2 Peter 3:10 The Big Whoosh

[ewq1938]

It is you who wishes to raise a strawman!

You don't appear to understand what that is.

 

[Keraz]

The Fulfilment of God’s Word:

Jeremiah 17:15 & 18 People ask me: when will be the fulfilment of God’s Word? Isaiah 5:18-19, 2 Peter 3:3-6
May my enemies be confounded, may they, not I: be terrified. Bring upon them Your Day of disaster, destroy them completely.

Isaiah 42:14-15 Long have I restrained Myself, I kept silence and held Myself in check. Now I groan like a woman in labour, I shall lay waste to all the land and dry up the rivers and lakes.

Deuteronomy 32:34 All this I have in reserve, sealed up in My storehouses until the Day of punishment and vengeance. For the Day, when My enemies make a mistake, the Day of their downfall is near, their doom is fast approaching.

2 Peter 2:3b & 6-7 Judgement has long been in preparation for them, [false prophets and ungodly people] destruction waits for them with unsleeping eyes.

God reduced the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes as an object lesson for the ungodly in future days.

2 Peter 3:7 & 10 The present heaven and earth are reserved for fire, on the Day of judgement and the destruction of the ungodly. The Day of the Lord will come unexpectedly. The heavens will with a roar and flaming fire will bring all the earth into judgement.

Zephaniah 3:8 Wait for Me, for the Day that I accuse you and pour out My burning anger. The whole earth will be affected by the fire of My wrath.

Zephaniah 1:14-18 The great Day of the Lord is near and coming fast. It will be a Day of wrath and torment, of death and destruction. Dire distress will come upon people, their blood and guts will spill out like filth, nothing will save them. He will make a sudden and terrible end to all who live in the Land. [All the Holy Land]



Isaiah 26:11 Lord, You are ready to act; but people don’t see it, let the fire reserved for Your enemies consume them.

Isaiah 17:4-10 On that Day Jacobs strength will fail, all will look to their Maker- the Holy One of Israel. On that Day, your cities will be abandoned, because you have forgotten the Lord, your strength and protector.

Jeremiah 50:23 & 32 The Lord has opened His armoury and brought out the weapons of His wrath, for this is a work for Him to do in the land of His enemies. The proud and ungodly will fall, I will kindle a fire in your towns, it will devour all around it.

Isaiah 30:27-28 & 26a See! The Lord comes from afar, His anger blazing and His doom heavy, like a devouring fire, He sieves the nations for destruction. On that Day, the sun will shine with seven times its normal strength. [A CME sunstrike]



Isaiah 30:26b….. On that Day, the Lord will save His people and heal their wounds.

Psalm 149:1-9 Sing to the Lord a new song, sing His praises in the assembly of His loyal servants. Let the people of Zion exult in their Maker and King. For the Lord accepts the service of His people and crowns the lowly with victory. Let the high praises of God be on their lips and a two edged sword in their hand to deal vengeance on the nations and punish the heathen, as is decreed upon them. This is glory for all who obey the Lord. Every faithful Christian.

Reference: Revised English Bible.

 

[Taken]

While the Church will be on this earth during this Gospel age when "great tribulation" will come against the Church, the Church will be raptured on the last day of this age when the wrath of God through fiery judgment will come down from God out of heaven to utterly destroy all who are left alive on this earth on that day.

There are many reasons that Christ allows His Church to suffer "great tribulation" during this age of the Gospel.

Why? Many reasons? What reasons? TY

 

[Truth7t7]

While the Church will be on this earth during this Gospel age when "great tribulation" will come against the Church, the Church will be raptured on the last day of this age when the wrath of God through fiery judgment will come down from God out of heaven to utterly destroy all who are left alive on this earth on that day.

There are many reasons that Christ allows His Church to suffer "great tribulation" during this age of the Gospel.

The Great Tribulation will be a "Future" time of great trouble, never seen in earth's history, this takes place "After" the literal individual human (The Man Of Sin) (The Beast) is revealed to the world, this Great Tribulation will be for a period of 3.5 years, and it didn't start in 70AD Jerusalem as reformed theology teaches

 

[rwb]

Why? Many reasons? What reasons? TY

I find it hard to believe that one who professes to be in Christ would not know the Church in this world must endure "great tribulation" until the end of this age??? Every tribulation and trial is great for the believer who called to keep the faith even unto death!

