A few shall be left

[VictoryinJesus]

Amillennialism is the truth and is overwhelmingly supported by scripture which explicitly teaches that Christ has been reigning since His resurrection (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:19-23, Col 1:12-13, Rev 1:5-6),

Where did you go? I wasn’t sure what Amillennialism is. I had to Google it. Two things they said are critical to understand “that makes Amillennialism the truth”.

To me it’s what has already been in discussion on this thread concerning “I come as a thief”…interesting is they asked for a thief to be released over asking for Jesus Christ to be set free.

Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will you that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ?(a good question for us.) For he knew that for envy they had delivered him. When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have you nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him. But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus. The governor answered and said unto them, Whether of the two will you that I release unto you? They said, Barabbas. (A good thing to reflect on…do we say release unto us “Barabbas!”)

Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified. Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common hall, and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers. And they stripped him(as a thief!), and put on him a scarlet robe.

Trying to help you see the angst I see in whom people say is the thief coming in the night. Where He said to be sober and awake so that the thief doesn’t overcome you.

Their (Amillennialist) two significant reasons as to why it’s “Amillennialism” has the truth:
Matthew 12:29…how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless you first bind the strong man? Then indeed you may plunder his house?
To me men bind the strong man and plunders his house to destroy them as a thief in the night. Yet One comes which is stronger, Christ comes, to save men from those things they have trusted in that are not able to save them, their armour of darkness …so that they may put on the Armour of Light. Consider the verse
Hebrews 10:34 For you had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that you have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. (An enduring and better substance where no thief approaches or steals it from you.) —see their house is plundered and they take it joyfully calling “it good.” What “plunder” do the proud men steal away in the night and divide the plunder among themselves? It is NOT the Armor of Light they plunder but instead “they spoil your goods”. They divide the dung they stole from you, which becomes “those things they trust in”. paul probably could relate well in what happened with Stephen. As Paul later spoke of the dung that he lost, the plunder which he took joyfully having it spoiled…to be found in Christ. A much more enduring substance. Crazy Paul started seeing what Stephen had seen.

Amillennialism say: He first overcomes satans opposition. “Fear not for He who is within you …is stronger than he who is in the World”
That death be swallowed up in Victory when That which without and is weak and beggarly and leads death ..is swallowed up of Life within.

Do we ask for Christ to be released? Or the thief …Barabbas? Do we call Jesus Christ Barabbas and Barabbas Christ? The thief comes to steal, kill and destroy. Christ comes so that they may have life and have it more abundantly. Again …you take joyfully the spoiling (plundering) …that to me mean the thief has already come in the night but what men meant for harm, God meant it for good. That you be prepared and ready having that substance which is able to stand and not be overcome by the thief.

Amillennialism says significant is “casting out the ruler of this world. (John 12:31) now the ruler of this world be cast out.

Revelation 20 “that he might not deceive the nations no more” …here’s the crucial one (Imo). It is our man made doctrines that deceive the nations. we say “that he might not deceive the nations no more” …it is us who should hope we deceive not the nations anymore. As deceivers, Yet true. as poor, but making many rich. As unknown, yet well known. As possessing nothing, yet making many rich. Do you hear that? It’s when we stop going out to deceive others …that Revelation 20 “that he not deceive the nations no more” becomes a reality. When we stop trying to deceive the nations with our prideful and trusted theologies. That is what we all claim …you, @Stewardofthemystery and me …we say we have the truth and are not deceiving anyone anymore. So we are claiming this already “that he not deceive the nations no more” in our saying “we are not going out to deceive the nations anymore.” don’t we all hope we do not go out and deceive others no more?

I’m weary of anyone who waits for Christ to come in the end as a thief in the night. To me it’s the opposite where Christ comes “beforehand” to prepare against the thief. Vital to me is Paul’s teaching on not destroying a weak brother for who Christ died for …instead to strengthen your brother in edification and growth of the weaker brothers, as helpers, building up of Faith in Christ, as helpers with Faith, not as Lords over the heritage of God…but so that they may endure and be not overcome by the thief in the night. “Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Where did you go?

Nowhere. Why do you ask?

I wasn’t sure what Amillennialism is. I had to Google it.

So, now you have an opportunity to learn something new.

Two things they said are critical to understand “that makes Amillennialism the truth”.

To me it’s what has already been in discussion on this thread concerning “I come as a thief”…interesting is they asked for a thief to be released over asking for Jesus Christ to be set free.

What? I don't understand what you're intending to say here.

Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will you that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ?(a good question for us.) For he knew that for envy they had delivered him. When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have you nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him. But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus. The governor answered and said unto them, Whether of the two will you that I release unto you? They said, Barabbas. (A good thing to reflect on…do we say release unto us “Barabbas!”)

Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified. Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common hall, and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers. And they stripped him(as a thief!), and put on him a scarlet robe.

Trying to help you see the angst I see in whom people say is the thief coming in the night. Where He said to be sober and awake so that the thief doesn’t overcome you.

I have no idea of what you're saying here. You are trying to say that Jesus is not coming as a thief?

He said He is. You don't believe Him?

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Their (Amillennialist) two significant reasons as to why it’s “Amillennialism” has the truth:
Matthew 12:29…how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless you first bind the strong man? Then indeed you may plunder his house?
To me men bind the strong man and plunders his house to destroy them as a thief in the night. Yet One comes which is stronger, Christ comes, to save men from those things they have trusted in that are not able to save them, their armour of darkness …so that they may put on the Armour of Light.

You are not looking at that verse in context. You should not try to interpret any scripture in isolation without looking at the context.

Matthew 12:22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. 25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

So, Jesus healed a person who was blind and couldn't speak because of being possessed by a devil/demon. He cast the demon out of that person. The Pharisees falsely accused Jesus of doing that by the power of Beelzebub, which was a name they used for Satan. But, Jesus clarified to them that if Satan had cast out one of his own then he would be divided against himself. There would be no reason for Satan to have done that as it would not benefit his kingdom to do so. Jesus indicated that He cast out demons by the Spirit of God. So, the context of one entering the strong man's house and then binding him to spoil his goods and his house was in relation to Jesus casting out demons and exercising power over the spiritual enemy. Jesus spoiled Satan's goods (the people he had control over) and his house (the world) by saving people from Satan and his demons' grasp.

