A few shall be left
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
How does this address my question relating to Isaiah 65:17-25 and Revelation 21:1-4?
Anyway, I agree with what you said here.
So, notice what happens at that point:
Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Matthew 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. 49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
So, this shows both the righteous (saved) and wicked (lost) being judged at the same time at the end of the world (Greek: aion). Don't you have them being judged 1,000+ years apart? Is there any difference between "them which do iniquity/the wicked" being cast into the furnace of fire and those whose names are not written in the book of life being cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15)?
Also, notice that at that point Jesus said "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father".
Since He calls it "the kingdom of their Father" at that point when He comes at the end of the world, this suggests that 1 Cor 15:22-28 will be fulfilled at that point.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
The reason it is called "the kingdom of their Father" once Jesus comes at the end of this world is because Jesus will "have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father" at that point. Agree?
1 Corinthians 15:42
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1 Corinthians 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Both the dead and living in Christ are judged at that time, BUT only the physically alive wicked are judged at that time and go directly into the fire at the last day of this world.
The REST of the physically dead wicked are not judged until AFTER the thousand years is complete.
What mortals and wicked survives the wrath of God being poured out when Christ comes? What qualification is required to survive the wrath of God and enter the new earth?
Psalm 10:30 says, “The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth."
What earth is the Psalmist talking about? An impending earth that only the righteous can inherit. The wicked are not qualified to inherit the new glorified earth and the perfect age to come. That is because one needs to be glorified to inherit a glorified environment.
Psalm 25:12-13 says: “What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose. His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.”
The glorified saints are said to inherit the earth. This is assuredly talking about a new glorified earth, not this current corrupt arrangement that they have just departed. Their inheritance is not another period of corruption, rebellion and despair. They have just escaped that. The promised earth in view is actually depicted as a reward for the faithful. It cannot therefore be shared with the wicked.
Psalm 37:9-11 says, “For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.”
This is a truth that is repeated clearly and unambiguously throughout both Testaments.
Psalm 37:22 says, “For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.”
Psalm 37:28-36 continues, “For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever ... Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.”
Here, “evildoers” and “the wicked” are synonymous titles that refer to the unrighteous whereas the designations “those that wait upon the LORD,” “the meek” and “His saints” refer to the righteous.
Christ confirmed this in Matthew 5:5 saying, “Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.”
The meek alone possess the new earth – those that have been redeemed by His precious blood. The meek are the glorified believers. They are the antithesis of the wicked. There are only ever 2 peoples. The meek alone possess the new earth - those that have been redeemed by His precious blood.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
How are you determining that it's only the physically alive wicked being judged when Christ returns? Who are these wicked people exactly and how do they survive His return?
2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Would you agree that Jesus will be destroying "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" when He comes again? If so, aren't them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" the wicked? If so, how do any of the wicked survive His coming in light of what passages like 2 Thess 1:7-10? What is the difference between these wicked survivors that you believe are the only ones judged at that time and the ones who Christ destroys when He comes?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I had made the point in the post you responded to that since Jesus indicated that at the end of the world (age) when He comes "the righteous shall shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father" (Matt 13:40-43). I indicated that would mean "the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father" (1 Corinthians 15:24) will occur when Jesus comes since Jesus indicated that it will be "the kingdom of their Father" at that point. Do you agree with that?
Because the first resurrection is to the dead in Christ.
1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Have you ever wondered why the body of the beast is cast ALIVE into the lake of fire?
Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
But the rest of the DEAD wicked are cast in later.
Revelation 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
No, according to scripture, the first resurrection was Christ's resurrection.
Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Next in order after the first resurrection (Christ's resurrection) are "they that are Christ's at his coming". A first resurrection implies a second resurrection. The order Paul gave was Paul's first and then next in order is "they that are Christ's at his coming", which makes that resurrection the second resurrection, not the first.
Having part in the first resurrection, which results in the second death no longer having power over you (Revelation 20:6), is to spiritually have part in Christ's resurrection as passages like the following talk about:
Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
This is an example of how you interpret scripture out of context. The dead in Christ rising first is not a reference to the order of resurrections, it's a reference to the order of events as they relate to believers when Jesus comes. After He descends from heaven, what will happen first is the dead in Christ will be resurrected. Then, those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with the resurrected dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air.
I don't see that as having any relevance to this particular discussion. Do you imagine that the beast and false prophet are human beings? They are not. Do you not know that the beast existed before John wrote the book of Revelation? He said the beast "was, is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit" (Revelation 17:8). So, if the beast was a man he is at least around 2,000 years old by now.
No, prophetic beasts are kingdoms.
Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Why are you referring to the rest of the DEAD in relation to the beast and false prophet after talking about them being alive? The rest of the dead refer to unbelievers who are dead in contrast to the dead believers that John referred to previously in verse 4.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
That's a vague answer. Please give a more specific answer if you want to be taken seriously.
2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Please tell me how you interpret this passage. You have Jesus NOT taking vengeance on few "that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ", right? Was Paul somehow not aware of that? Why wouldn't he have mentioned that?
Please stop avoiding this question: What is it about the wicked who you think will survive His coming that will allow them to survive? In other words, what is it about them that is different from those who will be destroyed at that time? Please address this. I can't take you seriously about there supposedly being mortal unbelieving survivors of His second coming unless you can explain how that can be the case. Just saying "God's mercy and grace" is not sufficient. Is His mercy and grace random? No. If you don't know why few would survive and the rest will be killed, just say so.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Why wouldn't the judgment of the physically alive wicked be referenced anywhere in the book of Revelation? You believe the judgment of everyone else is referenced in the book, right? Why wouldn't the judgment of the physically alive wicked be referenced somewhere in the book as well?
Do you think John was mistaken when indicating that time of the dead being judged will be at the time of the sounding of the seventh trumpet, keeping in mind that the dead are judged AFTER the thousand years (Revelation 20:11-15)?
Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Do you agree with John that the seventh trumpet will signal "the time of the dead, that they should be judged"?
Sorry that is a fail because the saints were not judged at that time. Do you suppose these “beheaded” saints who were once witnesses for Jesus on earth are of the first resurrection, being they were “dead”in Christ, like Paul said would be raised FIRST?
Revelation 20:4-6
King James Version
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Yes, the dead in Christ are raised FIRST to judgement. But the rest of the physically dead are judged later at the white throne judgment.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
What are you talking about? No saints will be judged until Jesus returns. My doctrine does not say otherwise. You should try talking to me instead of your strawman.
Talk about a fail. Wow. Why do you take Paul out of context? When he said the dead in Christ would be raised first he was not referring to the first resurrection. Where do you see that context in 1 Thess 4:14-17? It's not there at all. You are making it say what you want it to say. The context of the dead in Christ being raised first in that passage is in relation to what happens to believers after Jesus descends from heaven. The first thing to happen at that point is that the dead in Christ are resurrected. Next, the resurrected dead in Christ are gathered together with those who are alive and remain and then they are all caught up together to meet Christ in the air. That is the context of the dead in Christ being resurrected first. You are changing the context of that verse to fit your doctrine, which is unacceptable.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
What you're saying is based on doctrinal bias. The text itself (Revelation 11:15-18) indicates no such thing. If you looked at this objectively, when would you think the time of the dead being judged would be? Any objective person would see the time of the dead being judged being described here:
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46 make it very clear that all people, saved and lost, will be judged at the same time.
Right, but you said this is the first resurrection of the dead in Christ….
Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
At the first resurrection of the dead in Christ the saints are judged, so Acts 26:23 is not talking about the first resurrection and judgment of the dead in Christ at the last day.
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