Romans 5:3-6 (KJV) And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Ephesians 3:13 (KJV) Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

 

[rwb]

The Great Tribulation will be a "Future" time of great trouble, never seen in earth's history, this takes place "After" the literal individual human (The Man Of Sin) (The Beast) is revealed to the world, this Great Tribulation will be for a period of 3.5 years, and it didn't start in 70AD Jerusalem as reformed theology teaches

This is the time/age/era of the Church, the Gospel age while Christ is building His Kingdom as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the earth in the power of the Holy Spirit. There has never been any entity on this earth that has suffered greater tribulation and continued not only to endure through all, but even continues to grow. There is not a single passage in Scripture that limits the "great tribulation" the Church is called to endure to a mere 3.5 years as you imagine. The man of sin, called antichrists has been on this earth from the beginning, and will be revealed when the Kingdom is complete, and the Church is caught up to meet the Lord in the air. AD 70 is God's judgment poured upon a disobedient people, and written to be an example for Christ's Church on earth.

 

[Truth7t7]

This is the time/age/era of the Church, the Gospel age while Christ is building His Kingdom as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the earth in the power of the Holy Spirit. There has never been any entity on this earth that has suffered greater tribulation and continued not only to endure through all, but even continues to grow. There is not a single passage in Scripture that limits the "great tribulation" the Church is called to endure to a mere 3.5 years as you imagine. The man of sin, called antichrists has been on this earth from the beginning, and will be revealed when the Kingdom is complete, and the Church is caught up to meet the Lord in the air. AD 70 is God's judgment poured upon a disobedient people, and written to be an example for Christ's Church on earth.

You Present Standard Reformed Eschatology

"The Great Tribulation" will be a future time surrounding the individual evil human (The Man Of Sin) (The Beast)
That will "Start" when Matthew 24:15 in Daniel's AOD takes place in the "Future"

At this time the "Future" Church flees Jerusalem, as Matthew 24:21 takes place in the "Future" Great Tribulation

Daniel's AOD will start the "Future" Great Tribulation, this AOD is unfulfilled, contrary to reformed preterist teachings

Daniel's AOD and The Great Tribulation are "Future" events that are unfulfilled

 

[rwb]

You Present Standard Reformed Eschatology

The Great tribulation will be a future time surrounding (The Man Of Sin) (The Beast)
That will fulfill Matthew 24:15 in Daniel's AOD in the "Future"

At this time the "Future" Church flees Jerusalem, as Matthew 24:21 takes place in the "Future" Great Tribulation

Daniel's AOD will start the "Future" Great Tribulation, this AOD is unfulfilled, contrary to the reformed preterist teachings

Daniel's AOD and The Great Tribulation these are "Future" events that are unfulfilled

I present Biblical truth! Since the Bible proves your doctrine to be erroneous you cannot biblically refute, you throw out labels. I've noticed you label anyone who disagrees with you. Why is that? If your doctrine is Biblical, you should be able to prove that which you assume?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Again, Peter indicates that it is something that could happen in the lifetimes of his readers, which is why he said what he did in 2 Peter 3:11. But, in your view, the destruction of the earth by fire cannot possibly happen during the lifetimes of any of Peter's readers.

I still don't understand your objection. Are you saying that Peter expected God to set up the NHNE in his lifetime? If not, then why does it matter?

How can 1,000 years come suddenly and unexpectedly?

Try to think this through please. When the Bible speaks about the "day" of the Lord, it refers to a particular period of history during which God will vindicate his holy name. This time period is symbolically represented as a thousand years. It might be more. Who knows? The first and primary event, which marks the beginning of that time period is the coming of Jesus Christ. Since the Second Advent and the first day of the "day" of the lord are the same, both are said to "come like a thief in the night."

Did I say a thousand years would come suddenly and unexpectedly? I don't think I did.

Yes, you indicated that Paul wrote about a different day of the Lord than Peter did.

I believe you misunderstood. Perhaps you are reading your own view into mine? I don't know. The Day of the Lord is not a single 24 hour period.