Amillennialism say: He first overcomes satans opposition. “Fear not for He who is within you …is stronger than he who is in the World”
That death be swallowed up in Victory when That which without and is weak and beggarly and leads death ..is swallowed up of Life within.

Do we ask for Christ to be released? Or the thief …Barabbas? Do we call Jesus Christ Barabbas and Barabbas Christ? The thief comes to steal, kill and destroy. Christ comes so that they may have life and have it more abundantly. Again …you take joyfully the spoiling (plundering) …that to me mean the thief has already come in the night but what men meant for harm, God meant it for good. That you be prepared and ready having that substance which is able to stand and not be overcome by the thief.

I can't make any sense out of anything you're saying. You have no understanding of Amillennialism at all. Please do more research. Jesus is coming as a thief in the night in the future to destroy all of His enemies. Him coming as a thief in the night is not literally describing Him as a thief, but rather is describing how He will come unexpectedly just like a thief in the night comes unexpectedly. A thief comes to steal at night when he can't be seen, so he just shows up unexpectedly without anyone seeing him coming.

Amillennialism says significant is “casting out the ruler of this world. (John 12:31) now the ruler of this world be cast out.

Revelation 20 “that he might not deceive the nations no more” …here’s the crucial one (Imo). It is our man made doctrines that deceive the nations. we say “that he might not deceive the nations no more” …it is us who should hope we deceive not the nations anymore.

Revelation 20 specifically refers to Satan, so why would you want to change that? Do you not believe in the existence of an evil spirit being named Satan? I can barely understand anything you're saying in this post.

I’m weary of anyone who waits for Christ to come in the end as a thief in the night. To me it’s the opposite where Christ comes “beforehand” to prepare against the thief.

You are completely missing the context of what it means for Him to come as a thief in the night. All that means is that He will come unexpectedly. He said Himself that no one know the day or hour of His second coming (Matt 24:36, Matt 25:36), so Him coming as a thief in the night is just a figurative way of saying that He will come unexpectedly since no one knows when He is coming.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Nowhere. Why do you ask?

Only that y’all stopped talking about it. It got quiet.

What? I don't understand what you're intending to say here.

I’ll try to clarify. As I said I looked up Amillennialism and tried to understand the articles which said there are two significant points. I get there is more I don’t understand about Amillennialsm. But I started with these two points they made. The first was regarding Matthew 12:29 about entering into the strong man’s house and binding him and plundering his goods.
Which I commented that is “as thief” which was already being discussed on this topic.

I do read it in context. I read Amillennialism perspective on it which was “satan was bond so he could not ransack the world that satan had bound up for so long in the captivity because of sin.”

is the passage in Matthew, Luke and Mark speaking about taking away the goods the strong man trusted in when one stronger comes upon him, binds him, and plunders his house? “But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keeps his palace, his goods are in peace: (yet they say peace, peace and there is no peace) But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him(that you not be overcome by a thief in the night, you are the day, you are of the Light…and can see the thief coming so watch and be sober and awake?), he (a thief in the night)takes from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divides his spoils. He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathers not with me scatters.

I get that may still sound confusing. All I meant was the passage about the strong man keeping his house so one stronger doesn’t come upon him and take his armor he trusted in. Is it horrible to say putting on the whole armor of God, the whole armor of Light is NOT the armor where one stronger than Him overcomes Him and steals (takes away the armor He trusted in.

Like Jesus Christ (the reason I quoted those verses about they asked for the thief to be set free and for Jesus of Nazareth to be crucified. THEY stripped Him of His own garments and clothed Him in a scarlet robe. They mocked “the whole armour of God” Jesus Christ trusted in…the soldiers divided the spoils. See…I’m not denying He says “I come as a thief in the night”. I can’t explain it to you but what I deny is what men say is His purpose to accomplish in “as a thief”

In the Old Testament God sets up dogs, beasts, and fowls and another I can’t remember…that comes upon them. Yet He prepares against the “weapon formed against you” prospers and that you be not destroyed. Does that make sense? How do we know those men surrounding Jesus Christ as dogs, beast, fowls are not the thief to come to take away your armor you trusted in? As they wanted to take away His. See…what I see is God comes First to prepare those against being overcome in the night by the thief. You quoted it “that he keeps His Garment” Not being caught unaware. As Jesus Christ was prepared of the Father for thief when the thief came for Him…plainly saying the Armor He trusted in even hell fire could not overcome, nor death. How dogs, fowls, beasts could not overcome it, plainly saying “they” “you” destroy this temple and I’ll raise it up again…saying I have the power to put it off, and take it back up again.

I have no idea of what you're saying here. You are trying to say that Jesus is not coming as a thief?

It’s not that I’m trying to make Him not coming as a thief. It’s that I think He comes as a thief to save men taking away the things that can not save a man. So that men trust in that which does save having been given of God a whole armor to put on against the night coming, giving Light so that they are not caught unaware by the thief in the night.

He said He is. You don't believe Him?

I do believe Him. It’s what men say His desire is when He comes as a thief that I doubt. It is said He comes to kill, steal and destroy. Yet He said He comes that men may have Life.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Yes…blessed is he who watches and keeps his garments …lest he walks naked, and they see his shame. the only way I know he can keep his garment is for the garment to be the New man given of God.

Matthew 12:22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. 25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

So, Jesus healed a person who was blind and couldn't speak because of being possessed by a devil/demon. He cast the demon out of that person. The Pharisees falsely accused Jesus of doing that by the power of Beelzebub, which was a name they used for Satan. But, Jesus clarified to them that if Satan had cast out one of his own then he would be divided against himself. There would be no reason for Satan to have done that as it would not benefit his kingdom to do so. Jesus indicated that He cast out demons by the Spirit of God. So, the context of one entering the strong man's house and then binding him to spoil his goods and his house was in relation to Jesus casting out demons and exercising power over the spiritual enemy. Jesus spoiled Satan's goods (the people he had control over) and his house (the world) by saving people from Satan and his demons' grasp.

Exactly. I don’t disagree Jesus Christ saved “by saving people from Satan and his demons grasp” …I don’t deny Jesus spoiled satans goods …but there is the angst where people say the antichrist (be it a single man, or a spirit comes) I am suggesting it’s this spirit that steals, kills and destroys. And Jesus Christ coming as a thief prepares them against the spirit of antichrist? No?

