70 AD revisited

[Randy Kluth]

Personally, I think this answers better to Jesus' discourse in Luke,

Luke 21:20-24 LITV
20) And when you see Jerusalem being encircled by armies, then recognize that its destruction has come near.
21) Then let those in Judea flee into the mountains; and those in its midst, let them go out. And those in the open spaces, let them not go into her.
22) For these are days of vengeance when all things that have been written are to be fulfilled.
23) But woe to the pregnant women, and the ones suckling in those days; for great distress will be on the earth and wrath on this people.
24) And they will fall by the mouth of the sword and will be led captive to all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trodden down by nations, until the times of the nations are fulfilled.

Jesus' prophecy here is of Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, ending with the the captivity until the fulfilling of the times of the gentiles.

On the other hand,

Matthew 24:15-21 LITV
15) Then when you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (the one reading, let him understand),
16) then let those in Judea flee into the mountains;
17) the one on the housetop, let him not go down to take anything out of his house;
18) and the one in the field, let him not turn back to take his garment.
19) But woe to the ones having a child in womb, and to those suckling in those days!
20) And pray that your flight will not occur in winter nor in a sabbath.
21) For there will be great affliction, such as has not happened from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever will be.

In Matthew's discourse, Jesus is prophesying the abomination of desolation ala Daniel, and subsequent flight from Judea, followed by affliction that would end all life if not cut short, ending in Jesus' return and rescue of His chosen.

Much love!

Yes, I'm aware of the differentiation, by some, of Luke's version and the version of Matthew and Mark. Although I think they were all the same Discourse, I respect any of the versions sincerely held by Christians.

I've gone meticulously through all 3 versions, and see no real difference in any of them except that they use different words for the same statements. In other words, the authors felt free to use synonyms to depict what Jesus' said, without any sense that they were corrupting the literal words he used.

When Matthew mentioned the Abomination of Desolation, Luke was saying the same thing in reference to the desolation of Jerusalem by an Army. With all due respect, that is how I, personally, view it.

The constant attempt to make this historical interpretation of the Olivet Discourse into "Preterism" irritates me, because historical prophecies are something we all hold to as Christians. The prophecy of Jesus' birth and death are examples of historical prophecies that have been fulfilled already.

In the same way, the Abomination of Desolation has, I believe, been fulfilled in 70 AD or thereabouts. None of this requires belief that the Antichrist was Nero, nor that the book of Revelation was fulfilled in the 1st few centuries.

But I would agree with Preterists on this one single fact--an important fact, that the AoD was fulfilled in 70 AD or thereabouts, and that the main focus of the Olivet Discourse was not on the 2nd Coming, but on the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The Church Fathers largely believed this, as well.

This is not to say that the 2nd Coming was unimportant in this Discourse. It was very important, because it will be at the 2nd Coming that final judgment will come to this world in the present age, sealing the fate of all men in the present age. The fact of the 2nd Coming makes what we do now incredibly important, because it determines how we will be judged not just in the end, but also in historical judgments, such as the one that took place in 70 AD.

Regardless, I thank you for your thoughts. I believe good Christians will have good ideas simply because they come out of a good heart. I wish you well.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Although Jesus prophesied in Matthew 24 that "all flesh" would die if He didn't return to stop it. So rather than being "merely" against the Jewish people, this affliction will threaten all humanity. For the sake of Israel, Jesus ends it, returning to rescue His people.

Myself, I look at His words as describing a certain time in history in which this happens, rather then times of affliction interspersed with more peaceful times. Rather that this is affliction that continues and worsens, until, again, all humanity is threatened.

Much love!

With all due respect, I think the Olivet Discourse was largely a Jewish prophecy, focused on the fate of the nation Israel. The phrase, "all flesh would die," has reference, therefore, to the Jewish people specifically, who have endured many centuries of hardship and in fact a threat to their existence.

This addresses the future homelessness of the Jewish People, and would include both believers and unbelievers. All would suffer the loss of a homeland, and suffer the associated problems. But believers, in particular, would suffer from the ungodliness of the Jewish majority, as well as from pagans abroad.

