you eternity “must also be”figurative because people back then could not grasp the meaning of eternity? ROFL!!!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So in order to make Isaiah 65:20 “fit” into the Amil doctrine the death mentioned there “must be” figurative just like a thousand years “must be” figurative in order to make it “fit” the Amil false doctrine timeline. And now according to you eternity “must also be”figurative because people back then could not grasp the meaning of eternity? ROFL!!!

ROFL!!!! Are you so naive that you think I can't say something similar about your view?

In order to make Revelation 21:4 fit into the Premil doctrine you have to resort to saying that Revelation 21:1-4 occurs after the thousand years while Isaiah 65:17-25 happens during the thousand years despite the fact that both of them are about the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth. ROFL!!!

How can the new heavens and new earth be ushered in both at the beginning of the thousand years and AFTER the thousand years? What a messed up doctrine. It's completely nonsensical. ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And, you noticeably didn't respond to what I said about this verse.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So, which of your new earths is this referring to? The Isaiah 65:17-25 one or the Revelation 21:1-4 one? ROFL!!!! It can't be referring to the thousand years since wickedness will also dwell there. So, I guess you would say this is referring to your second new heavens and new earth that follows your thousand years new heavens and new earth? ROFL!!!

Let me know if you ever decide which new heaven and new earth you believe in because there's only one new heaven and one new earth. You need to decide if people will die on the new earth or not. You can't have it both ways like you do now by having the timing of Isaiah 65:17-25 different than the timing of Revelation 21:1-4.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

And, you noticeably didn't respond to what I said about this verse.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

When does this present heaven and earth pass away?????

2 Peter 3:5-14

King James Version

​

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.”

If you will notice in the above the heavens and earth that are now is shall be dissolved when “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night”

So when does the Lord come as a thief in the night? Before Rev. 20 and 21 or after?

The day of the Lord comes BEFORE Rev. 20 and 21.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-3

King James Version

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2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

Revelation 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.