Please do more research. Jesus is coming as a thief in the night in the future to destroy all of His enemies.

There again…how do we define His coming to destroy His enemies? OT says that if a man pleases God that God can make even His enemies be at peace with Him. “As you were once an enemy of God” To me His destroying is deliverance out from those things that kill, steal, and destroy. I don’t know how else to say it. This is why I speak about “as a thief” I’m not denying the text. What I’m working out is “who is He?” This one who comes that you be not caught unaware by a thief stronger than you that strips you of your garment you trusted in, that you be found naked and ashamed? Can you not see any contradiction in what He delivers out from, so how is He the same as what He comes to stand up against through preparing so that thief in the night catches you not unaware?

Him coming as a thief in the night is not literally describing Him as a thief, but rather is describing how He will come unexpectedly just like a thief in the night comes unexpectedly. A thief comes to steal at night when he can't be seen, so he just shows up unexpectedly without anyone seeing him coming.

More contractions…a thief steals in the night. Yet Christ gives Light against the night and blindness, and stumbling not seeing what has come upon you. “A thief comes to steal at night when he can't be seen, so he just shows up unexpectedly without anyone seeing him coming.” Yet there is much talk on every eye will see Him…even debates on is it modern day technology where cell phones and our technology will catch His coming where “every eye can see Him”? I was taught growing up He comes as a thief in the night to rapture those out before the antichrist comes on the scene. That only those to be raptured (taken, removed) will see Him. My head spins at all men say. All I am concerned about is what does God whom is stronger remove that fits: the thief comes only to steal, kill, and destroy… “I come that men may have life.”

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Revelation 20 specifically refers to Satan, so why would you want to change that? Do you not believe in the existence of an evil spirit being named Satan? I can barely understand anything you're saying in this post.

I get you are still probably going to say I make no sense. I also don’t think the things I’ve always heard concerning His coming as a thief in the night, yet He removes some into Light against the night that they be not caught unaware by the thief’s coming. …makes any sense either. It’s full of contradictions.

You are completely missing the context of what it means for Him to come as a thief in the night. All that means is that He will come unexpectedly.

Yet “you are of the day and of the Light so that day doesn’t catch you unaware ….I don’t understand how that could not mean He come so they might have Light to NOT be caught or overcome …unexpectedly.

He said Himself that no one know the day or hour of His second coming (Matt 24:36, Matt 25:36), so Him coming as a thief in the night is just a figurative way of saying that He will come unexpectedly since no one knows when He is coming.

In Matthew…but then He rose up again to give men Light to see so they be not caught unaware. Is that not something to praise Him for yet if we are still saying the same thing …ignoring “that you be not caught unaware” …I don’t know what else to say.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Revelation 20 specifically refers to Satan, so why would you want to change that? Do you not believe in the existence of an evil spirit being named Satan? I can barely understand anything you're saying in this post.

That was the second point made for Amillennialism. Concerning cast out satan that he go out no more to deceive the nations.

I do agree with Amillennialism concerning the thousand years is not literal. Some parts I agreed with about Amillennialism. But in my opinion only it’s still another doctrine that picks and chooses what is spiritual and what is literal to fit the doctrine.

Concerning casting out satan so he goes out no more to deceive the nations. I look at the state of all the many doctrines men hold dear. It is men the thief comes upon. To me it’s all those doctrines He referred to in “That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;”

To me that says the same thing as Revelation where satan is cast out so that he goes out no more to deceive the nations. In this I agree more with @Stewardofthemystery who said (I think in maybe another thread) the antichrist is not a single man but a spirit of “antichrist” which is: by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.

To me satan is cast out…so “you go out no more to deceive the nations” “no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive”

Yet mens doctrines that want to take the focus off …satan is cast out so you stop deceiving others with speaking words anti-against-Christ …to hold onto a doctrine is …refusing to stop going out to deceive the nations. Refusing to be no more children tossed to and fro, carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of me, where they lie in wait to deceive.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Only that y’all stopped talking about it. It got quiet.

The last post made in this thread before you replied to me was by me. I'm not sure what you're expecting. I had nothing to add to what I had already said.

I do read it in context. I read Amillennialism perspective on it which was “satan was bond so he could not ransack the world that satan had bound up for so long in the captivity because of sin.”

is the passage in Matthew, Luke and Mark speaking about taking away the goods the strong man trusted in when one stronger comes upon him, binds him, and plunders his house?

Yes.

“But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keeps his palace, his goods are in peace: (yet they say peace, peace and there is no peace) But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him(that you not be overcome by a thief in the night, you are the day, you are of the Light…and can see the thief coming so watch and be sober and awake?), he (a thief in the night)takes from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divides his spoils. He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathers not with me scatters.

You are completely misinterpreting coming like a thief in the night means. I explained it to you. It's Jesus that comes like a thief in the night. I showed you that. Yet, you want to think that reference is to someone else instead. I don't get it. I don't understand the way you think at all. I think you have a lot of trouble understanding scripture in context.

I get that may still sound confusing.

So, why not try to be more clear? You're coming across as if you don't think it's Jesus who will come as a thief in the night, but that the coming as a thief in the night applies to someone else. Is that your intention?

All I meant was the passage about the strong man keeping his house so one stronger doesn’t come upon him and take his armor he trusted in.

No, that isn't what it's saying. Read it more carefully. It's saying that one stronger than the strong man binds the strong man so that he can plunder his goods and his house. It's a reference to Jesus binding Satan so that He can deliver people from Satan's grasp and bring them into His kingdom.

I use passages like these to support my understanding of Satan's binding:

Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

1 John 3:8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

So, if you think of Satan as the strong man and Jesus as the stronger one who binds the strong man, you can see that it has to do with Jesus taking the power of death away from Satan in order to "free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death" and "destroy the devil's work". Does this make sense to you?

Is it horrible to say putting on the whole armor of God, the whole armor of Light is NOT the armor where one stronger than Him overcomes Him and steals (takes away the armor He trusted in.

This has nothing to do with the binding of the strong man.