Not to worry. We all have disagreements, and they don't hold a candle to the importance of knowing Christ. God bless!

 

[marks]

no real difference in any of them except that they use different words for the same statements.

To me, that's the difference. He makes different statements, and each mean what it says for itself.

Much love!

 

[marks]

With all due respect, I think the Olivet Discourse was largely a Jewish prophecy, focused on the fate of the nation Israel. The phrase, "all flesh would die," has reference, therefore, to the Jewish people specifically, who have endured many centuries of hardship and in fact a threat to their existence.

I'm thinking where Jesus said, for the sake of the Elect - I agree, this is a Jewish prophecy - this is His chosen nation Israel. For the sake of the chosen, those days have been cut short. Everyone would be dead unless those days be cut short, but for the sake of sparing Israel, it's been cut short.

To me, this is how Matthew reads, while Luke reads more the way you are looking at.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The city was destroyed by babylon. So that would not make it the great tribulation.

What? No, the city and the sanctuary were destroyed by the Roman armies long ago.

No. All we have to do is read the passage and interpret it in light of itself and the rest of scripture.

you also have to look in context of what Jesus was asked and answer those three questions.

No, He was asked two questions. His coming and the end of the age go hand in hand. What about the other question, though? Obviously, the disciples would want more details about the temple buildings being destroyed after Jesus told them that would happen. So, that was one of the questions they asked Him. So, where exactly do you believe He answered that question?

 

[marks]

The constant attempt to make this historical interpretation of the Olivet Discourse into "Preterism" irritates me,

Just BTW, this isn't really how my mind works. I know that some prophecies have been fulfilled, and some not, and the only way those labels have any significance is if they are referenced to something in particular. Such as, I have a futurist view such and such prophecy.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matt concerned the end of the age, or the end of the time of the gentiles. When the final Roman Empire will be destroyed at the return of Christ.

Matthew 24 records Jesus as saying that the temple buildings standing at that time would be destroyed. And it records the disciples' question about that. But, somehow, it doesn't record His answer to that question? I can't take that seriously.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Daniel 9:24 LITV
24) Seventy weeks are decreed as to your people, and as to your holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make atonement for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.

For myself, I find this here:

Romans 11:25-27 LITV
25) For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be wise within yourselves, that hardness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the nations comes in;
26) and so all Israel will be saved, even as it has been written, "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
27) And this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins."

Isaiah 59:20-21 LITV
20) And the Redeemer comes to Zion, and to those in Jacob who turn back from their rebellion, declares Jehovah.
21) As for Me, this is My covenant with them, says Jehovah: My Spirit who is on you, and My Words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your seed, or out of the mouth of your seed's seed, from now on and forever, says Jehovah.

Much love!

So many like this

I think of this

Ez 37: 11 Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settleyou in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’”

21 and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defilethemselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding,[b] and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We don;t know what Dan 9: 24 is about?

read Dan 9: 1 - 23 to get the context

if you do not want to know what Dan 9: 24 is about its because you do not want to

I showed you what it's about in my post. Your didn't respond specifically to anything I said. That's quite telling.

How can you think I don't want to know what Daniel 9:24 is about when I created a long post showing exactly what it's about? Your lack of even attempting to refute anything I said says a lot. You know you can't.

And you are doing nothing at all to indicate how exactly you think Daniel 9:24 will be fulfilled. Are you afraid to attempt to do that?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Matthew 24 records Jesus as saying that the temple buildings standing at that time would be destroyed. And it records the disciples' question about that. But, somehow, it doesn't record His answer to that question? I can't take that seriously.

Matt 24 records jesus speaking of the abomination of desolation. Which has not occured till this day

He spoke of the great tribulation. Which he said no flesh (Not flesh means no living thing) would survive. That was not even possible until the past 100 years.

People who say otherwise. Well I just can;t take that seriously. (yes, I can talk that way to if thats the way you want to talk)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I showed you what it's about in my post. Your didn't respond specifically to anything I said. That's quite telling.

How can you think I don't want to know what Daniel 9:24 is about when I created a long post showing exactly what it's about? Your lack of even attempting to refute anything I said says a lot. You know you can't.