They are not talking about different things! Maybe you see it as the same day of the Lord, but the destruction they talk about is the same. There is no basis whatsoever for thinking otherwise. In each case they indicate that the destruction accompanies the initial arrival of the day of the Lord.

Your interpretation is one plausible interpretation of this passage. It is not the only one. The text of 2 Peter 3 doesn't rule out my interpretation. And a review of the rest of the Bible will bear me out.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You used the word consummation in the context of the beginning of something when the definition of the word is that it is used to describe the end of something. So, you created your own definition of the word that doesn't exist in reality. If you can't understand what I'm telling you by now then this is hopeless.

I agree. It's hopeless.

So, rather than just acknowledging that you used the word inappropriately, you put the onus on me to understand what you mean. LOL!

Welcome to Biblical exegesis!

 

[rwb]

Try to think this through please. When the Bible speaks about the "day" of the Lord, it refers to a particular period of history during which God will vindicate his holy name. This time period is symbolically represented as a thousand years. It might be more. Who knows? The first and primary event, which marks the beginning of that time period is the coming of Jesus Christ. Since the Second Advent and the first day of the "day" of the lord are the same, both are said to "come like a thief in the night."

Cady & Zoe, how do you not realize the period of history you see as when God will vindicate His holy name is the Day of the Lord the prophets foretell would come? Did the Day of the Lord not come when the promised Messiah came to this earth a man? Are we not currently living in and have been living in the Day of the Lord since the advent of Christ, when all that was written of Him must be fulfilled? Will the Day of the Lord not have a final Day when He comes the second time? When the final Day of the Lord we are currently living through comes with the second coming, it will be to gather His Church from this earth then send down fire from heaven to destroy this current earth to make it new again. What would be the purpose of Christ extending another literal ONE thousand years to this earth since His coming again will usher in the new heaven and new earth wherein dwells only the righteous? Christ will come again when the Kingdom is complete. ONE thousand more years makes zero sense because no one will be eternally saved after the Kingdom is complete.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I'm saying it potentially can happen in the lifetimes of any of his readers because otherwise it wouldn't make sense for him to say that we need to be careful about living holy and godly lives while looking forward to that day. So, what he means is that we need to make sure we're on God's good side (need to make sure we are Christians) if that day comes in our lifetimes or else we will experience the wrath that Peter described. Why else would he say what he did in 2 Peter 3:11?

Well, think about it. You say it potentially can happen in their lifetime. But it didn't happen in their lifetime. Does that make Peter a liar? Did Peter give his readers false hope? No, I don't think so. Why? Because his point is true whether or not the NHNE happens in their life time. It doesn't matter when it happens as long as it DOES happen.

Don't forget, those who actually experience the NHNE also experience the resurrection from the dead. Given that this is the case, then every person resurrected from the dead to eternal life will experience the NHNE, and since the resurrection precedes the NHNE, then it happens in the lifetime of all believers.

Right?

I expect that it can. Why not? From my perspective, we're talking about the day Christ returns here. Why would I not expect that could take place in my lifetime?

Well here is a difference between our views. Peter's explicit subject matter is the Day of the Lord, which you and I both agree begins with the coming of Jesus. We only differ on how long that day lasts.

How in the world can fire that comes down on the earth long after we're dead affect us?

Why would you expect that?

I believe that we will first be gathered to Him and then He will burn up the earth and then history ends. I see the GWTJ as occurring during eternity. Do you see it as occurring during history? Imagine how long it would take to judge billions of people. I can't see that as occurring within the realm of time.

We agree on many things. I also agree that we are gathered to him and that he will burn up the earth and then history ends. I would simply add a thousand years between our being gathered to him and the earth being burned up.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes, His will be done on earth, and it will be on earth after this first earth passes away.

The New Jerusalem will come down from heaven as a bride adorned for her husband with the new heaven and new earth. That's when "thy will be done on earth" because only His people will dwell with Him there.

Revelation 21:1-2 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:3 (KJV) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

I suppose that is true, but that is not what the Lord's prayer has in mind. Remember, it opens this way, "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name . . ." Some people mistakenly hear this as "Holy IS your name" but the actual meaning is "Make your name holy . . ." This petition can only be fulfilled in this age and on the old earth.