Like Jesus Christ (the reason I quoted those verses about they asked for the thief to be set free and for Jesus of Nazareth to be crucified. THEY stripped Him of His own garments and clothed Him in a scarlet robe. They mocked “the whole armour of God” Jesus Christ trusted in…the soldiers divided the spoils. See…I’m not denying He says “I come as a thief in the night”. I can’t explain it to you but what I deny is what men say is His purpose to accomplish in “as a thief”

I can't understand anything you're saying. None of what you're saying has anything to do with the binding of Satan. And your understanding of coming as a thief in the night is flawed, also. That ONLY relates to Jesus coming unexpectedly the way a thief comes unexpectedly in the night. You're trying to relate that to other things for whatever reason.

For some reason you are trying to apply the reference to coming as a thief in the night to others besides Jesus but scripture does not do this. Jesus Himself will come as a thief in the night. It doesn't mean He should be compared in every way to a thief. The reason He is said to come as a thief in the night is because His coming will be unexpected. No one knows the day or hour (Matt 24:36, Matt 25:13). That's it. You shouldn't read any more into it than that.

It’s not that I’m trying to make Him not coming as a thief. It’s that I think He comes as a thief to save men taking away the things that can not save a man.

Huh? I just don't understand anything you're saying. Look at what scripture says about this.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

He will come as a thief in the night to destroy His enemies. They will not see it coming. They will not escape. They will have no idea that His wrath is coming down on them until it actually happens. For us, we also don't know exactly when it will happen, but we are expecting Him to come. And we will escape His wrath because we will be changed and put on immortality and will be caught up to Him in the air.

So that men trust in that which does save having been given of God a whole armor to put on against the night coming, giving Light so that they are not caught unaware by the thief in the night.

I do believe Him. It’s what men say His desire is when He comes as a thief that I doubt. It is said He comes to kill, steal and destroy. Yet He said He comes that men may have Life.

No, it says Satan comes to kill, steal and destroy, not Jesus. And the coming as a thief in the night has nothing to do with Satan, but rather only has to do with Jesus and the fact that He will come unexpectedly. When a thief comes in the night it is unexpected because no one sees it coming .That's all it means for Jesus to come as a thief in the night. You're reading way more into it than is intended.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes…blessed is he who watches and keeps his garments …lest he walks naked, and they see his shame. the only way I know he can keep his garment is for the garment to be the New man given of God.

Exactly. I don’t disagree Jesus Christ saved “by saving people from Satan and his demons grasp” …I don’t deny Jesus spoiled satans goods …

Okay. So, I relate that to the binding of Satan. It's related to Jesus setting people free who were formerly in spiritual darkness. In Old Testament times, Paul said that the Gentiles had "no hope" and were "without God in the world". In OT times Satan had the power of death that allowed him to keep people in slavery to the fear of death, as Hebrews 2:14-15 says. They had no hope of eternal life. But, that all changed when Jesus died and rose again from the dead. That made the way for people to have the hope of eternal life. Satan no longer had the power of death that he could use to prevent people from having that hope.

but there is the angst where people say the antichrist (be it a single man, or a spirit comes) I am suggesting it’s this spirit that steals, kills and destroys.

Yes, but that has nothing to do with the coming as a thief in the night. It is Jesus who comes as a thief in the night. But, as I've explained, this doesn't mean that it's calling Jesus Himself a thief. No, that's not what it means. It simply refers to the fact that He will come unexpectedly. A thief in the night comes unexpectedly. So, it's simply a reference to the unexpected nature of His coming. He said Himself that no one knows the day or hour of His second coming (Matthew 24:36, Matthew 25:13).

And Jesus Christ coming as a thief prepares them against the spirit of antichrist? No?

No. Where are you coming up with this? You need to read scripture and see what it says about what happens when Jesus comes. He's not coming to prepare people for anything, He is coming to gather His people to Himself (1 Thess 4:14-17, Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27) and to destroy His enemies (Matt 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-37, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 19:11-21).

There again…how do we define His coming to destroy His enemies? OT says that if a man pleases God that God can make even His enemies be at peace with Him. “As you were once an enemy of God” To me His destroying is deliverance out from those things that kill, steal, and destroy. I don’t know how else to say it. This is why I speak about “as a thief” I’m not denying the text. What I’m working out is “who is He?” This one who comes that you be not caught unaware by a thief stronger than you that strips you of your garment you trusted in, that you be found naked and ashamed? Can you not see any contradiction in what He delivers out from, so how is He the same as what He comes to stand up against through preparing so that thief in the night catches you not unaware?

How do you interpret this passage?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

More contractions…a thief steals in the night. Yet Christ gives Light against the night and blindness, and stumbling not seeing what has come upon you. “A thief comes to steal at night when he can't be seen, so he just shows up unexpectedly without anyone seeing him coming.” Yet there is much talk on every eye will see Him…even debates on is it modern day technology where cell phones and our technology will catch His coming where “every eye can see Him”? I was taught growing up He comes as a thief in the night to rapture those out before the antichrist comes on the scene. That only those to be raptured (taken, removed) will see Him. My head spins at all men say. All I am concerned about is what does God whom is stronger remove that fits: the thief comes only to steal, kill, and destroy… “I come that men may have life.”

You are making my head spin with what you say. You are taking Jesus coming as a thief in the night completely out of context. You are focused on the word "thief" and that is throwing you off track. Jesus is not literally a thief. All it means for Him to come as a thief in the night is that His coming will be unexpected similar to how a thief coming in the night is unexpected. That's all. It's just another way of referring to the fact that no one knows the day or hour of His coming.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I get you are still probably going to say I make no sense.

Yes, that's correct.

I also don’t think the things I’ve always heard concerning His coming as a thief in the night, yet He removes some into Light against the night that they be not caught unaware by the thief’s coming. …makes any sense either. It’s full of contradictions.

I don't even know what you're talking about here.

Yet “you are of the day and of the Light so that day doesn’t catch you unaware ….I don’t understand how that could not mean He come so they might have Light to NOT be caught or overcome …unexpectedly.

What? I think this might be hopeless for me to understand your perspective on all this.

In Matthew…but then He rose up again to give men Light to see so they be not caught unaware. Is that not something to praise Him for yet if we are still saying the same thing …ignoring “that you be not caught unaware” …I don’t know what else to say.