And you are doing nothing at all to indicate how exactly you think Daniel 9:24 will be fulfilled. Are you afraid to attempt to do that?

You gave me your opinion of what it was about. You were in error

I can prove this if and when you bring Dan 9 1 - 23 in the picture.

But I doubt you will. Because something tells me you know what it says.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

it did not say he would forgive their transgressions, it said it was given for THEM to make an end of their transgressions

Are you kidding me here? Are you even thinking at all about what you're saying? If they can end their own transgressions then they wouldn't need Jesus! Think! Everyone needs Jesus! Everyone sins and needs to repent and believe in Jesus so that their sins can be forgiven. No one can make an end of their own transgressions and sins. You are making it as if sinful people can accomplish what only the sinless Jesus could accomplish!

You could not be more wrong. Your interpreting the passage by your belief, not allowing the passage (the whole) to form your belief.

again, read 1 - 23.. What was Dan praying about. Why was he praying. Why was Israel in that situation?

You can;t ignore that

Yet, you do nothing to refute anything I said and you do nothing to show how exactly you think Daniel 9:24 will be fulfilled. Daniel 9:1-23 has nothing to do with Daniel 9:24-27. Daniel 9:24-27 is its own prophecy.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matt 24 records jesus speaking of the abomination of desolation. Which has not occured till this day

He spoke of the great tribulation. Which he said no flesh (Not flesh means no living thing) would survive. That was not even possible until the past 100 years.

You ignore the context. He was speaking of no flesh in Judea, not in the world. That's why He said those in Judea need to flee into the mountains. He didn't say everyone in the world needed to flee.

People who say otherwise. Well I just can;t take that seriously. (yes, I can talk that way to if thats the way you want to talk)

I don't mind talking that way, obviously. But, I don't do nonsensical things like you such as making a prophecy regarding things happening in Judea and Jerusalem into a global event.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You gave me your opinion of what it was about. You were in error

I can prove this if and when you bring Dan 9 1 - 23 in the picture.

But I doubt you will. Because something tells me you know what it says.

Why do you need me to bring it into the picture? Just tell me how exactly you think the making an end of sins will be fulfilled, for example. Just start with one of the six things listed in Daniel 9:24 if that makes it easier.

 

[jeffweeder]

Jesus put an end to the penalty of sin to those who are his

he did not put an end to sin, we still sin

but again, its not about Us, its about israel.. who has been in sin since long before she was taken captive by babylon

It is not about us , Israel or anyone else. Its all about Messiah saving the world through his blood to put away our sins.



5 This is the message [of God’s promised revelation] which we have heard from Him and now announce to you, that God is Light [He is holy, His message is truthful, He is perfect in righteousness], and in Him there is no darkness at all [no sin, no wickedness, no imperfection]. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness [of sin], we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we [really] walk in the Light [that is, live each and every day in conformity with the precepts of God], as He Himself is in the Light, we have [true, unbroken] fellowship with one another [He with us, and we with Him], and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin [by erasing the stain of sin, keeping us cleansed from sin in all its forms and manifestations].

8 If we say we have no sin [refusing to admit that we are sinners], we delude ourselves and the truth is not in us. [His word does not live in our hearts.] 9 If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just [true to His own nature and promises], and will forgive our sins and cleanse us continually from all unrighteousness [our wrongdoing, everything not in conformity with His will and purpose]. 10 If we say that we have not sinned [refusing to admit acts of sin], we make Him [out to be] a liar [by contradicting Him] and His word is not in us.

We can never put an end to our own sins. Only Jesus can put away our sins and keep us continually cleansed

Forever in his debt.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Personally, I think this answers better to Jesus' discourse in Luke,

Luke 21:20-24 LITV
20) And when you see Jerusalem being encircled by armies, then recognize that its destruction has come near.
21) Then let those in Judea flee into the mountains; and those in its midst, let them go out. And those in the open spaces, let them not go into her.
22) For these are days of vengeance when all things that have been written are to be fulfilled.
23) But woe to the pregnant women, and the ones suckling in those days; for great distress will be on the earth and wrath on this people.
24) And they will fall by the mouth of the sword and will be led captive to all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trodden down by nations, until the times of the nations are fulfilled.