 

[Truth7t7]

I present Biblical truth! Since the Bible proves your doctrine to be erroneous you cannot biblically refute, you throw out labels. I've noticed you label anyone who disagrees with you. Why is that? If your doctrine is Biblical, you should be able to prove that which you assume?

Do you believe Matthew 24:15 in Daniel's AOD has been fulfilled, if so when and how?

Matthew 24:15KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

 

[CadyandZoe]

Cady & Zoe, how do you not realize the period of history you see as when God will vindicate His holy name is the Day of the Lord the prophets foretell would come? Did the Day of the Lord not come when the promised Messiah came to this earth a man?

No. It didn't. When Jesus came he preached, "Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand." The kingdom of God was "at hand" because the King had arrived. But the "Day of the Lord" is a different matter. The Day of the Lord is a time period when God will vindicate his reputation.

Are we not currently living in and have been living in the Day of the Lord since the advent of Christ, when all that was written of Him must be fulfilled?

No. The Day of the Lord is a time period when God proves to the nations that he is able to take a people for himself, bless them materially, allow them to worship him in peace, and protect them from their enemies. And also during that time, a people will decide to take Yahweh to be their God and obey his commandments.

Will the Day of the Lord not have a final Day when He comes the second time?

No. The process of God vindicating his name begins, not ends with the Second Advent.

When the final Day of the Lord we are currently living through comes with the second coming, it will be to gather His Church from this earth then send down fire from heaven to destroy this current earth to make it new again. What would be the purpose of Christ extending another literal ONE thousand years to this earth since His coming again will usher in the new heaven and new earth wherein dwells only the righteous?

The purpose of the Day of the Lord is for God to vindicate his holy name. In order for this to happen, he must live among his people and rule over the entire word in the presence of the other nations.

Christ will come again when the Kingdom is complete. ONE thousand more years makes zero sense because no one will be eternally saved after the Kingdom is complete.

If God needs a thousand years, I think I can wait.

 

[rwb]

I suppose that is true, but that is not what the Lord's prayer has in mind. Remember, it opens this way, "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name . . ." Some people mistakenly hear this as "Holy IS your name" but the actual meaning is "Make your name holy . . ." This petition can only be fulfilled in this age and on the old earth.

It is being fulfilled in this age as His spiritual Kingdom in heaven is being complete. That is how His will is done on earth and how it will be fulfilled on the new earth that comes down with new Jerusalem, the holy city prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. We don't see the will of the Father being fulfilled on this earth because it is not physically being fulfilled here, but is being fulfilled spiritually, partly here and fully in heaven.

 

[rwb]

Do you believe Matthew 24:15 in Daniel's AOD has been fulfilled, if so when and how?

Matthew 24:15KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

I'll answer your question with a question of my own. Do you know what abomination of desolation means? If you know what it means, you will know when, where and how it is being, has been, and will be fulfilled in this era known as the Gospel age as the Kingdom of God is being built through His Church on earth through "great tribulation".

 

[CadyandZoe]

It is being fulfilled in this age as His spiritual Kingdom in heaven is being complete. That is how His will is done on earth and how it will be fulfilled on the new earth that comes down with new Jerusalem, the holy city prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. We don't see the will of the Father being fulfilled on this earth because it is not physically being fulfilled here, but is being fulfilled spiritually, partly here and fully in heaven.

As I say, God's purpose to vindicate his holy name MUST be done in this age and on this old earth.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The Great Tribulation will be a "Future" time of great trouble, never seen in earth's history, this takes place "After" the literal individual human (The Man Of Sin) (The Beast) is revealed to the world, this Great Tribulation will be for a period of 3.5 years, and it didn't start in 70AD Jerusalem as reformed theology teaches

Can you point me to the passage where it says that the GT is 3-1/2 years?

 

[Truth7t7]

Don't forget, those who actually experience the NHNE also experience the resurrection from the dead. Given that this is the case, then every person resurrected from the dead to eternal life will experience the NHNE, and since the resurrection precedes the NHNE, then it happens in the lifetime of all believers.

Wrong

The NHNE takes place "After" this earth is dissolved by the Lord's fire in final judgment, a completely "New Creation"

It doesn't happen in the lifetime of all believers as you claim