While even we don't know the day or hour of His coming, we will not be caught completely unaware because we are expecting Him to come. Unbelievers, however, will be caught completely unaware and off guard because they are not expecting Him to come. And "sudden destruction" will come upon them when He comes from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That was the second point made for Amillennialism. Concerning cast out satan that he go out no more to deceive the nations.

I do agree with Amillennialism concerning the thousand years is not literal. Some parts I agreed with about Amillennialism. But in my opinion only it’s still another doctrine that picks and chooses what is spiritual and what is literal to fit the doctrine.

That's not true, but it's your choice what to believe. Just ask God for wisdom about all this (James 1:5-7). That's the key to understanding.

Concerning casting out satan so he goes out no more to deceive the nations. I look at the state of all the many doctrines men hold dear. It is men the thief comes upon. To me it’s all those doctrines He referred to in “That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;”

To me that says the same thing as Revelation where satan is cast out so that he goes out no more to deceive the nations. In this I agree more with @Stewardofthemystery who said (I think in maybe another thread) the antichrist is not a single man but a spirit of “antichrist” which is: by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.

I do not believe in an individual antichrist, either, so that is not an Amil belief. That's something that dispensationalists typically believe.

To me satan is cast out…so “you go out no more to deceive the nations” “no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive”

Yet mens doctrines that want to take the focus off …satan is cast out so you stop deceiving others with speaking words anti-against-Christ …to hold onto a doctrine is …refusing to stop going out to deceive the nations. Refusing to be no more children tossed to and fro, carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of me, where they lie in wait to deceive.

Not really sure what you're saying here. Oh well. Thanks for the discussion, anyway.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

No, it says Satan comes to kill, steal and destroy, not Jesus.

Yet we keep repeating He comes to destroy His enemies. To me it was Saul He come to destroy, to deliver Paul. I get “that is not Jesus” who comes to steal, kill, and destroy. Yet men have told me this IS Jesus. That is all I’m saying…even debating how deep the literal blood spill will be.

And the coming as a thief in the night has nothing to do with Satan, but rather only has to do with Jesus and the fact that He will come unexpectedly.

It is more than “unexpectedly” as a thief but as you said “to destroy His enemies”. It is how He destroys His enemies I question. How men have said He destroys. For I was an enemy of God.

Jesus taking the power of death away from Satan in order to "free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death" and "destroy the devil's work". Does this make sense to you?

Taking away the power or (sting) of death. Agree. But that is the point I’m trying to make. His coming is fir good and not harm. To deliver.

He will come as a thief in the night to destroy His enemies. They will not see it coming. They will not escape

Yet “No, it says Satan comes to kill, steal and destroy, not Jesus.” Agree.

Yes, but that has nothing to do with the coming as a thief in the night. It is Jesus who comes as a thief in the night. But, as I've explained, this doesn't mean that it's calling Jesus Himself a thief. No, that's not what it means. It simply refers to the fact that He will come unexpectedly. A thief in the night comes unexpectedly. So, it's simply a reference to the unexpected nature of His coming.

You said it simply references only “unexpectedly” yet go on to speak of “to destroy His enemies” yet say it has nothing to do with overcoming the armor they trusted in. Yet it’s: removal of death and putting on Life of the New Man. To me that could also indicate it’s “death” they trusted in as their armor that He comes to remove and overcome in Victory. I say this because of in proverbs where it says “all those who hate me, love death.” Also whom a man is overcome by…the same is brought into bondage too. Paul spoke of being captive to Christ. How you say “as a thief” has nothing to do with by whom a man is overcome makes no sense to me. We are either overcome by sin unto death…or overcome by obedience unto righteousness.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yet we keep repeating He comes to destroy His enemies. To me it was Saul He come to destroy, to deliver Paul. I get “that is not Jesus” who comes to steal, kill, and destroy. Yet men have told me this IS Jesus. That is all I’m saying…even debating how deep the literal blood spill will be.

Jesus isn't coming to steal, but scripture repeatedly says He is coming to destroy His enemies. Are you uncomfortable with that?

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

It is more than “unexpectedly” as a thief but as you said “to destroy His enemies”. It is how He destroys His enemies I question. How men have said He destroys. For I was an enemy of God.

Why would you question that? You know God destroyed all but 8 people on the earth in Noah's day, right? So, I'm not understanding why you seem to have an issue with the idea of Jesus literally destroying all of His enemies when He returns.

Taking away the power or (sting) of death. Agree. But that is the point I’m trying to make. His coming is fir good and not harm. To deliver.

It's both. Just read 1 Thess 4:14-5:3 and 2 Thess 1:7-10. Why do you think it as to be one or the other?

Yet “No, it says Satan comes to kill, steal and destroy, not Jesus.” Agree.

It never talks about Satan coming as a thief in the night, it only says that in reference to Jesus. Unlike Satan, Jesus is not literally a thief. He is only coming as a thief in the night in the sense that He is coming unexpectedly. There's no reason to read any more into it than that.

You said it simply references only “unexpectedly” yet go on to speak of “to destroy His enemies” yet say it has nothing to do with overcoming the armor they trusted in.

What does "overcoming the armor they trusted in" even mean?

Yet it’s: removal of death and putting on Life of the New Man.

That happens when we become saved. That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about the second coming of Christ. You do believe He is coming again in the future, don't you?

To me that could also indicate it’s “death” they trusted in as their armor that He comes to remove and overcome in Victory. I say this because of in proverbs where it says “all those who hate me, love death.”

Where does scripture ever indicate this? You need to look at what scripture teaches rather than speculating on things like this.

 

[rwb]

Yet we keep repeating He comes to destroy His enemies. To me it was Saul He come to destroy, to deliver Paul. I get “that is not Jesus” who comes to steal, kill, and destroy. Yet men have told me this IS Jesus. That is all I’m saying…even debating how deep the literal blood spill will be.

It is more than “unexpectedly” as a thief but as you said “to destroy His enemies”. It is how He destroys His enemies I question. How men have said He destroys. For I was an enemy of God.

Taking away the power or (sting) of death. Agree. But that is the point I’m trying to make. His coming is fir good and not harm. To deliver.

Yet “No, it says Satan comes to kill, steal and destroy, not Jesus.” Agree.