Jesus' prophecy here is of Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, ending with the the captivity until the fulfilling of the times of the gentiles.

On the other hand,

Matthew 24:15-21 LITV
15) Then when you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (the one reading, let him understand),
16) then let those in Judea flee into the mountains;
17) the one on the housetop, let him not go down to take anything out of his house;
18) and the one in the field, let him not turn back to take his garment.
19) But woe to the ones having a child in womb, and to those suckling in those days!
20) And pray that your flight will not occur in winter nor in a sabbath.
21) For there will be great affliction, such as has not happened from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever will be.

In Matthew's discourse, Jesus is prophesying the abomination of desolation ala Daniel, and subsequent flight from Judea, followed by affliction that would end all life if not cut short, ending in Jesus' return and rescue of His chosen.

Much love!

I don't get it at all when people try to act as if Luke 21:20-24a and Matthew 24:15-21 are not parallel passages even though they so clearly are. They have obvious similarities. The differences are only because of the different audiences for each. Luke was writing to Gentiles and Matthew was writing to Jews. So, it would make no sense for Luke to tell Gentiles about something prophesied by Daniel when they would not have been familiar with Daniel's prophecies. So, he spelled it out to his Gentile audience instead of referencing Daniel.

Do you believe Luke 21 is an account of the Olivet Discourse? If so, then you think that Jesus on two separate occasions during the Olivet Discourse said "let those in Judea flee into the mountains" with two entirely different contexts? That makes no sense. Why would He do that? That would have confused the disciples to no end.

Why are you making Matthew 24:15-21 into a global event (everyone in the world dying if it's not cut short) when Jesus only said those in Judea would need to flee, not everyone in the world? You are taking His words completely out of context.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Are you kidding me here? Are you even thinking at all about what you're saying? If they can end their own transgressions then they wouldn't need Jesus! Think! Everyone needs Jesus! Everyone sins and needs to repent and believe in Jesus so that their sins can be forgiven. No one can make an end of their own transgressions and sins. You are making it as if sinful people can accomplish what only the sinless Jesus could accomplish!

They can;t?

You claim to be an Israelite. But you do not know their law? And what God said concerning them and their sin?

Lev 26 40 “‘But if they will confess their sins and the sins of their ancestors—their unfaithfulness and their hostility toward me, 41 which made me hostile toward them so that I sent them into the land of their enemies—then when their uncircumcised hearts are humbled and they pay for their sin, 42 I will remember my covenant with Jacob and my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land.

The reason they were enslaved by Babylon in the first place and what happened concerned the promise God said he would do to them if they did nt follow him in the previous chapters of lev 26

David acknowledged this in Dan 9:
7 “Lord, you are righteous, but this day we are covered with shame—the people of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, both near and far, in all the countries where you have scattered us because of our unfaithfulness to you. 8 We and our kings, our princes and our ancestors are covered with shame, Lord, because we have sinned against you. 9 The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him; 10 we have not obeyed the Lord our God or kept the laws he gave us through his servants the prophets.11 All Israel has transgressed your law and turned away, refusing to obey you.

“Therefore the curses and sworn judgmentswritten in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against you. 12 You have fulfilled the words spoken against us and against our rulers by bringing on us great disaster. Under the whole heaven nothing has ever been done like what has been done to Jerusalem.

once again, if you people do not want to look at the first part of Daniel 9 to get context. Thats on you. Not me

Yet, you do nothing to refute anything I said and you do nothing to show how exactly you think Daniel 9:24 will be fulfilled. Daniel 9:1-23 has nothing to do with Daniel 9:24-27. Daniel 9:24-27 is its own prophecy.

No, But I keep pointing you to what would refute what you said, but you refuse to go to it..

But I just posted part of it above.. Its up to you if you want to look at it and more or not.

I can;t help you if you do not

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Daniel 9:24 LITV
24) Seventy weeks are decreed as to your people, and as to your holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make atonement for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.