You said it simply references only “unexpectedly” yet go on to speak of “to destroy His enemies” yet say it has nothing to do with overcoming the armor they trusted in. Yet it’s: removal of death and putting on Life of the New Man. To me that could also indicate it’s “death” they trusted in as their armor that He comes to remove and overcome in Victory. I say this because of in proverbs where it says “all those who hate me, love death.” Also whom a man is overcome by…the same is brought into bondage too. Paul spoke of being captive to Christ. How you say “as a thief” has nothing to do with by whom a man is overcome makes no sense to me. We are either overcome by sin unto death…or overcome by obedience unto righteousness.

The Scriptures tell us that when Christ comes the second time, His coming will be like a thief in the night to those who are not of the day but of the night. It is now during this age, as the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is being sent unto all the nations of the world that man MUST be saved. When we are saved by grace through faith it is said that we have come out of darkness and into His marvelous Light. We are no longer children of the night, but now live in and through the Light of Christ.

But as long as we live in our natural body of flesh there is a battle waging within our heart and mind. Our flesh or natural man that we once were, now has the Holy Spirit sent from Christ within us. Paul speaks of the spiritual battle that rages on between the natural man of flesh we were and the spiritual man we became when we were born again from above. Paul writes that if we set our minds and hearts on things from above, then we will not fulfill the things our natural man still yearns for.

When Christ returns, His coming will not be unexpected for we who are not walking in darkness, because we are anxiously waiting and looking for Him to return. But for all who are still walking in darkness, without the Light of Christ to remind them of His coming again, Christ's return will be as a thief in the night for them. Because in life they did not turn to Christ's Light for everlasting life. Christ is not coming again to save them who walk in darkness.

Those who are not prepared and waiting for the return of Christ are in darkness still because they are the children of Satan. Satan still has power over them, constantly reminding them that they will die. That was the fate of all the Gentile nations of the earth before the first advent of Christ. Satan, as the strong man over them was able to hold them in bondage to fear of death before Christ came to earth a man. That's why Satan was bound, "that he should deceive the nations no more."

It was by giving His life an atonement for sin, and defeating death that Christ, the STRONGER man was able to destroy this power Satan had before Christ came.

Hebrews 2:14-15 (KJV) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

To prove Christ has power over death, He resurrected from the grave. Since Satan was bound, before ascending to heaven after He died, Christ first descended into the lower parts of the earth (pit; domain of Satan; place of the dead) to set free the captives that had died in faith waiting for Christ to come to set them free.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Death no longer has any hold on we who walk in the Light of Christ. We know that when He comes again when the last trumpet sounds all things shall be made new again. And there will be no more children of darkness, Christ will come unexpectedly, not to save them, but with flames of fire from heaven to utterly burn them up.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The Scriptures tell us that when Christ comes the second time, His coming will be like a thief in the night to those who are not of the day but of the night. It is now during this age, as the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is being sent unto all the nations of the world that man MUST be saved. When we are saved by grace through faith it is said that we have come out of darkness and into His marvelous Light. We are no longer children of the night, but now live in and through the Light of Christ.

But as long as we live in our natural body of flesh there is a battle waging within our heart and mind. Our flesh or natural man that we once were, now has the Holy Spirit sent from Christ within us. Paul speaks of the spiritual battle that rages on between the natural man of flesh we were and the spiritual man we became when we were born again from above. Paul writes that if we set our minds and hearts on things from above, then we will not fulfill the things our natural man still yearns for.

When Christ returns, His coming will not be unexpected for we who are not walking in darkness, because we are anxiously waiting and looking for Him to return. But for all who are still walking in darkness, without the Light of Christ to remind them of His coming again, Christ's return will be as a thief in the night for them. Because in life they did not turn to Christ's Light for everlasting life. Christ is not coming again to save them who walk in darkness.

Those who are not prepared and waiting for the return of Christ are in darkness still because they are the children of Satan. Satan still has power over them, constantly reminding them that they will die. That was the fate of all the Gentile nations of the earth before the first advent of Christ. Satan, as the strong man over them was able to hold them in bondage to fear of death before Christ came to earth a man. That's why Satan was bound, "that he should deceive the nations no more."

It was by giving His life an atonement for sin, and defeating death that Christ, the STRONGER man was able to destroy this power Satan had before Christ came.

Hebrews 2:14-15 (KJV) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

To prove Christ has power over death, He resurrected from the grave. Since Satan was bound, before ascending to heaven after He died, Christ first descended into the lower parts of the earth (pit; domain of Satan; place of the dead) to set free the captives that had died in faith waiting for Christ to come to set them free.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Death no longer has any hold on we who walk in the Light of Christ. We know that when He comes again when the last trumpet sounds all things shall be made new again. And there will be no more children of darkness, Christ will come unexpectedly, not to save them, but with flames of fire from heaven to utterly burn them up.

If I follow the thread I see in the Word of God …a passage significant to me is Numbers 5 for I do think it is the gospel —the Good News—maybe shrouded but clearly there (Imo) under the Law of Jealousies: of the woman suspected of adultery by Her husband. (Yet the good news is the woman pronounced clean, and free to conceive fruit). I do think it follows Romans 7 where Paul spoke of by the body of Christ if her husband be dead, she is free to bring forth fruit unto God. She is there in Numbers five where that woman —-New Jerusalem above conceives and brings forth seed, bearing fruit unto God. Being called “no more” an adulteress woman. Paul says in the same way …you are made free by the body of Christ. Yet there is also the woman caught in adultery as long as her husband lives.

Why is that significant to me? It’s all there (I think) where if you are going to keep the law then we must keep all of it, not failing in any point. This is what Paul compares to the woman in adultery still yet under the Law of jealousies of her husband as …still yet trying to please her husband which can never be pleased, and likewise the husband trying to please his wife. We see this in the man who is married and the woman who is married …cares about the things of this world. But even there is the unmarried —where Paul said let them now be as unmarried—set free from the law of jealousies of her husband by the body of Christ —attending to the things of the Lord, without distraction. “I say this not to cast a snare on you.” See we make those gender roles when to me I see them as Romans 7…two covenants, two women. either keeping the whole law and failing in no part —-or made free by the body of Jesus Christ to bear fruit unto God. Paul lays this out also in …telling them he has no other to send to them that will “naturally” care about their state except for Timothy; for all men have gone after their own things and not the things pertaining to God. To me that throws out…I get others will disagree but why His word speaks of men working that unseemly among themselves and women likewise “doing that which is contrary to nature”. It all connects I think. One passage explaining another, harmonizing together with a message of in the end who are we looking for …an angry judge? The word says they have no hope but only an expectation of a judge coming. The mountain burning whom none could approach is this mountain of Jealousies…the same mountain burning of fire, smoke and brimstone …notice the “trumpet” that sounded and they screamed that it stop sounding, saying they couldn’t withstand the “sound”? It’s this mountain Christ spoke of moving out of the way. And He did this with His own body. We have to put into perspective (I think) how Paul spoke of the law come upon him and that which was ordained unto life, he found to be unto death. Then was the law evil? Heaven forbid, but had it not been for the law he would have not know “you shall not murder”. Yet…it all lead unto “the Revelation of Jesus Christ” to me …I question our saying Jesus Christ is coming as the burning mountain where no one could approach or come near least they be destroyed. I question His coming as that Old Testament where men are stoned for their crimes(does it sound familiar? Is Jesus coming back, returning as the old?) I think that is what He come to overcome and swallow up in Victory by His body on the crucifix—to destroy that (every wind of doctrine) contrary to us. To remove the Vail they(in the reading of Moses) they still have a vail over their faces to not see the end of what was (is) to be demolished.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

References:
For you are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) But you are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things than that of Abel. See that you refuse not him that speaks. For if they escaped not (what @Spiritual Israelite keeps talking about in “they shall not escape”) who refused him that spoke on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaks from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he has promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifying the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.
****

For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise you, except you utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

***

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as you see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (the ministration of the spirit..having come out of the ministration of condemnation unto death.) For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


…. Where I think the thief is where He says that you be not caught unaware by a thief in the night, not being overcome as a thief in the night…being of the Light, having passed from death(the ministration of condemnation) unto Life(the Ministration of the Spirit, which is not “an unholy thing”.) >Romans 7 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin(as a thief in the night), taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good (you know that day comes) made death unto me? God forbid. But sin(is the thief that comes to steal, kill, and destroy), that it might appear sin(when that sin man is revealed), working death in me by that which is good(I come as a thief, even so..come Lord!); that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

To clarify in talking to my husband “behold I come as a thief” to clarify I am saying in the above I see the angst of is it an unholy thing that Christ comes as a thief in the night? What I am suggesting “no” for had He not come “I would not have know sin” which is the liar, working death “in me”
“that it becomes exceedingly sinful”? I hear the angst of what men say of whether His coming as a thief in the night to spoil a man’s goods he trusted in…is it an unholy thing? That it reveals death working in me? And by it sin slew me? ‘Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin working death in me by that which is good. (Behold I come as a thief) “the thief comes not but to steal, kill, and destroy” “I come that men may have Life.” And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 

[Timtofly]

Death is eliminated when Jesus comes. So will sin and sinners. Let us have a literal word-by-word look at the Hebrew pertaining to Isaiah 65:20.

לֹא־יִֽהְיֶ֨ה מִשָּׁ֜ם עֹ֗וד ע֤וּל יָמִים֙ וְזָקֵ֔ן אֲשֶׁ֥ר
Lo'- yihªyeh mishaam `owd `uwl yaamiym wªzaaqeen 'ªsher
Not be hence more an infant [of] days, an old man after

לֹֽא־יְמַלֵּ֖א אֶת־יָמָ֑יו כִּ֣י הַנַּ֗עַר בֶּן־מֵאָ֤ה שָׁנָה֙ יָמ֔וּת
Lo'- yªmalee''et- yaamaayw Kiy hana`ar ben- mee'aah shaanaah yaamuwt
Not fulfill your days inasmuch a child old an hundred years die

What is this telling us?

The exact same thing, only in different terms.

This is called synonymous parallelism. It is telling us that a child will never become old on the new earth. This line reinforces what has just been said. It confirms the thought of the impending reality of no more death in the eternal state for the righteous. In eternity there will be no more aging or dying. It is not going to be like our corrupt age where infants eventually get old. It will not be like the here-and-now where a man could live to be an old person of a hundred years of age and then die.

This passage is actually saying the opposite to what many think. What this is saying is: there will be no more aging, curse or death on the new earth. Every glorified saints will have come to full maturity in Christ with their new perfect eternal bodies. It is the next line of Isaiah 65:20 that has confused many, because the translators have not interpreted it in a literal word-for-word sense. It is not saying there will be more babies, death and old men. It is saying the opposite to what they are alleging. It is saying that there will be no more aging: children getting old, old people and people dying! It is describing eternity to an Old Testament audience in terms they can grasp.

The new heavens and new earth will indeed be a glorious victorious perfect state where death is unknown. God is saying that the eternal state will actually be free of death for young and old alike. This passage is telling us that there will be no more death on the new earth! The Hebrew word Lo' (Strong’s 3808) means “no” or “not.” The word is a simple negation. The word is found twice in this much-debated new heavens and new earth verse.

Debate in Isaiah 65:20 centers in on the use of the original word yaamuw meaning “die” or “death.” What should we relate it to? Is there indeed “death” on the new earth? Also, should the death be related to the “child” in the second phrase or the “sinner” in the third phrase? What is more, in what way should it read? I must admit, if we are to read it in its most natural way it fits perfectly with the context. So why change it? I believe it should be applied to the “child” as it should agree with the first phrase that is simply a reinforcement of the same truth. It then fits perfectly with the whole overall teaching of the prophet on the perfection and bliss of the eternal state.

No (Lo') longer will an infant become like an old man,
No (Lo') longer will a child reach one hundred and die.

This is Old Testament verbiage that describes eternity to the Old Testament listener. It is telling us: no one is going to age! This relates to the new heaven and new earth not some supposed future millennium – that will never happen.

The original Hebrew does not give us any reason to attribute death to the “child” in this second line. In fact, it does not fit the whole context which is evidently speaking of the removal of aging and death on the new earth. Interpreting it as we have, seems to (1) match the original, (2) make sense to its context, and (3) taps into the thrust of what the prophet was trying to relay. We need to remind ourselves that the whole idea here is describing the incredible eternal deliverance from the curse of corruption and the joy that “the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind” on the “new earth.”