For myself, I find this here:

Romans 11:25-27 LITV
25) For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be wise within yourselves, that hardness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the nations comes in;
26) and so all Israel will be saved, even as it has been written, "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
27) And this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins."

Isaiah 59:20-21 LITV
20) And the Redeemer comes to Zion, and to those in Jacob who turn back from their rebellion, declares Jehovah.
21) As for Me, this is My covenant with them, says Jehovah: My Spirit who is on you, and My Words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your seed, or out of the mouth of your seed's seed, from now on and forever, says Jehovah.

Much love!

You might be shocked by this, but I agree with you. But, of course, I interpret Romans 11:25-27 and Isaiah 59:20-21 very differently than you do. Romans 11:26-27 is not a prophecy about the future as many imagine, but rather is an explanation of the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecy from Isaiah 59:20-21.

What covenant is it by which people are saved and have their sins taken away by the Redeemer/Deliverer Jesus? Is it any other covenant than the new covenant that Jesus established with His blood? I don't believe so. When did people start getting saved under the new covenant? Long ago after Jesus was resurrected. With that in mind, why would we think Paul was talking about anything besides that?

Did the Deliverer not already come out of Zion to turn away ungodliness from Jacob? Peter said He did.

Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

They can;t?

You claim to be an Israelite. But you do not know their law? And what God said concerning them and their sin?

I don't claim to be a natural Israelite (a physical descendant of the nation of Israel). I claim to be a Spiritual Israelite. Do you not know the difference? How do you interpret this passage:

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Lev 26 40 “‘But if they will confess their sins and the sins of their ancestors—their unfaithfulness and their hostility toward me, 41 which made me hostile toward them so that I sent them into the land of their enemies—then when their uncircumcised hearts are humbled and they pay for their sin, 42 I will remember my covenant with Jacob and my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land.

The reason they were enslaved by Babylon in the first place and what happened concerned the promise God said he would do to them if they did nt follow him in the previous chapters of lev 26

David acknowledged this in Dan 9:
7 “Lord, you are righteous, but this day we are covered with shame—the people of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, both near and far, in all the countries where you have scattered us because of our unfaithfulness to you. 8 We and our kings, our princes and our ancestors are covered with shame, Lord, because we have sinned against you. 9 The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him; 10 we have not obeyed the Lord our God or kept the laws he gave us through his servants the prophets.11 All Israel has transgressed your law and turned away, refusing to obey you.

“Therefore the curses and sworn judgmentswritten in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against you. 12 You have fulfilled the words spoken against us and against our rulers by bringing on us great disaster. Under the whole heaven nothing has ever been done like what has been done to Jerusalem.

once again, if you people do not want to look at the first part of Daniel 9 to get context. Thats on you. Not me

No, But I keep pointing you to what would refute what you said, but you refuse to go to it..

But I just posted part of it above.. Its up to you if you want to look at it and more or not.

I can;t help you if you do not

Are you unable to just tell me how you think the making of an end of sins will be fulfilled? What good does it do to tell me to read a certain scripture when we both know that I interpret scripture every differently from you. You are the one making a claim here. So, back it up. What are you thinking that Daniel 9:1-23 says about the making of an end of sins? I can't read your mind and know how you interpret that passage. Just tell me how you think the making of an end of sins will occur. Is that asking too much? You would rather just play games? Your unwillingness to give straightforward answers says a lot.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Why do you need me to bring it into the picture? Just tell me how exactly you think the making an end of sins will be fulfilled, for example. Just start with one of the six things listed in Daniel 9:24 if that makes it easier.

How do i think the end of sins will be revealed?

where do I start

Ez 37: and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defilethemselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding,[b] and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

Jer 32: 7 I will surely gather them from all the lands where I banish them in my furious anger and great wrath; I will bring them back to this place and let them live in safety. 38 They will be my people, and I will be their God. 39 I will give them singleness of heart and action, so that they will always fear me and that all will then go well for them and for their children after them.40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me. 41 I will rejoice in doing them good and will assuredly plant them in this land with all my heart and soul.

Rom 11:
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

there are many more.. If you do not wish to research yourself I can;t help you