According to your eschatology, there will be no infants at all in eternity. How can you say babies will be born and age but not grow old?

These verses are not talking about aging and dying.

These verses are talking about the ability to procreate, and that some children will be considered cursed or not normal, because of being disobedient.

Isaiah 65 does have generation after generation filling the earth. Isaiah 65 should be your current millennium kingdom since the Cross. But you know that cannot happen even though you claim Daniel 9:24 is in full effect allowing people to never die, because they have never sinned, but have been born righteous, without Adam's transgression.

That is what Isaiah 65 is referring to as a new heaven and earth. It is without sin and death. However an individual can still disobey God, which carries the death penalty, no questions asked. And no one will mourn the death of a cursed person who willingly disobeys any law.

Creation is not eternity and never will be. You think the NHNE is eternity. That is an impossibility. This current creation is supposed to be eternity without an end, at least that is how the OT portrays the Word of God which sustains creation without an end. Then Jesus explained to them that heaven and earth could pass away, but not the Word.

So we have a concept of heaven and earth that is forever, but creation itself has a beginning and an end. So Revelation 21 is not an eternity. It has a defined beginning, so can never be eternity. We are just not told it has an end, so assuming it does not have an end, would change the very definition of creation itself. Eternity is never said to be created.

If you think the earth will no longer exist immediately at the Second Coming, then neither would Paradise, the throne in heaven, nor the tree of life. They would all be dissolved as part of heaven. You cannot annihilate half a creation, and leave the rest without being destroyed as well. The Temple and alter in heaven would also no longer exist.

 

[Timtofly]

Can you show me where Paul alludes to the thousand years in any way, shape or form in this passage:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

In your view it says "...Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the thousand years that He reigns on earth. Then cometh Satan's little season. Then cometh the end...". You are trying to add something to scripture that isn't there. You won't allow Paul to teach you the truth about this. You have to twist Paul's words instead because it's more important to you to keep your doctrine afloat than to accept what Paul taught.

Paul does not say: Christ the only firstfruit, the millennium, Satan's little season, and then comes the end, the Second Coming, either, like you do.

You twist Paul's words like every one else, to keep your doctrine afloat.

 

[Timtofly]

No, I did not say that. I don't get the sense that you're even trying to understand what I'm saying.

I showed 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 which indicates that Christ's resurrection was the first unto bodily immortality (that is the context of Acts 26:23, also) and then next in order are those who belong to Him at His second coming.

And I've said to you more than once that I believe having part in the first resurrection has to do with spiritually having part in Christ's resurrection (the first resurrection). And I point to scriptures like these to support that point:

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Why is this spiritual death in these verses, but not at the 7th Trumpet.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

These are spiritually dead people alive on the earth, not physically dead people from over 6,000 years of life on earth.

The entire population is not all instantly dead at the Second Coming, because they have to face Judgment before they are cast into the LOF. No verse states that the wicked are all killed so they can be resurrected to face Judgment. Why do you add an unnecessary step, when those physically alive can be judged just as easily as those physically dead?

Being destroyed does not mean physically killed. They will be destroyed by being cast alive into the LOF.

 

[Timtofly]

You are making scripture say what you want it to say. The new heavens and new earth clearly are ushered in AFTER the thousand years (and Satan's little season), according to John in Revelation 20-21, and not before as you are trying to claim.

"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying."

This never states the old were destroyed. Only a change in status from sin to righteousness. Not for a select few, but the entire creation.

You fail to see this chapter as describing your current symbolic millennium. Why is that? Would not the complete fulfillment of Daniel 9:24 be what Isaiah 65 is talking about?

You have Daniel 9 describing Revelation 20, but Isaiah 65 describing Revelation 21. Both Daniel 9 and Isaiah 65 are describing Revelation 20 after the Second Coming and the baptism of fire.

Isaiah 65 is still addressing earthly Jerusalem during the time Jesus is sitting as the Prince to come, in Jerusalem on His glorious throne. I am not one claiming that humans are left as sinners to populate the earth with sin.

But there will be humans like Adam and Eve prior to Adam's disobedience, having no sin whatsoever who will populate the earth just as Isaiah 65 declares. Do you think there is a need to populate heaven and earth in Revelation 21?

And the point you keep avoiding; are those in Revelation 20:4 described as beheaded, spiritually beheaded or physically beheaded? And why would John describe every last redeemed person as having been beheaded if this is physical? If it is not physical then no one physically dies either in that chapter, as an ongoing phenomenon. It is only talking about spiritual beheadings. John would not be talking about life in general, but only those spiritually beheaded, and spiritually resurrected. Then you have to define that a spiritual beheading is the exact same thing as a spiritual resurrection. Being spiritually beheaded is the same point as the spiritual resurrection.

If Revelation 20 is not talking about any physical resurrection, then there is no physical resurrection at the end after heaven and earth pass away for the dead standing before God, either. You cannot change the topic if you have already declared the topic is only spiritual, and never physical.

 

[Timtofly]

so it makes no sense to claim that the day of the Lord lasts for a thousand years.

Nor 24 hours.

The newly restored heavens and earth won't last for only 24 hours.

It won't take 24 hours to destroy creation, as you imagine. It will happen fast, all at once.

Premil view the Day of the Lord as the result of the restoration. Amil view the Day of the Lord as only a period of destruction.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The newly restored heavens and earth won't last for only 24 hours.

I didn't say that. You spend all of your time arguing with your imaginary strawman. If only you could get back the time that you waste doing that.

It won't take 24 hours to destroy creation, as you imagine. It will happen fast, all at once.

I never said it will take 24 hours to destroy creation. Again, you are misrepresenting my view and arguing with your strawman. That's all you ever do. Please ask God to help you understand what you read because you always misunderstand what you read and it results in you misrepresenting what others believe over and over again. I feel sorry for you because you don't ever actually address what others believe and only address what your imaginary strawman believes instead, which is a colossal waste of your time.

Premil view the Day of the Lord as the result of the restoration. Amil view the Day of the Lord as only a period of destruction.

Amils view the day of the Lord as the time when the Lord Jesus returns and gathers His people to Himself and renews the heavens and earth by fire which results in the eternal new heavens and new earth. That's what Peter said we are looking forward to in accordance with the promise of the Lord's second coming (2 Peter 3:13).